Knife-wielding suspect vs. 5 armed officers - Page 2

cracked91 · May 10, 2011, 09:31 PM

Whew. Thats the kinda video that makes the .380 you CCW feel a bit like a BB gun. Regardless, the tactics and attitude with which the police approached were undoubtedly why this situation became as lethal as it did.

I don't speak Spanish, but based on tone of voice I can tell that no strong verbal commands were given, and no active plan or tactic was in progress.

Instead of isolating the suspect so that he could be fired upon without risk to others (which they could have done easily by the look of it) if need be, they did the opposite, and put people on the side of him that did not have any before. When he initially went for the officer with the AK, no shots could be safely fired because of the people already lined up at the fence. By the look of it, as he ran between officers, no officer could take a shot without a substantial risk of hitting one of the other officers they had scattered all over the place.

All IMHO, I also feel that this is one of the best videos/scenarios I have seen here to date. A real eye-opener and mental conditioner.

Shooter4Life · May 10, 2011, 09:53 PM

By watching the video, its hard to believe that those men are trained law enforcement. I am a very lightly 'trained' civilian and I can see they did nothing correctly. What a waste of human life.

I was confronted by a man with a knife some time ago, armed with a 9mm (JHP) and made similar mistakes. I didn't react soon enough and the result, 7 stab wounds to the chest and back. I am very fortunate to have been able to learn from this experience and carry on. Watching this video was a very good reminder of what happened and how to properly handle the situation. I am willing to bet, much like myself, the surviving officers wont make the same mistakes again.

mellow_c · May 10, 2011, 11:58 PM

First off... my heart goes out to the officers and their families who were hurt during the attack.
I can imagine how they must have felt after realizing how they allowed themselves to be hurt so bad, or possibly killed by simply giving the man with the knife the benefit of the doubt.
The attacker only took one swipe at the officer with the AK and it seams like that one swipe may have been enough to kill that man. This is a prime example of the extreme danger of knifes.
People are used to feeling a situation out, and you would like to think you could have a close personal conversation with someone and talk them into surrendering. But taking a gamble like that is obviously not worth the risk. I'm not saying you have to be cold and inhumane and only go off training and logic, but only after following sound tactics and not allowing yourself or anyone else to be a target can you begin to reason with someone who may potentially kill you. If they have any possible way to hurt you, you need to focus on one thing, and thats changing the situation so that they can NOT hurt you.

Again, I feel really bad for these folks. The whole situation went down the wrong way, from the reporter continuously pushing the soon to be suspect despite his efforts to be left alone, to the police surrounding the suspect like a gang would someone they were going to beat up, to the officer holding the AK in one hand and a baton in the other, to people not taking available shots, and so on and so on.

This reminds me of when I was younger when I would have confrontations from bullies, they would try to start a fight with me and get in my face, and I would stand my ground and let them say all they wanted and even push me, but I'd just stand tall and wait for them to finish. But then on a few occasions when the same sort of thing happened, the guys would actually get upset that I would not fight and then actually punch me in the face. I wasnt ready for it, and didnt expect it, nor did I actually think they would really do it. Just like I'm sure the officers didnt really think the guy would ACTUALLY start stabbing them.

Just goes to show, you can never be too careful when involved in any sort of confrontation.

Again, I feel really bad for those guys. Thats a really hard way to learn a lesson, and I wouldnt wish that upon anyone.

Davey · May 11, 2011, 01:15 AM

iPad friendly link skipping age verification. Wouldn't work on my iPad 2 for some reason.

www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DeexGDSsJn9c

bigbaby · May 11, 2011, 01:32 AM

Surprising what one determined dude can do with a knife; especially when the cops are so stupid. You can't just put on the uniform, you have to train some too. I can't think of anywhere I have ever been in America where that guy wouldn't have been taken down by the cops, quickly. I would; I guess. I mean, I am a real non-violent dude, but when your life is threatened, what can you do? That's why I try to stay out of trouble.

MLeake · May 11, 2011, 07:56 AM

Bear in mind that training may be minimal, if there is training at all, in third world countries. They have minimal budgets, and often as not no traditions to uphold.

sirsloop · May 11, 2011, 09:40 AM

Lots of training or not, it still is surprising how nonchalant the officers were around this guy. It shouldn't take training to understand that a determined BG with a blade is extremely dangerous.

