Webley Mk IV revolver SINGLE ACTION stuck trigger

[novars]

Hello,

I am wondering if anyone can answer a question: I am considering buying a Webley from a local person. I have not seen the pistol yet in person. He states that the Webley needs a little work -- cycles fine in double action but the trigger sticks when hammer is cocked in single action. Does anyone know why this happens? Could it need lubrication or is there some other issue that could be causing this problem.

Also, she says the caliber is S&W38/200. I have looked this up online and found some not so straight information. Is this the same as a 38 S&W round or is this something different?

Thank you

[JohnKSa]

I'm not familiar with the internals so I can't help with the first question.

The caliber question is simpler. .38S&W will work in the gun. .38/200 is what the Brits called the cartridge because they initially loaded it with a 200gr lead bullet. .38S&W is typically loaded with lighter bullets but there's no practical difference other than the gun might not shoot to point of aim in elevation with the lighter bullets.

[44 AMP]

The first thing you need to do is examine the revolver and take note of all the markings. The gun might be the Webley Mk IV, or it might be an Enfield they look extremely similar but parts do not interchange.

The .38/200 (and the .380 revolver) are the British names for the .38 S&W cartridge (NOT the .38 Special cartridge)

The original British loading used a 200gr bullet, so .38/200
US .38 S&W ammo is typically loaded with a 146gr bullet.

Without being able to examine the internals of the gun, there's no way to know exactly what is causing the problem. It could be a worn or broken part, or it could be some piece of crud stuck in just the right spot to interfere with operation.

[natman]

Originally Posted by novars

Hello,

I am wondering if anyone can answer a question: I am considering buying a Webley from a local person. I have not seen the pistol yet in person. He states that the Webley needs a little work -- cycles fine in double action but the trigger sticks when hammer is cocked in single action. Does anyone know why this happens? Could it need lubrication or is there some other issue that could be causing this problem.

Also, she says the caliber is S&W38/200. I have looked this up online and found some not so straight information. Is this the same as a 38 S&W round or is this something different?

Thank you

Could be just a lubrication problem, could be something mechanical.

The S&W 38/200 is the 38 S&W with a 200 grain bullet. Standard British military load.

[105kw]

FWIW, during WW2 the standard 38/200 load was a 178gr fmj bullet.
As was pointed out .380 revolver, was another name for it.
In the 80s I bought several boxes of it, marked that way to run in a S&W Terrier, and a Regulation Police.

[novars]

Thank you all for the information. I reached out to the seller and he lubricated it. The double action is smoother but no change in the single. Does anyone know of a Webley forum that could possibly have more info on the single action issue? Thanks

[RoyceP]

I don't know the answer to your question. I own a 38 Enfield revolver which was the competition for your Webley during WWII. The Enfield shoots the same ammunition as your Webley. While the posts above may be well intentioned I find that the 146 grain bullet shoots several inches low in my revolver. When I switched to 200 grain bullets the point of impact was very much the point of aim.

Correct ammo for your revolver is here: https://steinelammo.com/product-cate...n-ammo/38-200/

[Webleymkv]

When you say that the trigger is "stuck" in single-action, what exactly do you mean by this? Is the sear not engaging to hold the hammer back when manually cocked? Is the hammer able to be cocked, but the trigger cannot be pulled to release it? Does the trigger not reset after being pulled in single-action mode? It would be easier to diagnose the problem if we knew more specifically what it was.

Also, are you 100% certain that the revolver in question is, in fact, a Webley? The Enfield No. 2 Mk. I series look and operate very similarly to a Webley (so similarly, in fact, that Webley sued the British government over them) but the most commonly encountered examples are the No. 2 Mk. I* and Mk. I** which were both double-action-only. If the problem is that the hammer won't stay back when manually cocked, the reason could be that the gun is actually an Enfield and was DAO to begin with.

[4V50 Gary]

FYI internally the Webley action is very similar to the Colt Python in a sense that they work the same way. Very late 19th Century and requires a 19th Century level of craftsmanship to fix (or it could just need a simple cleaning).

Please explain "stick" to me. It doesn't move after the hammer is cocked? It doesn't return to its position of rest after the hammer drops?

Old thread that describes how the parts work on a Python. The Webley lockwork is very similar. https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...hreadid=20347.

If you have to send it out for repair, try Bill Laughridge's Cylinder and Slide. he trained two employees on how to work on old Pythons.

ETA: If that revolver was cheap (price wise) enough, I'd buy it just to work on it. I regret not buying an Enfield that had a push-button hammer block safety.

[Unclenick]

To the OP's original issue, and before he shoots the gun: as stated already, double-checking the make of the gun is critical here, and a more exact description of the issue is necessary. Otherwise, there are too many wrong-way rabbit holes to run down trying to guess at the cause.

