Interesting look at Marja firefights and analysis by former Marine

[Dougw47]

From these old eyes, I could not see anything to shoot at but sand and the horizon. Not good, and not fun.

From another thread post, looks like they needed a "miracle rifle," maybe a heat-seeking bullet? Just kidding...but I think like the guy that wanted a DMR.

But, outside of conserving ammo...I thought the Sgt was doing pretty well, at least he did not call for "Fix Bayonets" and charge. Oh, we don't do that now.

Y'all go on back to posting...I'll hush now. Til later!

[Retired15T]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

And as the article in question points out, the numbers lost to enemy gunfire specifically in Afghanistan since we arrived there look like an average single month in Vietnam.

Not even. You've been mis-informed or have mis-understood something.

We've been in Afghanistan for a LONG time. Since October 2001 IIRC. We were in that country before we went into Iraq in 2003. The casualties have only very recently gone up due to the troops leaving Iraq in the hands of the Iraqi's and the slowly advancing numbers of American's moving to Afghanistan. Afghanistan had the LOWEST numbers for many years until recently. Anytime there's a buildup in forces, our loses are going to be greater as the new guys figure out the terrain, the enemy and the environment.

These religious nut cases want to kill American's. First, they were doing that mainly in Iraq. Now, however, since we are pulling out of Iraq and are dedicating more and more forces to Afghanistan, those nutjobs are moving themselves there to be able to kill American's. That's why the casualties have gone up and it has only been very recently. Now that the services are fielding some longer reaching weapons other than the M4, those numbers will start to creep back down as the enemy dead #'s steadily increase.

[TPAW]

Retired 15T states:

Vietnam had a drafted force for the most part. These guys in the desert are there voluntarily. You can bet your ass they took their training and their tactics more seriously than a drafted person would, which also translates to fewer casualties on our part.

Your blowing a lot of smoke. I beat the bush in Vietnam with plenty of draftees. We all took our jobs serioulsy. You had to if you wanted to stay alive and hopefully go home in one piece.

[tirod]

As you said, it's a discussion for another time.

Further, no sense starving the Afghan farmer for raising the same crop his grandfather did. It's seriously counterproductive to take away a cash crop and give him nothing else to grow in it's place. That's being done by CA and ag teams incountry showing just what crops they can grow and take to local market. They are working at the market and distribution level to show there is demand and the farmers can make money doing it. We have local farmers who are also Guard and Reserve working that mission right now.

At the other end of the drug trade, what good is burning flowers? It's not opium until its collected, processed, refined, bundled, and moved in bulk - which makes it a target for drug interdiction work. That's being done, too, which hurts the Taliban far more. It directly cuts into their source of funds and makes them less powerful. No sense spraying half of the province with this era's Agent Orange.

This particular conflict is going to take more finesse on a lot of fronts than shooting a few insurgents.

[Retired15T]

No, I'm not blowing a lot of smoke. I've done the research and read the reports. As well as having had many family members of mine involved in the Vietnam war themselves who have told me what it was like, the research and gov't data back up what I've said.

I'm NOT hammering on Vietnam vets. I never implied that ALL draftees were bad. In Vietnam, less than 5% of the people deployed there ever heard a shot fired in anger. Everyone else was supporting the few braves souls out there bashing their way through the enemy.

When your rear D is made up of mostly Volunteers, the guys who take the war fighting seriously suffer. And there were plenty of guys fighting in the sticks who were draftees that, had they been RA, they wouldn't have been killed and they would have fought a smarter, harder, more disciplined and trained fight. Too many vets say the same thing and trust me, after spending eight months hospitalized for my wounds from Iraq, I spoke to one hell of a lot of Vietnam Vets who back up what I've stated here.

Not wanting or trying to offend you my brother. Everyone's war means something entirely different to the individual and even each platoon in a company can fight a very different war. Especially in Vietnam. So your experience may have been one of the better ones over there. And thank God for it. :Salute:

[TPAW]

Not wanting or trying to offend you my brother. Everyone's war means something entirely different to the individual and even each platoon in a company can fight a very different war. Especially in Vietnam. So your experience may have been one of the better ones over there. And thank God for it. :Salute:

Well said, thank you. And yes, my experience was one of the better ones. I guess it comes down to when, where and who you chewed the dirt with. The men I fought with were honorable, brave soldiers, who watched each others back and gave their all. All we wanted to do is fight for each other, try to stay alive, and go home. There was no red, white or blue in my war. And please accept my apology for the smoke comment, it was very un-professional of me.
My best to you.

[kraigwy]

I'm NOT hammering on Vietnam vets. I never implied that ALL draftees were bad. In Vietnam, less than 5% of the people deployed there ever heard a shot fired in anger. Everyone else was supporting the few braves souls out there bashing their way through the enemy.

When your rear D is made up of mostly Volunteers, the guys who take the war fighting seriously suffer. And there were plenty of guys fighting in the sticks who were draftees that, had they been RA, they wouldn't have been killed and they would have fought a smarter, harder, more disciplined and trained fight.

HOGWASH

Pure, unadulterated HOGWASH.

Let me enlighten you, 2/3s of the soldiers in Vietnam were Enlistees, where 2/3s of those in WWII were Draftees.

The average soldier in the South Pacific in WWII spent 100 days in Combat in 4 years vs. 270 Days in combat one year for the Soldiers in Vietnam.

I don't know where that 5% BS comes from, but you better do a little research. Those so-call rear soldiers in Vietnam were mortored, rocketed, and probed darn near every frigging night.

Do a little Research on TET '68 and tell me how those soldiers in the rear had it.

Out of the 58,148 Killed in Vietnam, only 18,465 were 11B (thats infantry in case you didn't know). That indicates to me that it was more then 5% of those that served heard shots fired in anger.

Frankly SIR, you don't know a damn thing about the Vietnam War, I don't care who told you what or what you read.

I post this, not because I was a REMF, I was Infantry, Recondo, 2/502 INF, 101st ABN DIV. I post it to my comrades who severed in RVN, and especially to those Rear Area Soldiers listed on the WALL.

Check out the Myths of the Vietnam war, and then set back and ponder your post.

http://www.vhfcn.org/stats.htm

Sorry to the others here, I don't normally let post get to me, but there are exceptions.

[HorseSoldier]

Your blowing a lot of smoke. I beat the bush in Vietnam with plenty of draftees. We all took our jobs serioulsy. You had to if you wanted to stay alive and hopefully go home in one piece.

+1, I think. The draftee era was way before my time, but it's been my experience training motivated and unmotivated volunteers that "knowing this may bring you and your buddies home alive" tends to focus the attention and clear out the cobwebs. I can't imagine that many guys blew things off back in the day just because they weren't there on a volunteer basis.

[Come and take it.]

In afganistan the Taliban are operating in battalion strength at the most and that is on rare occasions.

In vietnam the NVA would operate in multi-divisional strength on rare occasions. The VC would operate up divisional strength on rare occasions.

most of the time locally taliban are almost always outnumbered. Strategically they are vastly outnumbered.

In Vietnam the NVA and VC locally often outnumbered US forces. Strategically they outnumbered US forces.

Two completely different conflicts. One had full unhindered supply and backing by two huge communist countries. the other has tenous but hardy supply routes under some level of survellience from both space satellite and flying drone.

[Art Eatman]

Enuf pollytickin' and philosophisin'...