Is it really safe to carry a round loaded in the chamber?

[Topthis]

Hey Azurefly...you really need to relax!! You must be a politician or are in the Media, you take a comment and then twist it in to a Wrong Quote...I said "yeah, that sounds like something I would do" twice...not "Shooting myself in the hand sounds like something I could very easily see myself doing,"...two very different things!! Also...I WAS JOKING!!! You know...sense of humor? You again make speculation that when I am at the range...I wave my loaded gun around at people. Where the heck did you get that from? You really have some imagination.
In my mind...hmmm, Azurefly you should not own any firearm whatsoever...because who is to say that when you have a loaded gun, you aren't actually sitting by the side of the highway and shooting at cars as they pass by?!? I could speculate a number of things...all I said...as a joke was that "yeah, that sounds like something I would do". My comment was about myself...you twist it into harming other people? Huh? You make it sound like a Us against Him thing...saying, us responsible people...blah, blah. Who ever said I was unsafe when handling my guns? Aren't we discussing whether or not people think it is safe with a loaded chamber or not...my opinion is that I...I...I...do not feel that having a live round in the chamber makes me feel any safer!! If my comment really makes you that angry...wow...seriously, you need to relax!! Cuz the truth of the matter is...I do have guns and I do shoot at least twice a week and have been for over 20 years. But you were right about one thing...if anyone feels that they could easily see themselves shooting themselves in the hand with their loaded gun, should get rid of them. Good thing I didn't say that...nor think it.

[rock185]

I carry a cocked and locked series '80 Colt 40+ hours a week. The chamber is definitely loaded. I can tell you from personal experience, that one may not have a hand free to cycle the slide and load the chamber when the gunfight begins. Yes, a revolver is probably simpler but, see rule #1. I cannot imagine handling any kind of firearm without checking the chamber. I too was in the military and was issued the 1911A1. That did not make me an expert in it's use. Plenty of training to field strip and clean, but minimal training on the actual use of the pistol. I carried a 1911A1 for a year in Viet Nam, chamber loaded, shot it quite a bit without shooting myself or any of my crew. I have been employed in law enforcement for most of the last 32 years. Firearms safety is a VERY high priority with every police department I am aware of. I don't know of any dept. that mandates, or even allows, chamber empty carry. Anyway, this is my experience, ymmv.

[Double Naught Spy]

Human error. He considers semi autos "the most dangerous things in the world." I don't care how safety concious you are. I don't care how religious you are about checking your gun every time. I don't care how much of a genuine expert you are at firearms. There is always that one time that you will forget that there is a round in the chamber when you remove it from your holster or drawer to clean it and BANG!!!!.

Just how does your father think guns should be cleaned that all of a sudden they just go BANG? Obviously, he should not handle guns if he is of the belief they will just go BANG!!!

You can't see that it is loaded. (This especially true of XDs and Glocks that have no hammer) You can see a revolver loaded or not.

He determines if a revolver or other gun is loaded based on the position of the hammer? Do not let him handle guns!

An military situation for which the semi auto is designed is not going to be a "fast draw" situation.

The early semi-auto handguns were NOT designed for the military, so the argument is bogus.

A pistol of any kind (revolver or semi auto) is a defensive weapon. Your rifle is a primary weapon.

Whether a handgun is offensive or defensive is a matter of application, not design.

According to http://www.britannica.com/eb/article...?tocId=9060197, the pistol was originally a calvary weapon and it was used offensively in one-handed operation, thereby allowing the other hand for defense. Imagine that, the first applications were military and offensive.

Checking a bit of history of early semi-auto handguns, Eugen Schauman used a FN M1900 in his 1904 assassination of the Russian Governor-General of Finland at the time, Nikolai Ivanovich Bobrikov. The M1900 was one of the first production semi-autos, the slide encasing a barrel semi auto being invented by JMB who designed the M1900. It was used offensively and was not a gun designed for the military. The FN M1910 chambered in .32 ACP was the handgun used by Gavrilo Princip to assassinate Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria in Sarajevo on June 28, 1914, arguably precipitating the First World War. That was NOT defensive, no?

So what is this difference between "primary" and "defensive"? Can you not use your rifle for defensive purposes? As a civilian, do you carry a primary rifle with you all the time and an unloaded defensive pistol?

You pistol you pull and rack one in the chamber if it is all you have left and you can see the battle is about to begin (and then maybe put it on cocked and locked while you are in the danger zone)

So it is okay to have loaded auto/semi-auto rifles but not pistols. Is that what he is suggesting or is he suggesting the rifles need to be unloaded as well. After all, most don't tell you they have rounds in the chamber and most that he used don't have visible hammers and you don't need quick draw rifles in the military, right?