MLeake · May 11, 2011, 09:46 AM

I'll give you that point, SirSloop, but I was referring less to non-chalance, and more to poor tactics and readiness.

That said, a friend of mine was a corrections officer in the Florida panhandle. He wasn't remotely non-chalant, yet he froze like the proverbial deer in the headlights when an inmate came at him with a shiv. Took a downward stab in the shoulder as a result. Other CO's restrained the guy.

Met that CO in the dojo, a few months after the incident. He never wanted to freeze up like that again.

Next time he got attacked, it was by a trustee on a road crew, who was wielding a bush axe. My friend took the axe and knocked out the trustee with one entering disarm. Training made a big difference, there.

Had another acquaintance, a Marine, who was moon-lighting as a reserve cop in Riverside, CA. Went to assist a team that was taking down a gang's house. My acquaintance was ready to deal with big, bad gang-bangers, but wasn't prepared to shoot a 13 year old; the kid pulled a cheap .22 or .25, and shot the Gunny in the gut. Luckily, the vest worked. After that, the Gunny was much more mentally prepared to shoot a kid, if necessary.

Sometimes, people just don't know how to react. Training can make a world of difference. Where training fails, experience will take over, assuming one survives the experience.

Brian Pfleuger · May 11, 2011, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirsloop

Lots of training or not, it still is surprising how nonchalant the officers were around this guy. It shouldn't take training to understand that a determined BG with a blade is extremely dangerous.

I'm sure the operative word there is "determined". It's easy for even well-trained officers to get lax because "nothing ever happens"... Until that one time it does.

Without training, and when "nothing ever happens" and when this guy was "normal" just moments before, it's easy to see how the deadly encounter could BEGIN but how they don't even seem to be particularly ready to use deadly force even AFTER he goes nuts is a real mystery.

threegun · May 11, 2011, 05:02 PM

I think some fault lies in the "nothing ever happens" excuse but I also believe that many officers are good people who hold back from using deadly force to long out of kindness.

Good tactics like "maintaining separation" would buy considerable time and allow for much more lead to be administered. In the fluid situational response system we would simply run away while delivering accurate continuous fire. This of course assumes that we have identified the threat, pulled on it prior to them committing to the attack, and have the necessary room to run.

ZeSpectre · May 11, 2011, 05:12 PM

To quote myself from a while back....

Quote:

The more I read/see the more firmly it becomes entrenched in my mind that if someone approaches me in an aggressive manner and they have a knife then they are going to get shot. No dithering, no wondering about "unequal force" or any other nonsense, they are either going to back off or they are going to get shot and I'll deal with the fallout later.

Don Glock · May 11, 2011, 06:03 PM

what's the debate about? those policia screwed up

Bubba in c.a. · May 11, 2011, 10:09 PM

Haven't been able to get thru to Utube, so I`ll try again tommorrow.
This seems like a rerun of an incedent 2 0r 3 years ago in Managua when several police tried to talk a guy down and got stabbed for their efforts.
Anyway, Nicaraguan police tend to be fairly well trained in general (although I think the Tuefler drill hasn`t made it here yet!) but grossly under-equiped. Most police carry AKs not because of a need for the fire power, but as a budget issue. they have so many left over from the civil war they can`t justify buying expensive 9 mm to replace them. Bank guards here tend to have folding stock mossberg pumps--cheaper and more effective than pistols.
Also keep in mind that many uniformed police here are volunteers, whose training and experience are probably zip. Weapons training is scant for cost reasons unless it involves ammo left over from the war, which excludes most modern pistol ammo.
I witnessed an incident a couple uears ago in which a man was in front of his house swinging a butcher kife and yelling something about Jesus Christ and drugs. Across the street was a large group of spectators and at least 4 cops standing by patiently. I walked the 2 blocks to the house to get my point and shoot camera and by the time I got back it was all over and everybody was gone. Seems like the police just waited for him to run out of steam and then took him downtown for a chat, which would undoubtably include a visit to the shrink.
Incidently, compared to other 3rd world places (Mexico, for one) Nicaraguan cops tend to be polite and soft spoken and bend over backwards to avoid violence. Obviously in this case they goofed-- I`ll try to see the tape tomorrow and see if I can add anything.

**JohnKSa** · May 11, 2011, 11:29 PM

Training failure. Poor/absent tactics. No plan.

