Induction Annealing???

gearheadpyro · November 4, 2009, 09:23 PM

I recently purchased a heat induction tool for use both at work and in reloading. I use it in reloading to anneal my brass. There has been some skepticism as to whether or not a readily available heat induction tool would be able to heat a cartridge enough quickly enough to anneal only the neck and shoulder area of a cartridge. Let me put that to rest; it works. Not only that, it works very well.

I am using a tool called the mini-ductor which is made for auto mechanics. Somewhat common tool for us, although it is usually a piece of shop equipment and not something the tech owns.

I did an experiment tonight to show just how well it works. I took 7 pieces of unfired .308 Winchester brass of Winchester brand and put each piece into the coil for a different amount of time...

I timed the heating with various counts, counts were probably 3/4 of a second on average.

#0- Did not put into the coil, for reference only

#1- In coil, power on for a count of 1. Very slightly made the neck more golden.

#2- Power on for a count of 2. Starting to have spots that got hotter, slightly lighter in color
than the rest of the cartridge.

#3- Power on for a count of 3. Neck just ever so slightly turned pink at the very last instant of power on. I think that this one is just perfectly annealed.

#4- Power on for a count of 4. Neck turned dull red for the last 1/2 count. I think this one is overdone but I could see where this one is what we are looking for.

#5- Power on for a count of 5. Neck was bright cherry red, temperature started creeping down the case. After removing from coil a glaze formed on the neck (from overheating). This one definitely got too hot.

#6- Power on for a count of 6. Neck, shoulder, and top of case body all bright cherry red. Heat moved even farther down the case body, same glaze as number 5. This one is cooked. I can deform it in my fingers.

The verdict is that using a heat inductor is a very good way to anneal. Results were extremely repeatable and very fast. Cartridge #3 took about 8-10 seconds total between grabbing the case with pliers and heating it. I will be tinkering around with how to set it up to run automatically next. I'll be posting on my blog and on here with updates.

**Unclenick** · November 5, 2009, 12:06 AM

Thanks for posting the follow-up. It looks from the color like the field worked out to be local enough. Nothing to stop you from putting some Tempilaq on the case necks, same as for flame annealing, and then watching for it to melt to tell you to stop.

The color is interesting. I expect torches contribute enough air that it helps form oxides. The pink is copper, of course, but without much oxide.

Question: How warm does the coil itself get? What I'm wondering is whether you can rig an IR thermometer to shut the thing off for you at the right moment, without the induction coil fooling it?

I looked at the link, but see no technical specs for the tool. How many watts is it?

gearheadpyro · November 5, 2009, 07:47 AM

The coil gets pretty warm, but it is big enough that you could set up an IR rig to check just the brass. Most commercial type induction heaters have some form of IR sensor.
The tool is rated 1kW. Uses about as much electricity as a microwave.

B.L.E. · November 5, 2009, 09:02 AM

Another idea to control the heating would be to scan the for-sale ads for a used darkroom timer to plug the induction heater into. Just set the number of seconds you want it to be on and every time you punch the button, the timer automatically powers the induction heater for that many seconds.

Scorch · November 5, 2009, 02:20 PM

Thanks, gearheadpyro! Great post, and very well done teat!!

SLCBill · November 5, 2009, 08:14 PM

Just cause I don't know. Why do you do this again, is it for reforming or does it just help the brass last longer. I have heard of people doing this but at the time I didn't pay attention enough to let it sink in.

gearheadpyro · November 5, 2009, 08:47 PM

Annealing does several things, but it does them all by softening the brass at the neck and shoulder area.
1 Annealing makes the brass last longer because it relieves the work hardening and therefore reduces the chance of the neck splitting.
2 Annealing can make the ammo more accurate because it allows for more even neck tension.
3 Annealing helps the outside of the cases stay cleaner and also increases accuracy by sealing the chamber off better.

Annealing also makes sizing the brass easier becauase the neck and shoulder are softened.

Those are the primary reason to anneal, anybody else have some more?

vbk1969 · November 6, 2009, 07:21 AM

Ok so we know why to anneal. When do we know when to anneal a case? After how many reloads should you anneal the cases? Thanks for the great info gearhead

gearheadpyro · November 6, 2009, 07:48 AM

Some competition shooters anneal as often as after every reload, but I think that's probably a bit more than really needed. I will anneal the brass after every third loading myself. I use the Lee collet neck die to size my cartridges, and after the third loading I can feel the case getting stiffer, which means its time to anneal.

gearheadpyro · November 8, 2009, 04:28 PM

I put together a short video showing my setup and how I do it.