Originally Posted by RoyceP

While the posts above may be well intentioned I find that the 146 grain bullet shoots several inches low in my revolver. When I switched to 200 grain bullets the point of impact was very much the point of aim.

Post #2 also pointed out that the POI would shift. Your result is typical of all revolvers. In a semi-auto pistol, the barrel stays relatively stationary (if the shooter doesn't yank it out of alignment) until after the bullet exits (before the slide starts passing much of the equal and opposite-to bullet momentum to the frame). But a revolver's muzzle starts to rise as soon as the bullet begins moving out of the case, and the heavier and slower the bullet, the more rise occurs before the bullet clears the muzzle. For this reason, it throws heavier bullets higher.

I remember doing a bunch of experiments with revolvers in the 1980s, and I found that changing bullet weight always had more effect on POI than changing the charge weight. The reason is simply that though a higher charge causes greater muzzle-raising recoil, the bullet is also out of the muzzle sooner, allowing less time for it to rise at that faster rate. So, there is a degree of compensation present when changing charge weight, whereas changing bullet weight doesn't have that.

Once the gun is sorted out, this kind of weapon is great for cast bullets, so you can get a bullet weight that matches your POI as perfectly as possible. New brass is available at starlinebrass.com, so you can roll your own without having to buy commercial loads first.

[44 AMP]

But a revolver's muzzle starts to rise as soon as the bullet begins moving out of the case, and the heavier and slower the bullet, the more rise occurs before the bullet clears the muzzle. For this reason, it throws heavier bullets higher.

ALL handguns do this, revolver, semi auto and single shot. What varies is the degree. Rifles and shotguns, too, but to a lesser amount, (at the same recoil levels, usually....

It happens because the point you are holding )pistol grips or buttstock) is below the line of the bore. Stright stocked rifles do it the least, handguns the most.

Bullet hitting high, low, or to the sights at a given range is due to the sights being regulated for a certain bullet weight at a certain speed and distance. Change any of that, and the sights are "off" for what you're doing.

Muzzle rise happens, beginning as soon as the bullet starts moving. Heavier bullets moving slower than lighter ones spend more time in the barrel as it is moving up, so lighter bullets print lower on the target. Generally speaking. These can be adjusted for, using different loads, or as a last extreme, modifying the sights.

[4V50 Gary]

This popped up on my feed and while I would do things differently, I did enjoy his demonstration of coil spring making at 11:51 min. I was taught the same thing in Fyre-Arms Repair I.

https://youtu.be/Rja3GuMtCz8?si=7_DxjAi1Q64g-qbq

He addresses the loose cylinder and timing in the video but not the trigger.

[novars]

I have reached out to the seller for a more detailed clarification of the problem. I have also enclosed a picture of the pistol. Thanks

[novars]

Picture enclosed.

[Jim Watson]

I would not buy a gun that I knew for sure did not work, unless very cheap and I had a clue on how to fix it.
But then I would not sell a gun that I knew did not work unless at a parts price.

[4V50 Gary]

Found a parts diagram.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/con...n-disassembly/

The Mainspring Auxiliary Lever (Part 39) is a Rebound Lever which acts of pressure from the lower leg of the Mainspring (Part 38). Without seeing the fyrearm and examining it, it could be dirty (congealed oil & dirt can lock up an action), the Pawl/Hand (Part 40) getting hung up. The Sear (Part 29) could be refusing to let the trigger from slipping past it and returning to its position of rest.

[novars]

FROM THE SELLER.....MORE SPECIFIC INFORMATION: The hammer cocks no problem and the trigger releases the hammer but there is resistance against the trigger and the firing pin doesn't make contact with the cartridge primer..Double action everything cycles properly.

[4V50 Gary]

Like other DA/SA revolvers, the Webley's hammer has a single action notch that engages the trigger tail. In the SA mode, the trigger tail is engaged against the hammer's single action notch. When pressure is applied to the trigger, the tail rotates forward and disengaages the hammer's single action notch. Pressure from the mainspring via the stirrup should cause the hammer to rotate forward. Unlike the Python there is no hammer block or (like Ruger) transfer bar that can break and impede the hammer's rotation.

Clearly something is intercepting the hammer's rotation from completing its forward movement. I wonder if the hammer tail is deformed such that it catches the DA sear OR if the DA sear is deformed such that it strikes the hammer tail and stops the hammer from rotating fully forward? Or it could be just in need of a detailed cleaning. Hard for me to say w/out examining it.

[novars]

The seller sent me a couple of short videos. The SA video looks very sloppy and it would probably be an unknown how to fix it. I have done very little with replacing parts so I think it would be better to skip this one and find one that is in normal working order all around. Thank you all for your time and information. It was a learning experience.