1. The first officer down was using his rifle primarily as a badge of office. If he ever pointed the rifle at the knife-wielder, it wasn't for very long and I missed it. Mr. Roberts' comment about using a firearm as a magic talisman is right on target.

2. If you aren't going to use a firearm, or aren't going to take your responsibility to use it seriously, you're better off giving it to someone else responsible who will use it, or putting it somewhere no bad guys can gain access to it. The officer with the rifle should have hung back to provide cover for the other officers. That would have prevented the rifle from being taken out of the fight and being essentially useless to the remaining officers. When the man made his initial rush he could have been immediately dropped or at least shot very early in the attack. The other officers are VERY fortunate that the knife-wielder didn't pick up the rifle after downing the first officer and use it against them.

3. If you aren't sure you can get away from someone then don't try to run--especially if the terrain is rough. In this case the officers tried to run over rough terrain while keeping track of their assailant which inevitably resulting in their falling down and being caught and stabbed. It seems likely that they would have been better off facing him and possibly taking some defensive wounds rather than running, falling and ending up at the attacker's mercy.

4. Have a plan. When the first officer went down, the remaining officers seemed to have no idea what to do. They didn't know whether to run, fight, assist fallen officers, try to overwhelm the man, etc. So some did one thing while others did another. After the first officer was stabbed, approximately 15 seconds elapsed before a shot was fired by the other officers, even though during that interval at least 2 other officers were attacked and stabbed. There was little or no cooperative action taken by the remaining officers to resolve the situation. In fact, nearly 4 minutes after the first officer was stabbed, the attacker was still unrestrained. Admittedly he was apparently badly wounded and on the ground but it speaks to the fact that there very little evidence of any sort of organized activity on the part of the officers. Contrast that with the attacker's actions. His plan was simple and he implemented it with conviction and persistance until he was injured badly enough to put him on the ground.

5. Don't render yourself essentially unarmed by trying to do too many things at once. If you're in a standoff only a few feet away from a man armed with a knife, keep your gun at the ready. Holding a stick in one hand and your rifle by the forearm with the other hand makes you ill-equipped to bring either one into play effectively.

6. Don't get confused about what the problem is and don't downplay a threat. If you're being attacked by a determined attacker and you can't effectively get away then your goal is to disable him as rapidly as possible. The fact that he is armed with a contact weapon and you have a gun doesn't make him any less a threat unless you can't guarantee that you are able to keep out of his reach.

output · May 12, 2011, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MLeak

Bear in mind that training may be minimal, if there is training at all, in third world countries. They have minimal budgets, and often as not no traditions to uphold.

MLeak is exactly right. With a quick search on the internet you can find videos like this all day long. The officers in this video never had a chance.

When they tried to disarm the man with the knife the officer with the rifle would have been better served with just a stick and a free hand since he already made the decision that he wasn’t going to use the rifle (at least in my mind) as opposed to keeping the AK in his left hand. It left him completely open to the knife attack and unable to use either weapon effectively.
As a civilian, the biggest lessons that I learned from this video (which were touched on by JohnKSa):

1) Don’t bring a firearm into play unless you are prepared to use it without a doubt.
2) Keep as much distance between yourself and the threat as possible at all times.
3) If under direct attack by a determined threat, retreat only when it is safe to do so.
A. Be aware of your surroundings.
B. Don’t give the threat your back or better positioning.
C. Simply turning and running away from a threat with a weapon might not always be your best option.

MLeake · May 12, 2011, 09:53 AM

Another point that should be made here is that I've seen a rash of TFL posters talking about an "acceptable self defense range of 7 yards."

This video should discount that notion pretty clearly.

7 yards is the distance an attacker WITH A CONTACT WEAPON can close by the time most shooters can draw and fire one round.

It's not some magical "ok to shoot" range.

gearhounds · May 12, 2011, 08:59 PM

Yes, and even if you can loose a number of rounds and make hits within that range, a determined attacker can still do great harm before they expire from blood loss. Training to move off line while shooting makes a lot of sense over standing static. And shooting until the threat is neutralized.

sirsloop · May 12, 2011, 10:09 PM

That's why a lot of people are advocates of aiming low... if you hit in the pelvis there is a higher likelihood to instantly immobilizes a BG. While it may not be lethal, if their hips are shattered they cannot physically stand and pursue you.

ehh... if only the dude with the AK47 was not being a tool and playing around with a stick. If he actually used the gun as intended this would have never happened. Have gun, do use. Would have saved two good lives in this case....