There is a reason that the military did not allow carry this way. It was not because they were too ignorant of cocked and locked. ND can and do happen.

The military appeals to the LCD of human behavior. Everything is simplified to a level that will appeal to the most people the fastest, regardless of background. This includes deficiencies in training that are taught to thousands of recruits, as well as actual all out inaccurate information, etc. NDs can happen with pistols and with rifles. The bias is unfounded that somehow pistols are more dangerous for NDs simply because they are pistols.

I would say that it would be wise to carry a semi auto with the chamber empty and a full magazine in the gun. Pull it and with sweeping your free hand over the slide, pull it back and let it go and you are ready for action. Or if you are parking your car and see you are in a dangerous area, pull you gun and rack one in the chamber but as soon as you are safe, get that round out of the chamber.

Your father assumes he will have total situational awareness and KNOW when things about about to go wrong and he believes that he will have two hands available to bring the gun into action. I guess that is his military training where his superiors told him when he would be going into battle or into the "danger zone" and so he had time to go urinate, gear, up, then load and lock. It doesn't work like that in far too many cases in real life.

But all this trouble being the case, I believe it wise to carry a revolver as a service/combat weapon and save a semi auto for field use in the military.

I am largely sold on this. A lot of people in here and other forums say the military didn't know what they were doing "back then" and didn't understand the semi automatic. (they fought two world wars, korea and vietnam with this empty chamber policy, I would think they knew far more than we do about what guns can and cannot do).

Let's use your father's classification of the pistol as a defensive weapon and put it into the civilian setting. The whole concept of the military knowing what they were doing doesn't apply since in the civilian setting, we are not dealing with military operations. You don't have your company of soldiers around you, do you, as you go into the danger zone on your way to work or the grocery store?

Since the gun is to be used defensively, don't you want it in a ready configuration, just like when the military is in the 'danger zone.' The problem is, in the military, they soldiers were told when they were in the danger zone or it was inherently known, such as when one was stationed at a fire base in the jungles of Vietnam during a frickin' military action. In civilian life, the 'war' is sporadic. You don't know when things will go south. Can you say, "Home invasion?" Can you say, "Carjack?"

There is nothing wrong with revolvers in these situations. There is nothing wrong with loaded semi-autos. The arguments against semis that were presented were misguided, in part based on errors of fact, compared against the irrelevant context of the military (versus civilian situations), and naive about the nature of self defense.

[Quintin]

I've always carried my pistols with a round in the chamber, ready to go. Including a DA/SA Sig, a Glock and 1911s.

If you keep yer dang finger off the trigger until you're ready to rock, you'll never have a problem in the world. It's not like the magazine loaded itself, then the magazine inserted itself into the pistol, then the slide racked itself, and then the trigger pulled itself.

[MEDDAC19]

I would say that it would be wise to carry a semi auto with the chamber empty and a full magazine in the gun. Pull it and with sweeping your free hand over the slide, pull it back and let it go and you are ready for action. Or if you are parking your car and see you are in a dangerous area, pull you gun and rack one in the chamber but as soon as you are safe, get that round out of the chamber.

I think you have more of a chance for problems constantly loading and unloading your gun. Also, since you know when there will be danger, (that's when you chamber a round, right?) you don't need a gun for self-defence, you can just get away from the threat. How do you know when it is safe or not?

Do you ever go out and then have something in your hands? If you have been shopping and have a package or bag in your hand how will you get your gun out and rack the slide now? Did you even think about this type of scenario?

You also open up the problem, by constantly rechambering rounds, of bullet set back. This can cause trouble for you also.

I don't know how anyone can clean a weapon, with it loaded anyway. You need to disassemble for cleaning, how can you start this process and not know whether your gun is loaded or not?

[threegun]

The decision to carry chamber unloaded is based by most people on illogical or flawed thinking. Double Naught Spy summed it up very well. The bottom line is that simply having a round in the chamber does nothing without a dummy pulling the trigger on that loaded chamber without checking it.

To me a large percentage of those who fear the loaded chamber probably shouldn't carry at all. They seem to lack the ability to properly handle a potentially deadly piece of machinery.

[Charles S]

To me a large percentage of those who fear the loaded chamber probably shouldn't carry at all. They seem to lack the ability to properly handle a potentially deadly piece of machinery.

+1

A lack of understanding means the individual should stop carrying a weapon or seek more training.

Charles

[IdahoG36]

Yes it is. it is certain people that aren't safe with one in the chamber.