Induction Annealing Brass Video

Tomas204 · November 8, 2009, 04:53 PM

How much do one of those bad boys cost ???

Don H · November 8, 2009, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomas204

How much do one of those bad boys cost ???

According to the link in the first post, $370.

impalacustom · November 9, 2009, 05:04 AM

For that price you'd be way better to buy the Ken Light BC 1000.

amamnn · November 9, 2009, 07:21 PM

I have the KL machine and it cost more than $370.00, especially if you are going to want to anneal several different sized cases, as you have to get a shell plate for various families of cartridges. At the time I bought mine, you also had to pay extra for the 2 torch setup, which was the only way the machine made sense anyway.

I've seen these induction machines in use at a couple case makers' factories and they work very well. I had no idea that prices had come down so much for effective units.

I cannot agree that the annealers are a must for wildcatting, unless you are using old brass, since new factory brass comes more thoroughly annealed than you can get it at home even with a two torch setup. Reasonably priced EFFECTIVE induction heaters could change that.

http://www.kenlightmfg.com/products.html

BTW, I'd like to see the color of those induction heated casenecks that were pictured, on the inside............

gearheadpyro · November 9, 2009, 08:16 PM

amamnn:

It does heat all the way through instead of just on the outside if that's where your headed with the question.

impalacustom · November 10, 2009, 05:29 AM

Amamnn, when you go from a 357 Maximum to a custom 17 caliber you have 2 options, anneal or ruin brand new brass. Not annealing on wildcats often leads to donuts and cracked necks or crushed cases. This is a 17 Jet run 130thousands deep, and a rimless version of the same cartridge. You have to anneal on the step down from .300 to .280 or there were going to be problems.

So on the annealing of wildcats, it just depends on how crazy you go.

Jbar4Ranch · November 10, 2009, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.L.E.

Another idea to control the heating would be to scan the for-sale ads for a used darkroom timer to plug the induction heater into. Just set the number of seconds you want it to be on and every time you punch the button, the timer automatically powers the induction heater for that many seconds.

A thousand watts wired directly through such a timer isn't going to work, as you would be looking at a rating of only around 600 watts, typically. It might work a time or ten, but the timer is going to overheat and fail in short order. A timer could be used to activate a relay, with the relay conducting power to the heater.

brickeyee · November 10, 2009, 11:33 AM

Depends on how good the darkroom timer is.

Many of the older ones could easily handle 1000 W.

Big enlargers are over 1000 W, especially if they have a multi-bulb dichroic head.

A simple relay would allow even a small timer to handle the load.

gearheadpyro · November 11, 2009, 08:04 PM

The switch itself doesn't see hardly any power at all. The wires going to it are maybe 32 gauge (super thin).
I'm working on a circuit to automate the process, but it is looking a bit more complex than just a simple timer.

amamnn · November 12, 2009, 06:20 PM

That looks like a very good job of annealing-- I'll have to tell my son to get one--he's been after me to GIVE him my KL setup after I let him borrow it.

Impala--I could see that extra annealing steps could be worthwhile if going to insane lengths to wildcat from a case that different--I can't see the desire to do that--but it takes all kinds to make a world. Still under normal, sane circumstances (a one or two step neck up or down and not a crazy body reform- as in the 220 russian to 6ppc()--the factory anneals better than we can do with a propane torch--especially a single torch. The thorough annealing shown in the picture would seem to be the way to go if one is WILDwildcatting..............

gearheadpyro · November 26, 2009, 12:08 AM

I've put together another video showing my induction annealing setup, now with a timer. The timer was easy to build, and cost only about $15. I took the switch off of the inductor and plugged the wires into the timer. Now I hit the button to activate the timer, it turns the coil on, after a set amount of time it goes off. Simple as that.
The schematic for the timer is in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_ohUknmaq4

Nomo4me · November 26, 2009, 12:17 AM

Fantastic. Nice going. When it's a bit more refined (just a bit) I'd look forward to purchasing one if offered for sale.

amamnn · December 2, 2009, 06:38 PM

For what it's worth, a good friend of mine who is also a local BR shooter bought one of the mini ductors at tooltopia.com. I had a chance to sit around with him and anneal both his and my BR cases.

One of the problems with annealing cases of cartridges designed for BR shooting is that they are mainly short fat cases like the 6BR norma and that entire family of cartridges and the 6ppc, et. al. Depending upon the chamber, the case neck thickness can be very wide as compared to the case body--or very thin. In the past, a lot of us (especially point blank shooters who use the same rifle in multiple classes) who turned necks quite thin for the glovelike fit of cartridge in chamber we considered necessary also considered cases to be beyond their useful life after one match.