MP9 · May 12, 2011, 11:28 PM

as I read in other forum and it is obvious , they have a lack of training.. and mindset...

But in the other hand, I am no sure about the law in Nicaragua.. for example I think there is other country where if a BG have a knife you can not shoot at him .. you need to use the same "force".. it is stupid.. at least for civilian, no sure about LE...and in other countries you should shoot at the air to scary the person first...

but anyways they need more training and mindset.. sad for them..

cracked91 · May 13, 2011, 02:18 AM

Quote:

7 yards is the distance an attacker WITH A CONTACT WEAPON can close by the time most shooters can draw and fire one round.

During LE training at a vocational school I attended in high school. We would actually run that drill at 21 yards using airsoft guns, cheesy double-retention holsters, and giving the "knife" to the fastest sprinter in the class. Granted it was teenagers, and earlier on in the year that I remember doing this, but not 1 person out of 60 was able to draw their weapon and put a hole in the 18" x 18" piece of cardboard strapped to his chest before he reached them.

I will add though that we had several LE officers that came in routinely to help teach us some specific subject areas. We ran a sergeant through the same drill, using his own holster, and if I remember correctly he got the shot off with about 6 yards to spare.

I will also add that in single retention mode (1 strap), or unstrapped completely, there was a much higher success rate, though I still think less than half of the class was able to accomplish this in single retention mode.

gearhounds · May 13, 2011, 06:54 AM

"We would actually run that drill at 21 yards"

I'm pretty sure you mean 21 feet?

Bartholomew Roberts · May 13, 2011, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirsloop

That's why a lot of people are advocates of aiming low... if you hit in the pelvis there is a higher likelihood to instantly immobilizes a BG

Not true. If you hit the pelvis there is a lower likelihood of stopping the fight than a hit to the thoracic cavity or the head. There are fewer major blood vessels there and it would be difficult to render someone structurally immobile with gunfire, particularly with handgun caliber bullets. The pelvis is usually touted as an alternative target to the chest because it is easier to hit than the head and often unarmored; but it isn't more likely to immobilize.

See these previous threads for more details:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=441459
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=416452
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235485

sirsloop · May 13, 2011, 10:35 AM

Lol... here we go... venturing a little off topic. I'm certainly no expert, but it seems logical that someone with a shattered pelvis cannot run you down and stab you. Someone with a bullet in the chest could still be physically capable of running you down, especially if they are high on drugs. If you think you can land a headshot or heart shot on a BG while they are charging you with a big blade, go for it.

Bartholomew Roberts · May 13, 2011, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirsloop

Lol... here we go... venturing a little off topic. I'm certainly no expert, but it seems logical that someone with a shattered pelvis cannot run you down and stab you.

I suspect the reason why we disagree here is that you assign a much higher probability of shattering the pelvis with a firearm than I do. Did you give the links above a read?

It isn't enough to hit the pelvis. In order to severely effect movement, you must break the pelvic circle in two places or hit the neck or upper shaft of the femur. In addition, people can and do continue to fight after having their pelvis shattered. Read this soldier's description of having his pelvis shattered by a rifle bullet:

""When I was hit I thought it was just a rock or something kicked up by an RPG. I cracked on, but the pain didn't go away. It was like the worst dead leg you've ever had."

Quote:

Someone with a bullet in the chest could still be physically capable of running you down, especially if they are high on drugs. If you think you can land a headshot or heart shot on a BG while they are charging you with a big blade, go for it.

It is all about probability. The head and the chest have more vital structures in them than the pelvis does and it is easier to disrupt those structures. If I shoot in the pelvis, I must break the pelvic girdle in two places or hit the shaft of the femur. Both of those targets are way more challenging than a shot to the head or chest. However, if I am a little off in the chest area, there are still major blood vessels, blood bearing organs, lungs, etc.

Either way, I run the risk I will not stop the threat immediately; but the chest gives me better odds. This is why even the places that do teach a pelvic shot teach it only as an alternative target when chest shots are not having a desired effect (possibly due to body armor).

cracked91 · May 13, 2011, 02:00 PM

Quote:

I'm pretty sure you mean 21 feet?

