Firearm Stopping Power…a different perspective. - Page 5

Nanuk · June 7, 2011, 09:05 PM

If you want knock down from a handgun I would suggest a rocket propelled high explosive projectile.

GoOfY-FoOt · June 7, 2011, 09:13 PM

BOTTOM LINE

Any weapon used to thwart an attack, has to overcome one of two things.
Desire... or, Ability.

Someone MUST have an ongoing mental capacity to cause harm to another human being and they MUST have the physical ability to carry it out.

It does not matter what the statistics say, the odds are irrelevent. The only thing that will relate to any one given situation are the specific dynamics of that very situation.

Stop their desire to continue attacking you, OR, remove their physical ability.

mavracer · June 7, 2011, 09:17 PM

Quote:

It does not matter what the statistics say, the odds are irrelevent. The only thing that will relate to any one given situation are the dynamics of that very situation.

very true.

Quote:

Stop their desire to continue attacking you, OR, remove their physical ability.

Right and bottom line their desire is in their control and all service caliber hanguns suck at removing their physical ability.IMHO this data supports this.

BGutzman · June 8, 2011, 09:54 AM

Quote:

"To scare people, you should carry an automatic. But to kill them, use a revolver."

If that were true a lot of dead BG's would still be here today.. Of course it helps to know Patton was a huge fan of revolvers but lets not mention his preference so people think its unbiased....

peacefulgary · June 8, 2011, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Yes, that's why the energy dump theory just as much as the knock down theory is utter bull****, as I stated before.

I'm not so sure about that....

I once X-rayed a boxer in the morgue who died from several blows to the head.
The X-rays revealed no fractures....no broken neck, no broken skull, not even a broken facial bone or jaw or nose.
The coroner called it death by concusion to the brain.
There was no penetration and no wound channel, just energy transferred from one boxer's flying fist to another boxer's head.

9-ball · June 8, 2011, 01:14 PM

mrbro said it excellently.
I think no more points need to be added, but I'll just correct this one because it hurts my eyes:

Quote:

Except that it isn't because some of the kinetic energy is expended doing plastic deformation to soft tissue or crack propagation in bones, etc. It doesn't all become heat if it does permanent physical damage to body structures. Some of the bullet's energy does (mostly by way of fluid motion), but not all of it.

The deformation, unless increasing potential energy (which it doesn't in this case) will result in heat energy too. All the energy of the bullet will become heat if there is no spring or other device to capture it's energy.

For the ones who can't see my equations, right click on the picture and select "view in new tab" or "view in new window". Seems like a technical problem.

Bartholomew Roberts · June 8, 2011, 02:21 PM

Quote:

I'm not so sure about that....

I once X-rayed a boxer in the morgue who died from several blows to the head.
The X-rays revealed no fractures....no broken neck, no broken skull, not even a broken facial bone or jaw or nose.
The coroner called it death by concusion to the brain.
There was no penetration and no wound channel, just energy transferred from one boxer's flying fist to another boxer's head.

You know what a concussion is right? I don't see how that story supports the theory of "energy dump" or "knockdown power."

What happened was the fist caused the boxer's skull to accelerate, along with the brain inside it. When the skull stopped moving, the brain smashed into it, causing damage to the soft tissue of the brain, and probably torn blood vessels, hermorrhaging, etc., which ultimately killed the boxer.

X-rays are nifty; but there is a lot of internal damage that can not be spotted by an x-ray.

mrbro · June 8, 2011, 03:34 PM

Quote:

There was no penetration and no wound channel, just energy transferred from one boxer's flying fist to another boxer's head.

That's momentum again, The skull starts to move before the soft brain tissue and comes to a rapid stop while the soft tissue is still in motion. Not trying to be cute, but its like scrambling an egg in the shell. This same effect has killed some very famous race car drivers.

Correction: Come to think of it, I may be mistaken on the COD of the racers

capflyboy05 · June 8, 2011, 04:30 PM

I appreciate what this gentleman tried to do.
But as it has been said many, many, MANY, times already...
Shootings and the environment are never consistent.
In order to develop proper data, there needs to be a "controlled factor."
Without that controlled factor.
There is no way to text the variables against it.
Just my two cents.

mavracer · June 8, 2011, 07:20 PM

Quote:

All the energy of the bullet will become heat if there is no spring or other device to capture it's energy.

Maybe if humans were made of clay. Most human tissue is very elastic which is why the wound closes up. Very little of the energy is turned into heat.

THplanes · June 9, 2011, 03:48 AM

9-ball
"The deformation, unless increasing potential energy (which it doesn't in this case) will result in heat energy too. All the energy of the bullet will become heat if there is no spring or other device to capture it's energy."