Today, many are loading cases for use on "no turn" chambers that are much more roomy in the neck area and allow us to use thicker neck walls. My friend and I have both types of chambers in our rifles, so we considered it a real challenge to the tool to try to properly anneal both types of cases.

We found that a little experimentation was necessary to anneal, without over annealing, those thin necked cases, but that temp-l-lac used on the shoulders of the thicker ones worked very well. In the past, we had trouble with the temp-l-lac melting from the heat of the flame of the torch, not from heat conducted by the brass, which is, after all, the whole point of using the chemical. The tool did heat the brass quickly and thoroughly, which is what you want, and there was no need to drop the brass in water after the annealing. The thicker cases were all annealed to what looked like factory standards; we lost 4 brave volunteer thin necked cases before the proper timing was found for them. In the case of the thin necks, all 6mm PPC brass, 3 seconds seemed to work, but the temp-l-lac did not give the desired indication until and unless it was painted on so close to the neck as to become unreliable. On some cases, it melted, on some it did not. Still, a look at the inside of the caseneck revealed that the brass was done through and through. I think all my cases--and it really is desirable to anneal pistol brass if you can, but has been hard to do-- will now be easily annealable.

I gave my son the choice of inheriting my Ken Light machine--which has the shell plates for most of his brass, or getting a mini ductor from me for Xmas. He was always a conservative-to-the-point-of-ridiculousness- kid. I'm getting a mini ductor for myself VERY soon. Thanks Gearhead for the original post and for the great pics and info--I think mini ductor may be seeing a sales surge--driven by serious handloaders--or at least they SHOULD be seeing one.

yellow11 · December 4, 2009, 03:25 PM

Andrew, to say your article caught my imagination is an understatement.

I awoke in the middle of the night with the thought still bouncing around in my head. Eventually, I came downstairs and started to search the internet for your induction coil but, alas, no such item is to be found in the UK.

Do your suppliers despatch to the UK... as this is a item that I really would like to get involved with.

If you elect to fabricate something similar for resale - put my name at the top of you list

yellow11 · December 4, 2009, 03:42 PM

Andrew, to say your article caught my imagination is an understatement.

I awoke in the middle of the night with the thought still bouncing around in my head. Eventually, I came downstairs and started to search the internet for your induction coil but, alas, no such item is to be found in the UK.

Do your suppliers despatch to the UK... as this is a item that I really would like to get involved with.

If you elect to fabricate something similar for resale - put my name at the top of you list

November 6, 2009, 07:21 AM	#8
vbk1969 Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: North MS Posts: 58	When?? Ok so we know why to anneal. When do we know when to anneal a case? After how many reloads should you anneal the cases? Thanks for the great info gearhead

November 9, 2009, 07:21 PM	#14
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	I have the KL machine and it cost more than $370.00, especially if you are going to want to anneal several different sized cases, as you have to get a shell plate for various families of cartridges. At the time I bought mine, you also had to pay extra for the 2 torch setup, which was the only way the machine made sense anyway. I've seen these induction machines in use at a couple case makers' factories and they work very well. I had no idea that prices had come down so much for effective units. I cannot agree that the annealers are a must for wildcatting, unless you are using old brass, since new factory brass comes more thoroughly annealed than you can get it at home even with a two torch setup. Reasonably priced EFFECTIVE induction heaters could change that. http://www.kenlightmfg.com/products.html BTW, I'd like to see the color of those induction heated casenecks that were pictured, on the inside............ Last edited by amamnn; November 9, 2009 at 07:32 PM.

December 4, 2009, 03:25 PM	#24
yellow11 Junior Member Join Date: December 4, 2009 Location: On my farm in Sussex, England Posts: 3	Induction Annealing??? Andrew, to say your article caught my imagination is an understatement. I awoke in the middle of the night with the thought still bouncing around in my head. Eventually, I came downstairs and started to search the internet for your induction coil but, alas, no such item is to be found in the UK. Do your suppliers despatch to the UK... as this is a item that I really would like to get involved with. If you elect to fabricate something similar for resale - put my name at the top of you list

December 4, 2009, 03:42 PM	#25
yellow11 Junior Member Join Date: December 4, 2009 Location: On my farm in Sussex, England Posts: 3	Induction Annealing??? Andrew, to say your article caught my imagination is an understatement. I awoke in the middle of the night with the thought still bouncing around in my head. Eventually, I came downstairs and started to search the internet for your induction coil but, alas, no such item is to be found in the UK. Do your suppliers despatch to the UK... as this is a item that I really would like to get involved with. If you elect to fabricate something similar for resale - put my name at the top of you list