Wow, feel a little dumb.

But yeah. Whew. Been a while.

May 10, 2011, 11:58 PM	#28
mellow_c Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,862	First off... my heart goes out to the officers and their families who were hurt during the attack. I can imagine how they must have felt after realizing how they allowed themselves to be hurt so bad, or possibly killed by simply giving the man with the knife the benefit of the doubt. The attacker only took one swipe at the officer with the AK and it seams like that one swipe may have been enough to kill that man. This is a prime example of the extreme danger of knifes. People are used to feeling a situation out, and you would like to think you could have a close personal conversation with someone and talk them into surrendering. But taking a gamble like that is obviously not worth the risk. I'm not saying you have to be cold and inhumane and only go off training and logic, but only after following sound tactics and not allowing yourself or anyone else to be a target can you begin to reason with someone who may potentially kill you. If they have any possible way to hurt you, you need to focus on one thing, and thats changing the situation so that they can NOT hurt you. Again, I feel really bad for these folks. The whole situation went down the wrong way, from the reporter continuously pushing the soon to be suspect despite his efforts to be left alone, to the police surrounding the suspect like a gang would someone they were going to beat up, to the officer holding the AK in one hand and a baton in the other, to people not taking available shots, and so on and so on. This reminds me of when I was younger when I would have confrontations from bullies, they would try to start a fight with me and get in my face, and I would stand my ground and let them say all they wanted and even push me, but I'd just stand tall and wait for them to finish. But then on a few occasions when the same sort of thing happened, the guys would actually get upset that I would not fight and then actually punch me in the face. I wasnt ready for it, and didnt expect it, nor did I actually think they would really do it. Just like I'm sure the officers didnt really think the guy would ACTUALLY start stabbing them. Just goes to show, you can never be too careful when involved in any sort of confrontation. Again, I feel really bad for those guys. Thats a really hard way to learn a lesson, and I wouldnt wish that upon anyone. Last edited by mellow_c; May 11, 2011 at 12:04 AM.

May 11, 2011, 11:29 PM	#39
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 25,570	Training failure. Poor/absent tactics. No plan. 1. The first officer down was using his rifle primarily as a badge of office. If he ever pointed the rifle at the knife-wielder, it wasn't for very long and I missed it. Mr. Roberts' comment about using a firearm as a magic talisman is right on target. 2. If you aren't going to use a firearm, or aren't going to take your responsibility to use it seriously, you're better off giving it to someone else responsible who will use it, or putting it somewhere no bad guys can gain access to it. The officer with the rifle should have hung back to provide cover for the other officers. That would have prevented the rifle from being taken out of the fight and being essentially useless to the remaining officers. When the man made his initial rush he could have been immediately dropped or at least shot very early in the attack. The other officers are VERY fortunate that the knife-wielder didn't pick up the rifle after downing the first officer and use it against them. 3. If you aren't sure you can get away from someone then don't try to run--especially if the terrain is rough. In this case the officers tried to run over rough terrain while keeping track of their assailant which inevitably resulting in their falling down and being caught and stabbed. It seems likely that they would have been better off facing him and possibly taking some defensive wounds rather than running, falling and ending up at the attacker's mercy. 4. Have a plan. When the first officer went down, the remaining officers seemed to have no idea what to do. They didn't know whether to run, fight, assist fallen officers, try to overwhelm the man, etc. So some did one thing while others did another. After the first officer was stabbed, approximately 15 seconds elapsed before a shot was fired by the other officers, even though during that interval at least 2 other officers were attacked and stabbed. There was little or no cooperative action taken by the remaining officers to resolve the situation. In fact, nearly 4 minutes after the first officer was stabbed, the attacker was still unrestrained. Admittedly he was apparently badly wounded and on the ground but it speaks to the fact that there very little evidence of any sort of organized activity on the part of the officers. Contrast that with the attacker's actions. His plan was simple and he implemented it with conviction and persistance until he was injured badly enough to put him on the ground. 5. Don't render yourself essentially unarmed by trying to do too many things at once. If you're in a standoff only a few feet away from a man armed with a knife, keep your gun at the ready. Holding a stick in one hand and your rifle by the forearm with the other hand makes you ill-equipped to bring either one into play effectively. 6. Don't get confused about what the problem is and don't downplay a threat. If you're being attacked by a determined attacker and you can't effectively get away then your goal is to disable him as rapidly as possible. The fact that he is armed with a contact weapon and you have a gun doesn't make him any less a threat unless you can't guarantee that you are able to keep out of his reach. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

