Alec Baldwin update

[natman]

Originally Posted by HiBC

Note Alec Baldwins grasp on the pistol and placement of his trigger finger.
I observe the finger on the trigger being an integral part of grasping the gun.

Which calls into question Baldwin's credibility when he says "I did not pull the trigger. I would never point a gun and pull the trigger"

It may be that your incompetence and lack of awareness was part of the negligent discharge, but the trigger was pulled.

I agree. I don't think the gun magically discharged without the trigger being pulled. Baldwin may be telling the truth in that he never deliberately pulled the trigger, but I strongly suspect that he depressed the trigger when he grasped the gun. It wouldn't take much force with the gun uncocked. Then he cocked the hammer and let it go while still grasping the trigger and bang.

[HiBC]

I realize this is a "What if a frog had wings" question.
I was watching vid of the minute or two before the discharge that killed Halyn.
Baldwin is posed in the church.

He is practicing ,drawing the pistol and presenting it,over and over..

It appears his trigger finger is part of his grasp on the pistol. I don't think the sear would have engaged the hammer notch. (of course,that is my speculation. I do not claim it is fact)

Is he slipping the hammer each time? Does anyone see the hammer remain at full cock?
Some contend there may have been three deadly rounds.
How do you practice drawing,thumbing the hammer ,repeat while holding the gun firmly with the trigger finger without discharging the firearm during the practice?

Its just another question.

[RobAndrew]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

You are assuming that she understood that it was the scene of a crime. I doubt very much that she did so. Without any intention of defending her actions with regard to her job, I nonetheless feel fairly certain that in her mind -- and everyone's mind on the set -- it was a horrible accident.

True, I can see somebody thinking "accident" and not crime scene after a shooting like that.

But a police investigation is a normal next step when people are shot. The number of people handling the fired weapon and the cartridges in that gun immediately after the shooting is unreal. The last count I get is at least 3 people handled the gun/ammo, all initiated by Hanna.

I think this mishandling of the weapon is going to come back to haunt her at the trial.

And I think Hanna knew where the live ammo came from.

[RobAndrew]

Originally Posted by HiBC

Some contend there may have been three deadly rounds.

I bet the Detectives don't even know for certain. Three different people handled the gun and the cartridges immediately after the shooting. Hanna, Sarah and a guy named Dave.

When the police finally got their hands on the weapon, there were other live cartridges on the cart and they had to take Hanna's word for it as to what was previously in the cylinder. She admitted to the spent live cartridge coming out of the weapon, so they have at least one confirmed live round in the gun.

[Metal god]

It’s a good question, don’t know . If you pull the hammer all the way back it rotates the cylinder to the next chamber . Half way rotates it half way and locks the hammer at half cock and that’s the position you load or unload the firearm it also allows the cylinder to spin freely . I was just over at a friend’s the other day that has a Colt single action army in 45colt . I manipulated it several times thinking of this case and thread . I’m going to swing back by there and do a deeper dive on the action and will report back .

[gwpercle]

My question has always been ... What is and how did live ammo get onto a film set and who put it in the gun .
Having blanks on set is dangerous enough ... having live ammo on set is just insane .

Who brought the live ammo on the set and how did it get in a gun that was to be used in action shots.

How many episodes of "Gunsmoke" were filmed ... How many people were shot and killed on the set of "Gunsmoke" ... few and None .
Something is strange about having live ammo in a gun while shooting a movie !

Gary

[Metal god]

I don’t think its been completely confirmed who brought the ammo on set . In that 60min episode , that was brought up . I believe it was said Ms Reed asked ( don’t remember) the original armorer or the ammo company that supplied the blanks and dummies if they would give here live ammo as well and they refused . It seems reasonable to assume Ms Reed either asked someone else or bought them her self . Regardless as far as I can tell it was Ms Reed that was pushing to get live ammo for what ever reason .

[44 AMP]

It has not been confirmed who supplied the live ammo found on the set. Unless someone voluntarily says they did it, we may never know, even if the question is asked at trial (and I expect it will be)

Possibly it was the armorer. Possibly it was someone else, and the ammo wound up in the armorer's possession. WE DON'T KNOW...

Regardless as far as I can tell it was Ms Reed that was pushing to get live ammo for what ever reason .

The reason for live ammo is obvious, so the guns can be fired. It is known that guns were used with live ammo OFF THE SET in the surrounding desert for recreation (or possibly familiarization) but we don't know at this time, officially, who did it, who was involved or who authorized it, OR who ignored it....

Things have been written and reported on tv giving several different and conflicting accounts of who did what, when, and with what.

I have seen reports that the Armorer was NOT present on the set until AFTER the accident. I have also seen reports stating that the armorer was there, loaded the gun and handed it to Baldwin.

Obviously both cannot be true....

What ever the actual truth is, the closest we are going to come to it is what ever the sworn testimony at the trial states is the truth.

Until we get that, it's all speculation and the "smoke & mirrors spin" of different perspectives from people with widely differing agendas.

The only facts that seem consistent with all reports is a woman was killed, a man injured and the gun that did it was in Baldwin's hands when it happened.

[Metal god]

Ok I not only went over and checked out his Colt SAA revolver I made a video Ok I'm new to this whole video thing so cut me some slack . If I pause in the middle of a sentence then continue . That's because I'm in the middle of a brain fart on what word to use next lol .

Enjoy

https://rumble.com/v29322e-february-10-2023.html

[stagpanther]

I don't think it will be all that hard to figure out how live ammo got on the set--there will be a scramble to throw someone else under the bus revealing a timeline of what happened when. Gutierrez is in a tough spot; all those paths lead to her in some way.