November 4, 2009, 09:23 PM	#1
gearheadpyro Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2009 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 169	Induction Annealing??? I recently purchased a heat induction tool for use both at work and in reloading. I use it in reloading to anneal my brass. There has been some skepticism as to whether or not a readily available heat induction tool would be able to heat a cartridge enough quickly enough to anneal only the neck and shoulder area of a cartridge. Let me put that to rest; it works. Not only that, it works very well. I am using a tool called the mini-ductor which is made for auto mechanics. Somewhat common tool for us, although it is usually a piece of shop equipment and not something the tech owns. I did an experiment tonight to show just how well it works. I took 7 pieces of unfired .308 Winchester brass of Winchester brand and put each piece into the coil for a different amount of time... I timed the heating with various counts, counts were probably 3/4 of a second on average. #0- Did not put into the coil, for reference only #1- In coil, power on for a count of 1. Very slightly made the neck more golden. #2- Power on for a count of 2. Starting to have spots that got hotter, slightly lighter in color than the rest of the cartridge. #3- Power on for a count of 3. Neck just ever so slightly turned pink at the very last instant of power on. I think that this one is just perfectly annealed. #4- Power on for a count of 4. Neck turned dull red for the last 1/2 count. I think this one is overdone but I could see where this one is what we are looking for. #5- Power on for a count of 5. Neck was bright cherry red, temperature started creeping down the case. After removing from coil a glaze formed on the neck (from overheating). This one definitely got too hot. #6- Power on for a count of 6. Neck, shoulder, and top of case body all bright cherry red. Heat moved even farther down the case body, same glaze as number 5. This one is cooked. I can deform it in my fingers. The verdict is that using a heat inductor is a very good way to anneal. Results were extremely repeatable and very fast. Cartridge #3 took about 8-10 seconds total between grabbing the case with pliers and heating it. I will be tinkering around with how to set it up to run automatically next. I'll be posting on my blog and on here with updates.

November 5, 2009, 12:06 AM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,743	Thanks for posting the follow-up. It looks from the color like the field worked out to be local enough. Nothing to stop you from putting some Tempilaq on the case necks, same as for flame annealing, and then watching for it to melt to tell you to stop. The color is interesting. I expect torches contribute enough air that it helps form oxides. The pink is copper, of course, but without much oxide. Question: How warm does the coil itself get? What I'm wondering is whether you can rig an IR thermometer to shut the thing off for you at the right moment, without the induction coil fooling it? I looked at the link, but see no technical specs for the tool. How many watts is it? __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; November 5, 2009 at 12:21 AM.

November 5, 2009, 07:47 AM	#3
gearheadpyro Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2009 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 169	The coil gets pretty warm, but it is big enough that you could set up an IR rig to check just the brass. Most commercial type induction heaters have some form of IR sensor. The tool is rated 1kW. Uses about as much electricity as a microwave.

November 5, 2009, 09:02 AM	#4
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	Another idea to control the heating would be to scan the for-sale ads for a used darkroom timer to plug the induction heater into. Just set the number of seconds you want it to be on and every time you punch the button, the timer automatically powers the induction heater for that many seconds.

November 5, 2009, 02:20 PM	#5
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,249	Thanks, gearheadpyro! Great post, and very well done teat!! __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

November 5, 2009, 08:14 PM	#6
SLCBill Member Join Date: October 31, 2009 Location: Salt Lake Utah Posts: 18	Just cause I don't know. Why do you do this again, is it for reforming or does it just help the brass last longer. I have heard of people doing this but at the time I didn't pay attention enough to let it sink in.

November 5, 2009, 08:47 PM	#7
gearheadpyro Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2009 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 169	Annealing does several things, but it does them all by softening the brass at the neck and shoulder area. 1 Annealing makes the brass last longer because it relieves the work hardening and therefore reduces the chance of the neck splitting. 2 Annealing can make the ammo more accurate because it allows for more even neck tension. 3 Annealing helps the outside of the cases stay cleaner and also increases accuracy by sealing the chamber off better. Annealing also makes sizing the brass easier becauase the neck and shoulder are softened. Those are the primary reason to anneal, anybody else have some more?

November 6, 2009, 07:48 AM	#9
gearheadpyro Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2009 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 169	Some competition shooters anneal as often as after every reload, but I think that's probably a bit more than really needed. I will anneal the brass after every third loading myself. I use the Lee collet neck die to size my cartridges, and after the third loading I can feel the case getting stiffer, which means its time to anneal.