May 10, 2011, 09:31 PM	#26
cracked91 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 385	Whew. Thats the kinda video that makes the .380 you CCW feel a bit like a BB gun. Regardless, the tactics and attitude with which the police approached were undoubtedly why this situation became as lethal as it did. I don't speak Spanish, but based on tone of voice I can tell that no strong verbal commands were given, and no active plan or tactic was in progress. Instead of isolating the suspect so that he could be fired upon without risk to others (which they could have done easily by the look of it) if need be, they did the opposite, and put people on the side of him that did not have any before. When he initially went for the officer with the AK, no shots could be safely fired because of the people already lined up at the fence. By the look of it, as he ran between officers, no officer could take a shot without a substantial risk of hitting one of the other officers they had scattered all over the place. All IMHO, I also feel that this is one of the best videos/scenarios I have seen here to date. A real eye-opener and mental conditioner.

May 10, 2011, 09:53 PM	#27
Shooter4Life Member Join Date: May 2, 2011 Posts: 50	By watching the video, its hard to believe that those men are trained law enforcement. I am a very lightly 'trained' civilian and I can see they did nothing correctly. What a waste of human life. I was confronted by a man with a knife some time ago, armed with a 9mm (JHP) and made similar mistakes. I didn't react soon enough and the result, 7 stab wounds to the chest and back. I am very fortunate to have been able to learn from this experience and carry on. Watching this video was a very good reminder of what happened and how to properly handle the situation. I am willing to bet, much like myself, the surviving officers wont make the same mistakes again.

May 11, 2011, 01:15 AM	#29
Davey Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2010 Location: Not far enough from Chicago Posts: 394	iPad friendly link skipping age verification. Wouldn't work on my iPad 2 for some reason. www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DeexGDSsJn9c

May 11, 2011, 01:32 AM	#30
bigbaby Member Join Date: May 11, 2011 Location: Baltimore Posts: 79	Surprising what one determined dude can do with a knife; especially when the cops are so stupid. You can't just put on the uniform, you have to train some too. I can't think of anywhere I have ever been in America where that guy wouldn't have been taken down by the cops, quickly. I would; I guess. I mean, I am a real non-violent dude, but when your life is threatened, what can you do? That's why I try to stay out of trouble.

May 11, 2011, 07:56 AM	#31
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Bear in mind that training may be minimal, if there is training at all, in third world countries. They have minimal budgets, and often as not no traditions to uphold.

May 11, 2011, 09:40 AM	#32
sirsloop Junior member Join Date: January 13, 2011 Posts: 376	Lots of training or not, it still is surprising how nonchalant the officers were around this guy. It shouldn't take training to understand that a determined BG with a blade is extremely dangerous.

May 11, 2011, 09:46 AM	#33
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	I'll give you that point, SirSloop, but I was referring less to non-chalance, and more to poor tactics and readiness. That said, a friend of mine was a corrections officer in the Florida panhandle. He wasn't remotely non-chalant, yet he froze like the proverbial deer in the headlights when an inmate came at him with a shiv. Took a downward stab in the shoulder as a result. Other CO's restrained the guy. Met that CO in the dojo, a few months after the incident. He never wanted to freeze up like that again. Next time he got attacked, it was by a trustee on a road crew, who was wielding a bush axe. My friend took the axe and knocked out the trustee with one entering disarm. Training made a big difference, there. Had another acquaintance, a Marine, who was moon-lighting as a reserve cop in Riverside, CA. Went to assist a team that was taking down a gang's house. My acquaintance was ready to deal with big, bad gang-bangers, but wasn't prepared to shoot a 13 year old; the kid pulled a cheap .22 or .25, and shot the Gunny in the gut. Luckily, the vest worked. After that, the Gunny was much more mentally prepared to shoot a kid, if necessary. Sometimes, people just don't know how to react. Training can make a world of difference. Where training fails, experience will take over, assuming one survives the experience.