[Metal god]

Here are those case head strikes up close , Note the edge of the head actually has one strike that deformed the edge of the head . Based on my limited test it seems unlikely the hammer will fall on the primer unless the hammer was cocked all the way back and the cylinder fully indexed .

[stagpanther]

Here are those case head strikes up close , Note the edge of the head actually has one strike that deformed the edge of the head . Based on my limited test it seems unlikely the hammer will fall on the primer unless the hammer was cocked all the way back and the cylinder fully indexed .

What are we looking at here? I distinctly heard the gun used was 45 long colt--the brass in this picture appears to 44 mag.

[Metal god]

You need to watch the video I made linked in my post #259 for context . FWIW I don’t have a 45 colt so I used some 44mag dummies in my demonstration linked above .

[RobAndrew]

Are movie set Amorer's required to have certification? I know the union that Hanna was going to join has Cert classes and Safety Classes available - it was mentioned in one of the interviews. Just don't know if it's required to perform the job as a movie set Armorer.

If it is required by law, that's probably how their holding AB accountable. He was cutting corners to save money by hiring these inexperienced nitwits Hanna and Sarah.

[44 AMP]

I watched the video, not too bad for a first attempt.

I get it you didn't have any .45 Colt so you used .44mag for dummies. It would have been better if you had gotten (made) dummies from .45 Colt cases, that way there would be nothing confusing.

You had an SAA, why didn't you use that, instead of the Bisley model??

The mechanisms are identical, the Bisley differs only in the shape of the trigger, hammer, and grip frame. (also often Bisleys have "target" sights)

small technical terminology critique; couple times you refer to the head of the case or the side of the head, where the firing pin strikes are. The correct term for that location is the rim, not the head, and those strikes are on the edge of the rim, not the side.

It can be correct to refer to the bottom where the markings are, as the "base of the case" and the portion of that which sticks out beyond the diameter of the case body is the rim.

[stagpanther]

You need to watch the video I made linked in my post #259 for context . FWIW I don’t have a 45 colt so I used some 44mag dummies in my demonstration linked above .

Understood. I'm presently overseas and for some reason the video host won't play here.

[Metal god]

The Beasley is a single action army the other one I had has pewter grips on it and it was very heavy and it was easier to use the Beasley. They operated exactly the same. There was zero difference. I tested that.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Metal god

The Beasley is a single action army the other one I had has pewter grips on it and it was very heavy and it was easier to use the Beasley. They operated exactly the same. There was zero difference. I tested that.

The action is the same but a Bisley (not "Beasley") is not a Single Action Army. Technically, a Single Action Army is a Colt model of 1873 with a 7-1/2" barrel.

[Metal god]

It was my understanding Colt manufactured the Bisley ( thousands ) .

[HiBC]

Yes,and Dodge made the Power Wagon and the Charger.

Your point is?

The basic design of the Colt SAA was tweaked a bit to make the Colt Bisley.

The Bisley was created for target shooting. Better sights,a different trigger,a more vertical grip frame,and a lower hammer.

Its still a Colt single action. But its not a Single Action Army.

I have a Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 Magnum. Its the classic hog leg grip. I have a 44 Spl Ruger Lypsey Special. Its a "Bisley" version of the Ruger single action. I much prefer the recoil characteristics of the Bisley grip frame.

As far as the working designs and "manual of arms" a "standard model" and the Bisley are the same.

(The Ruger and the Colt have their differences)

[Metal god]

Thanks HiBC for the clarification , and to add the firearm Baldwin used was not even a Colt . I think the demonstration in the video is representative enough for our purposes . As I said before I did that test with the SAA as well . In fact I did it twice with both on video but didn’t like the results . The video posted/linked was my third take and I just stopped after the Bisley because it seemed redundant at that point knowing the SAA had the exact same results both other times and I believe I said that in one of my post above . I know some here are actual gunsmiths and I respect that but lets not loose sight that I’m just guy trying to help some understand the function of the firearm Baldwin used . I’m not trying to explain all the differences of old colt single action firearms . Keeping that in mind , I believe I accomplished the task . :-)

[44 AMP]

The gun Baldwin used was an Italian made copy of the Colt single action (Pietta? I think). Functionally no different from the Colt.

I will admit to having a degree of "doesn't everyone know this?" when it comes to the Single Action revolver "manual of arms". I know how the Colts and clones work and also how the New Model Rugers work, and the differences between them.

Obviously, everyone doesn't know this, and your video would be very helpful to those who don't.

I did notice you mentioned how the cylinder wants to rotate back if you lower the hammer BEFORE reaching the half cock notch. That's entirely proper and the way the gun was made. Until you click the hammer into the half cock position, the mainspring is going to push things back to their "at rest" position. There is no safety concern in this as, if properly loaded, the chamber under the hammer is either empty, or contains a fired case.

[Metal god]

The cylinder rotates back-ish even past half cock , both holding the trigger back or not . It needs to get really close to fully cocked before it stops rotating back . I say ish because it does not rotate all the way back to its original position either This was shown when I went past half cock and let the hammer go . The cylinder did not fully rotate back . We see that both by seeing the cases on each side of the top strap and the hammer hitting the case heads .

HiBC may be able to give a more detailed explanation on what the innerds are doing in that case .

[Aguila Blanca]

What's happening is that the ratchet on the back end of the cylinder is machined into six small ramps in a circular array. The hand rides on this surface, in the deepest part of the recess, and is under pressure applied by the mainspring. The hand pushes up against each notch to advance the cylinder. Until the cylinder locks into place, releasing the hammer withdraws the hand, which is being pushed into the notch by pressure from the mainspring, which results in the hand dragging the cylinder in the reverse direction.

https://media.midwayusa.com/producti...551/551520.jpg

[Photo from Midway]

[HiBC]

You did good,MG. The Bisley results are the same.