[azurefly]

The only trouble is, the same people who lack the training to be able to safely carry a gun with a round chambered are unable to see that they need training, specifically because they aren't well trained or knowledgeable!

It's kind of circular. They'd have to be knowledgeable and well-trained in order to have a perspective on how much they don't know.

-azurefly

[Ozzieman]

If you dont feel your safe with one down the tube when carring a gun then dont.
I feel very safe carring a 1911 with one loaded the hammer cocked and the gun in safety.
saying that "semi autos "the most dangerous things in the world." shows a lack of understanding concerning gun safety.
There are no dangerious guns,,, there are only dangerious people.
Personaly I feel that this thread is a wast of time and energy.

[WhyteP38]

He considers semi autos "the most dangerous things in the world."

I'd say he's wrong. The humans in control of anything dangerous are the most dangerous things in the world.

I don't care how safety concious you are. I don't care how religious you are about checking your gun every time. I don't care how much of a genuine expert you are at firearms. There is always that one time that you will forget that there is a round in the chamber when you remove it from your holster or drawer to clean it and BANG!!!!. You can't see that it is loaded.

First, all guns are loaded. Period. That's my primary loaded chamber indicator. Second, I carry cocked-and-locked 1911s. That locked-back hammer is my secondary loaded chamber indicator. Third, my 1911 chambers each have a notch cut into them so I can see if there's a round in the chamber. Those notches are my tertiary loaded chamber indicators. Fourth, I don't trust mechanical or visual indicators, so I double-check with rule #1.

[Edward429451]

I don't get it.

First, all guns are loaded. Period.

If that's the case...

my 1911 chambers each have a notch cut into them so I can see if there's a round in the chamber. Those notches are my tertiary loaded chamber indicators.

Then why was modifieing the chambers necessary?

[Lurper]

I won't beat a dead horse. The reality is that any firearm is only as safe as the person who is handling it. If you aren't comfortable in condition one, then don't carry that way or carry a revolver.
Others have been much more eloquent on your post but I would add 2 items.
1. Usually when anyone needs a pistol (military, L.E., civilian), the defecation has already hit the oscillation so carrying a pistol in a condition other than ready to employ is foolhardy.
2. The military and law enforcement agencies and personel are not nor will they ever be firearms experts. They cater to the lowest common denominator usually due to budget constraints. Agencies typically cannot afford the time or money to train each member to a high degree of proficiency. Therefore, safety becomes a primary criteria when selecting a service weapon. The other factor is that the vast majority of L.E. can go an entire career without ever having to draw their weapon.
My point is that just because the military or L.E. agencies chose to do something does not indicate it is either a good thing or the right thing. Nor does it indicate a certain level of expertise.

[Magyar]

"2. The military and law enforcement agencies and personel are not nor will they ever be firearms experts. They cater to the lowest common denominator usually due to budget constraints. Agencies typically cannot afford the time or money to train each member to a high degree of proficiency. Therefore, safety becomes a primary criteria when selecting a service weapon. The other factor is that the vast majority of L.E. can go an entire career without ever having to draw their weapon.
My point is that just because the military or L.E. agencies chose to do something does not indicate it is either a good thing or the right thing. Nor does it indicate a certain level of expertise."
Lurper, good point...Almost verbatim to what Mr. Ayoob has said repeatedly. Of course, doesn't enhance the argument for either Condition for LEO's since most are heading toward DAO because of legal liability.
Personally, it's no secret that I advocate #3; only because I'm good at what I do; to each their own....

[WhyteP38]

Then why was modifieing the chambers necessary?

For one thing, my Springfields came that way from the factory, so I didn't modify them. That's where I got the idea.

For another thing, I modified my others--including non-1911s--for redundancy. Sometimes, it's quicker to do a notch check. If I see brass, I don't need a chamber check. If I don't see brass, I do a chamber check in case the brass is dirty, the light is low, there's a shadow, etc. In short, if the notch check shows loaded, that's all I need do. If it doesn't show loaded, I check and verify.

[9guy]

I didn't read the whole thread, but it boils down to basic firearm safety. Treat it like it's loaded, even when you know it's not. Don't aim at anything, unless you're prepared to kill it. If you adhere to these rules ALWAYS, you can safely carry in any form.

[snscott]

After some thought, I'm thinking we're missing the point of the original post, maybe. We all know the gun handling rules, but I think the original theory put forth was that just in general, a semi-automatic handgun with a round in the chamber, is somehow more dangerous, or prone to accidental discharge.