This is nonsense, most of the bullets KE is used to form the temporary stretch cavity. The size of the TSC for typical service caliber handguns does not exceed the elastic limit of the tissue, it simply rebounds to the original size. Some of the KE will be transformed into heat. Some of the KE will be used to deform the bullet. The KE used to deform the bullet is gone, it's not available to produce heat. There will be some heat as by product of the mechanical deformation.

You also have KE and momentum back-wards in regard to penetration. Momentum and diameter are the primary characteristics that mediate penetration. KE is related to TSC size. Here is the link to the best book on the subject.

http://pw2.netcom.com/~dmacp/index.html

As an example, look at the Federal HST line. For the same caliber the heavier bullets expand to a larger diameter and penetrate deeper. Despite the fact that they have the lowest energy. The lighter bullets at a higher KE do a better job exploding water jugs and water melons.

9-ball · June 9, 2011, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Maybe if humans were made of clay. Most human tissue is very elastic which is why the wound closes up. Very little of the energy is turned into heat.

Quote:

Some of the KE will be transformed into heat. Some of the KE will be used to deform the bullet. The KE used to deform the bullet is gone, it's not available to produce heat. There will be some heat as by product of the mechanical deformation.

Law of conservation of energy, anyone? Deformation will cause friction in the internal structure of the matter causing, again heat. The human tissue will have a temporary cavity, which will take some elastic energy at first, but after the cavity collapses it will again be turned into heat. All energy will be turned into heat.

hardworker · June 9, 2011, 05:36 AM

It makes this early thursday morning a little more entertaining to watch people with no training in medicine or physics debate gunshot wounds and what makes one better than the other

THplanes · June 9, 2011, 06:12 AM

9-ball
"Law of conservation of energy, anyone? Deformation will cause friction in the internal structure of the matter causing, again heat. The human tissue will have a temporary cavity, which will take some elastic energy at first, but after the cavity collapses it will again be turned into heat. All energy will be turned into heat."

You need to get past the simplified world of freshman physics. If all the energy is turned into heat, where does the energy that deforms the bullet come from. Yes, heat is a side product this. If all the energy is turned into heat, there is no energy to deform the bullet. Energy is also used to crush/cut the tissue.

All the bullets KE is not transformed into heat. Shoot a watermelon and observe the explosion. If all KE is transformed into heat, where does the energy blasting watermelon bits all over come from.

The KE used to deform the bullet is gone

You seem to have trouble with this concept. Mechanical work, the deformation of the bullet, is being done. Work requires energy.
Mehanical work, the crushing of tissue, is being done. Again this requires energy. Some of the KE is transformed into mechanical work. Some is transformed into heat. There is no violation of conservation of energy.

9-ball · June 9, 2011, 08:20 AM

Quote:

All the bullets KE is not transformed into heat. Shoot a watermelon and observe the explosion. If all KE is transformed into heat, where does the energy blasting watermelon bits all over come from.

We were talking about a bullet remaining in the body. Contrary to watermelons, human bodies do not splatter if the bullet doesn't exit. However, the pieces of watermelon will first gain kinetic energy and potential gravitational energy, but will then hit the ground and transform all that into thermal energy.

Quote:

You seem to have trouble with this concept. Mechanical work, the deformation of the bullet, is being done. Work requires energy.
Mehanical work, the crushing of tissue, is being done. Again this requires energy. Some of the KE is transformed into mechanical work.

Work is the process of changing the energy, you can not turn energy into mechanical work. Mechanical work is a mean of transportation for the energy. The tissue will crush and produce heat in the process.

You seem to have a lot of problem with the basis of physics.

Quote:

It makes this early thursday morning a little more entertaining to watch people with no training in medicine or physics

I have no training in medicine but I do in physics.

THplanes · June 9, 2011, 09:01 AM

You are simply clueless. Take your ideas to a physics proff and see what he/she says. Especially this nonsense about all energy being converted into heat. Take an exact copy of post 115 to him to evaluate.

You started out claiming KE was responsible for penetration and that momentum had little roll to play. Since then you have stopped spouting that erroneous BS.

By the way, I have 3 years of physics. It was 30 years ago, so I am a bit rusty.

SwampYankee · June 9, 2011, 09:05 AM

So I looked at the data presented. It is interesting. But even if you choose to draw any conclusions, you really don't have the basis to do so.

When we analyze data (he says as he puts on his scientist hat) we do what is called hypothesis testing. You start out with a hypothesis, usually the null hypothesis. In this case, the hypothesis would be to pick one factor- say percentage of fatal shootings, for sake of argument- and we assume there is no difference between caliber. So the null hypothesis would be that each caliber is equally effective. Then we run a bunch of statistical tests and do mean separation and try to prove there is no difference.

None of this was done. And as has been mentioned previously, there are so many potential factors that can contribute error to the data set that you'll probably never get statistical significance and if you do, you can't be sure if it is an artifact or not.