May 11, 2011, 05:02 PM	#35
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	I think some fault lies in the "nothing ever happens" excuse but I also believe that many officers are good people who hold back from using deadly force to long out of kindness. Good tactics like "maintaining separation" would buy considerable time and allow for much more lead to be administered. In the fluid situational response system we would simply run away while delivering accurate continuous fire. This of course assumes that we have identified the threat, pulled on it prior to them committing to the attack, and have the necessary room to run.

May 11, 2011, 06:03 PM	#37
Don Glock Junior member Join Date: September 16, 2010 Posts: 1,141	what's the debate about? those policia screwed up

May 11, 2011, 10:09 PM	#38
Bubba in c.a. Member Join Date: April 18, 2011 Posts: 49	Haven't been able to get thru to Utube, so I`ll try again tommorrow. This seems like a rerun of an incedent 2 0r 3 years ago in Managua when several police tried to talk a guy down and got stabbed for their efforts. Anyway, Nicaraguan police tend to be fairly well trained in general (although I think the Tuefler drill hasn`t made it here yet!) but grossly under-equiped. Most police carry AKs not because of a need for the fire power, but as a budget issue. they have so many left over from the civil war they can`t justify buying expensive 9 mm to replace them. Bank guards here tend to have folding stock mossberg pumps--cheaper and more effective than pistols. Also keep in mind that many uniformed police here are volunteers, whose training and experience are probably zip. Weapons training is scant for cost reasons unless it involves ammo left over from the war, which excludes most modern pistol ammo. I witnessed an incident a couple uears ago in which a man was in front of his house swinging a butcher kife and yelling something about Jesus Christ and drugs. Across the street was a large group of spectators and at least 4 cops standing by patiently. I walked the 2 blocks to the house to get my point and shoot camera and by the time I got back it was all over and everybody was gone. Seems like the police just waited for him to run out of steam and then took him downtown for a chat, which would undoubtably include a visit to the shrink. Incidently, compared to other 3rd world places (Mexico, for one) Nicaraguan cops tend to be polite and soft spoken and bend over backwards to avoid violence. Obviously in this case they goofed-- I`ll try to see the tape tomorrow and see if I can add anything.

May 12, 2011, 09:53 AM	#41
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Another point that should be made here is that I've seen a rash of TFL posters talking about an "acceptable self defense range of 7 yards." This video should discount that notion pretty clearly. 7 yards is the distance an attacker WITH A CONTACT WEAPON can close by the time most shooters can draw and fire one round. It's not some magical "ok to shoot" range.

May 12, 2011, 08:59 PM	#42
gearhounds Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2011 Location: M'burg WV Posts: 332	Yes, and even if you can loose a number of rounds and make hits within that range, a determined attacker can still do great harm before they expire from blood loss. Training to move off line while shooting makes a lot of sense over standing static. And shooting until the threat is neutralized.

May 12, 2011, 10:09 PM	#43
sirsloop Junior member Join Date: January 13, 2011 Posts: 376	That's why a lot of people are advocates of aiming low... if you hit in the pelvis there is a higher likelihood to instantly immobilizes a BG. While it may not be lethal, if their hips are shattered they cannot physically stand and pursue you. ehh... if only the dude with the AK47 was not being a tool and playing around with a stick. If he actually used the gun as intended this would have never happened. Have gun, do use. Would have saved two good lives in this case....

May 12, 2011, 11:28 PM	#44
MP9 Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2010 Posts: 116	as I read in other forum and it is obvious , they have a lack of training.. and mindset... But in the other hand, I am no sure about the law in Nicaragua.. for example I think there is other country where if a BG have a knife you can not shoot at him .. you need to use the same "force".. it is stupid.. at least for civilian, no sure about LE...and in other countries you should shoot at the air to scary the person first... but anyways they need more training and mindset.. sad for them..

May 13, 2011, 06:54 AM	#46
gearhounds Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2011 Location: M'burg WV Posts: 332	"We would actually run that drill at 21 yards" I'm pretty sure you mean 21 feet?

May 13, 2011, 10:35 AM	#48
sirsloop Junior member Join Date: January 13, 2011 Posts: 376	Lol... here we go... venturing a little off topic. I'm certainly no expert, but it seems logical that someone with a shattered pelvis cannot run you down and stab you. Someone with a bullet in the chest could still be physically capable of running you down, especially if they are high on drugs. If you think you can land a headshot or heart shot on a BG while they are charging you with a big blade, go for it.