November 8, 2009, 04:28 PM	#10
gearheadpyro Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2009 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 169	I put together a short video showing my setup and how I do it. Induction Annealing Brass Video

November 8, 2009, 04:53 PM	#11
Tomas204 Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2009 Location: Oregon Posts: 144	How much do one of those bad boys cost ???

November 9, 2009, 05:04 AM	#13
impalacustom Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Posts: 492	For that price you'd be way better to buy the Ken Light BC 1000.

November 9, 2009, 08:16 PM	#15
gearheadpyro Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2009 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 169	amamnn: It does heat all the way through instead of just on the outside if that's where your headed with the question.

November 10, 2009, 11:33 AM	#18
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	Depends on how good the darkroom timer is. Many of the older ones could easily handle 1000 W. Big enlargers are over 1000 W, especially if they have a multi-bulb dichroic head. A simple relay would allow even a small timer to handle the load.

November 11, 2009, 08:04 PM	#19
gearheadpyro Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2009 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 169	The switch itself doesn't see hardly any power at all. The wires going to it are maybe 32 gauge (super thin). I'm working on a circuit to automate the process, but it is looking a bit more complex than just a simple timer.

November 12, 2009, 06:20 PM	#20
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	That looks like a very good job of annealing-- I'll have to tell my son to get one--he's been after me to GIVE him my KL setup after I let him borrow it. Impala--I could see that extra annealing steps could be worthwhile if going to insane lengths to wildcat from a case that different--I can't see the desire to do that--but it takes all kinds to make a world. Still under normal, sane circumstances (a one or two step neck up or down and not a crazy body reform- as in the 220 russian to 6ppc()--the factory anneals better than we can do with a propane torch--especially a single torch. The thorough annealing shown in the picture would seem to be the way to go if one is WILDwildcatting..............

November 26, 2009, 12:08 AM	#21
gearheadpyro Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2009 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 169	I've put together another video showing my induction annealing setup, now with a timer. The timer was easy to build, and cost only about $15. I took the switch off of the inductor and plugged the wires into the timer. Now I hit the button to activate the timer, it turns the coil on, after a set amount of time it goes off. Simple as that. The schematic for the timer is in the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_ohUknmaq4

November 26, 2009, 12:17 AM	#22
Nomo4me Member Join Date: September 24, 2009 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 58	Fantastic. Nice going. When it's a bit more refined (just a bit) I'd look forward to purchasing one if offered for sale.

December 2, 2009, 06:38 PM	#23
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	For what it's worth, a good friend of mine who is also a local BR shooter bought one of the mini ductors at tooltopia.com. I had a chance to sit around with him and anneal both his and my BR cases. One of the problems with annealing cases of cartridges designed for BR shooting is that they are mainly short fat cases like the 6BR norma and that entire family of cartridges and the 6ppc, et. al. Depending upon the chamber, the case neck thickness can be very wide as compared to the case body--or very thin. In the past, a lot of us (especially point blank shooters who use the same rifle in multiple classes) who turned necks quite thin for the glovelike fit of cartridge in chamber we considered necessary also considered cases to be beyond their useful life after one match. Today, many are loading cases for use on "no turn" chambers that are much more roomy in the neck area and allow us to use thicker neck walls. My friend and I have both types of chambers in our rifles, so we considered it a real challenge to the tool to try to properly anneal both types of cases. We found that a little experimentation was necessary to anneal, without over annealing, those thin necked cases, but that temp-l-lac used on the shoulders of the thicker ones worked very well. In the past, we had trouble with the temp-l-lac melting from the heat of the flame of the torch, not from heat conducted by the brass, which is, after all, the whole point of using the chemical. The tool did heat the brass quickly and thoroughly, which is what you want, and there was no need to drop the brass in water after the annealing. The thicker cases were all annealed to what looked like factory standards; we lost 4 brave volunteer thin necked cases before the proper timing was found for them. In the case of the thin necks, all 6mm PPC brass, 3 seconds seemed to work, but the temp-l-lac did not give the desired indication until and unless it was painted on so close to the neck as to become unreliable. On some cases, it melted, on some it did not. Still, a look at the inside of the caseneck revealed that the brass was done through and through. I think all my cases--and it really is desirable to anneal pistol brass if you can, but has been hard to do-- will now be easily annealable. I gave my son the choice of inheriting my Ken Light machine--which has the shell plates for most of his brass, or getting a mini ductor from me for Xmas. He was always a conservative-to-the-point-of-ridiculousness- kid. I'm getting a mini ductor for myself VERY soon. Thanks Gearhead for the original post and for the great pics and info--I think mini ductor may be seeing a sales surge--driven by serious handloaders--or at least they SHOULD be seeing one.