It has nothing to do with the rules of handling firearms. Is a SA with a round in the chamber inherently "more unsafe"? Forget the rules for a moment - no one is going to argue those with anyone. I'd say, YES, it is inherently more dangerous because there is no way you are going to have an accidental discharge with a SA that has no round in the chamber -- no matter what gets into the trigger guard or what safeties get flipped off, or fail, or bone-headed thing somone does, or whatever you want to say.

Note, you could conceivebly have an accidental discharge while observing the cardinal gun handling rules -- and that would mean no one got hurt because of where you were pointing the weapon at the time. The question is -- Is that SA with a round in the chamber MORE likely to have an AD then one that does not? The answer has to be yes.

[mabella]

This reminds me of the old story about the Texas Ranger who was asked by a non-gun type if his cocked and locked .45 wasn't dangerous, His answer was " I wouldn't carry the son of a bitch if he wasn't."

The other story is of a Ranger who was asked why he carried a Colt .45 and his response " Because they don't make a .46."

[Bullrock]

Hey Top! I heard you do this often just to pi$$ off the range master...

You again make speculation that when I am at the range...I wave my loaded gun around at people. Where the heck did you get that from? You really have some imagination.

I can't add anything to this mess, so I shouldn't be here...Having said that, I always carry decocked and one in the chamber. I currently carry a HK P2000sk. Now I know from research and shooting that sucker has a 10 to 13Lb. pull in DA. Mine is more like 12 1/2Lbs.

Have any of you good folks ever tried to get off a round with a 13 Lb. DA pull??? It's very much like shooting a GP-100 in DA. Go ahead, put your finger on the trigger, unless you squeeze the living ----out of it, the round ain't going anywhere...

If you carry decocked and you're not familiar with the DA pull on your automatic, then you're better off racking the darn thing...

[Double Naught Spy]

After some thought, I'm thinking we're missing the point of the original post, maybe.

It has nothing to do with the rules of handling firearms. Is a SA with a round in the chamber inherently "more unsafe"? Forget the rules for a moment - no one is going to argue those with anyone. I'd say, YES, it is inherently more dangerous because there is no way you are going to have an accidental discharge with a SA that has no round in the chamber -- no matter what gets into the trigger guard or what safeties get flipped off, or fail, or bone-headed thing somone does, or whatever you want to say.

Sorry, but by your logic, any gun with a round in the chamber is inherently more dangerous, be it semi auto or revolver, SA, DA, or combo SA DA because bonehead accidents and bonehead negligents do occur.

So let's just all unload our guns and be safe.

[spacemanspiff]

Walking down the street isnt safe.
Picking your nose isnt safe.
Standing in the shower isnt safe.
Cooking a meal isnt safe.
Flossing your teeth isnt safe.

[Topthis]

Bullrock...WRONG!! If I want to piss off the range master, I usually bang on the glass with my pistol and point to my gun, with a really confused look on my face...then take off my Ear Protection and say "HUH?", "What?", "No! You don't understand...there's a round jammed or didn't fire...or something wierd!" while he screams at me through the glass. Man...wouldn't that be great!!
Or else, if I really, really want to make him mad...I just bring Wolf Ammo. Man do they hate that stuff!!

[slabsides]

It's really UNsafe to carry without a round in the chamber! A weapon carried for defense that isn't instantly capable of fire is no weapon at all. Well, maybe an inferior CLUB.
A weapon on the person should be chamber loaded. When it is removed from the person: in the dresser, on the nightstand, then loaded magazine/empty chamber (Condition One) is appropriate.

[Bender711]

There is a real simple awnser to this. Keep your booger hook off the bang swich!

[Lurper]

[quote/]Note, you could conceivebly have an accidental discharge while observing the cardinal gun handling rules -- and that would mean no one got hurt because of where you were pointing the weapon at the time. The question is -- Is that SA with a round in the chamber MORE likely to have an AD then one that does not? The answer has to be yes.[/quote]

The notion that a SA auto is less safe than a DA is absurd. Particularly with series 80 and newer 1911's. The only way to have an AD with them is to pull the trigger. Even with series 70, too many things have to happen to have an AD. Series 70's have the following safeties: Grip safety - keeps the trigger from moving rearward to disengage the sear unless the pistol is gripped, thumb safety - blocks the hammer & sear, half-cock notch - catches the hammer in the event the sear is disengaged without the trigger being pulled, inertial firing pin - the only potential weakness and was addressed with the addition of a firing pin block. I have seen tons of AD's and with every single one, a basic safety rule was violated. I have heard of AD's caused by mechanical malfunction, but in 25 years of competing, consulting and instructing I have no first hand knowledge of one. I do however have first hand knowledge of shooters blaming the gun for the AD because they were too embarassed to admit they were at fault.