[4V50 Gary]

Share those videos please? For science.

[Unclenick]

I could be seeing it wrong, but that drawing makes it appear that a shoulder screw retains the sear in the hammer, positioned so it's nose down, and the notch it catches on is in the trigger rather than the hammer. Interesting. I'd want to be sure both a replacement sear and a replacement trigger were possible to obtain before buying that gun, though this is now a moot point for the OP.

[4V50 Gary]

You talking about Part 30 (Hammer Catch Screw) or what I would call the sear screw?

I was thinking about the sear and it works just like that on the S&W, Ruger and Python. In the DA mode, the hammer tail (tall part that sticks up) catches sear, raising it up and in doing so, cause the hammer to rotate back. Then the trigger is pressed back enough, the hammer tail will disengage from the sear, allowing the hammer which is under pressure from the mainspring (via the stirrup) to rotate forward. When the trigger is released, the tail is lowered and in a Colt, the trigger tail pushes the DA sear back and out of the way so the tail can rest between the DA sear and the part of the hammer that is above its (meaning the hammer) SA sear notch.

In the SA mode, the hammer's tail holds back the SA sear notch on the hammer. The SA sear notch looks very much like the SA sear notch on a S&W or Colt revolver. Pressure on the trigger causes the two to disengage; but in the case of this problematic Webley, the hammer's fall is intercepted and preventing the haammer from rotating fully forward.

[Webleymkv]

OK, from the picture the gun in question is definitely a Webley so my theory about it being a DAO Enfield No. 2 Mk. I* or ** are incorrect. 4V50 Gary is correct that the lockwork of a Webley is rather "Colt-like" in that it uses both the mainspring auxillary lever to both rebound the hammer and reset the trigger and the v-type mainspring. You can see an animation of a Webley Mk. VI (nearly identical lockwork to the Mk. IV, just in a larger caliber and with a slightly different hammer and firing pin design) here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9gY8tx2AqU&t=181s

The only explanation I can think of is that either something is impeding the movement of the mainspring auxiliary lever or the mainspring itself is damaged. I suspect this because the lever doesn't have to move quite as far and the mainspring isn't compressed quite as much when the revolver is fired DA as opposed to SA since the hammer has to rotate further back for the trigger to engage its SA notch than it does for the trigger to release the DA sear. I can particularly see the mainspring being damaged as this is a problem that is also encountered on older Colts somewhat commonly. Webleys are not known for having particularly light triggers and they "stack" rather noticeably in DA. It was, at one time, common practice to bend the legs of a Colt mainspring to lighten the trigger and it wouldn't suprise me if the same had happened to the Webley in question either through an intentional attempt to lighten the trigger pull or through improper reassembly.

If the lower leg of the mainspring is putting excessive pressure on the mainspring auxiliary lever, that might cause it to impede the hammer's forward travel and also explain the resistance against the trigger that the OP describes. Apex Gun Parts currently has the mainspring lever in stock.

https://www.apexgunparts.com/webley-...-s-w-good.html

While the do not have the mainspring in stock for the Mk. IV, they do have the mainspring for the Mk. III though I don't know if that part is interchangeable between the two models.

https://www.apexgunparts.com/main-sp...ey-mk-iii.html

[44 AMP]

While the do not have the mainspring in stock for the Mk. IV, they do have the mainspring for the Mk. III though I don't know if that part is interchangeable between the two models.

My understanding is that Webley used the same nomenclature (Mark series) for both the .455 guns and the .38s and since the frames (and other parts) are different, its important to know which frame the "mark XXX part is for.

Part for the large frame Webleys are "unobtainium" for the most part, and the only way to get most parts is to cannibalize another Webley of the same model.

Since the .38 Webley Mk IV served much longer, and for decades after the war as police guns in various parts of the Empire / Commonwealth, there's probably more parts still available, but its still catch as catch can, as none have been made in decades.

[4V50 Gary]

Neat animation Webley MKV. Thanks. You can see how the rebound lever pushes the hand and trigger back to its position of rest - just like it does on the older Colt Python action (I say this because I'vve yet to physically look and examine the newer Pythons).

Timing comes to mind. I wonder if the rebound lever is dropping too fast, causing the trigger to rebound too soon and the hammer returning to its position of rest before it can go fully forward to engage the primer? I also wonder if the stirrup has been fiddled with. Normally no one works on that but when you study the video, you can see how it pulls back the hammer from being fully forward. The stirrup acts on the mainspring which is influnced by the rebound lever.

Would really love to make a shoulder stock for one. Should carve a pattern out of wood and then cast it (brass). There are different types of brass and old brass cartridge cases are ideal for this. The wood would be easy. Already have the bayonet (bought it in the UK).

I really want to see the gun to see if this is correct.