As a data set, it is interesting. As a means for drawing conclusions, it is pretty useless. Maybe you could grasp at some general trends but even that would be a stretch.

mavracer · June 9, 2011, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Work is the process of changing the energy, you can not turn energy into mechanical work. Mechanical work is a mean of transportation for the energy. The tissue will crush and produce heat in the process.

You seem to have a lot of problem with the basis of physics.

you seem to have a problem with the practical applications of physics.
let's talk about what I'm gonna call Mavracer's theory of relevance. that in order for something to enter a discussion it needs to be a relevant factor.
therefore since heat energy has nothing to do with the wound effectiveness of bullets it really has no place in the discussion.
bullets wound by the disruption of tissue the fact that the tissue is heated up a degree or so is totally irrelevant.

oldgranpa · June 9, 2011, 11:13 AM

Great caliber war thread! What conclusions were reached?? None!!

mrbro · June 9, 2011, 11:28 AM

ROFLMAO

Quote:

Great caliber war thread! What conclusions were reached?? None!!

I wanna be an Oldgranpa when I grow up!

9-ball · June 9, 2011, 11:32 AM

Quote:

therefore since heat energy has nothing to do with the wound effectiveness of bullets it really has no place in the discussion.

This is getting really pointless, I provide my data and get a whole bunch of non-relevant nonsense spouted, which I debunk for the sake of physics and then I get accused of dragging irrelevant things to the discussion? Look back at who dragged the cup of coffee and heat argument in this discussion.

I'm stopping with this argument, just take the calibre you're good with.

mavracer · June 9, 2011, 12:30 PM

Quote:

I provide my data and get a whole bunch of non-relevant nonsense spouted, which I debunk for the sake of physics.

it's not your data it's your hypothisis.

Quote:

So let's say we get a certain amount of momentum to our disposal which we can part between mass and velocity just as we like, then a slight increase in velocity wouldn't cause to much fuzz with the momentum, but would greatly increase energy and thus, penetration.

This is wrong. yes increasing velocity will increase penatration but atributing it to energy alone just because velocity affects energy exponentionaly.
you would need to prove that penatration is increases exponentionally when velocity increases. Which it doesn't, penatration is affected liner by momentum. which is proven by the fact that when velocity is increased and mass is decreased you can make energy go up and momentum go down and lose penatration. it's very evident compairing ball or FMJ ammo of different weights in the same caliber IE 115gr 9mm fmj averages about 1250fps for 389 ft/lb of energy and 147gr 9mm fmj goes 1000 on average for only 326 ft/lb the fact that 147gr 9mm ball will outpenatrate 115gr ball all day every day is because of it's greater momentum.

Daryl · June 9, 2011, 04:54 PM

First, I've not read this entire thread; nor am I going to.

2nd, I do not doubt the truthfullness of the data. If it's untrue, then shame on the person who made it up.

But...

What I see in looking over the data is simply proof that looking at data isn't a good way to choose a cartridge.

Why?

Go back and look at the data for the .22 rimfire. If we went only off of this data provided, I'd choose a pistol chambered in .22 LR as the best defensive handgun I can get, and that's simply not true.

I see no reason to collect data for this purpose. I don't collect data of this sort. I do, however, shoot a fair amount, and I've killed a fair number of animals with various cartridges. Enough so that I'm comfortable choosing what I believe will work best for me.

However, I also don't write books, and I don't make my living selling nonsense to the public.

When I chose my carry gun(s), I couldn't have cared less how the cartridge compared to the 9mm. I couldn't care less how it compared to a .357 Sig, or to any other cartridge. That is a non-issue to me.

Buy what works for you, and learn to shoot it well. What your buddies think of your choice, or how it compares to their choice is irrelevant.

Daryl

JohnO · June 9, 2011, 08:51 PM

Hey Oldgrandpa, You want to know what conclusion was reached. The same as always when you have this many opinions on such a topic. It's always inconclusive!

BGutzman · June 9, 2011, 09:15 PM

If the bullet cross sectional density is equal to double the square of a right angle while the moon is in 1st phase and gravity is at a 1.6 mega photons then the target will be...

The only physics that matter the heavier and faster with a reasonable width are better than anything else so long as you can handle it and its not over penetrating...

June 7, 2011, 09:05 PM	#101
Nanuk Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2005 Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam. Posts: 3,082	If you want knock down from a handgun I would suggest a rocket propelled high explosive projectile. __________________ Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

June 9, 2011, 03:48 AM	#111
THplanes Member Join Date: March 22, 2010 Posts: 58	9-ball "The deformation, unless increasing potential energy (which it doesn't in this case) will result in heat energy too. All the energy of the bullet will become heat if there is no spring or other device to capture it's energy." This is nonsense, most of the bullets KE is used to form the temporary stretch cavity. The size of the TSC for typical service caliber handguns does not exceed the elastic limit of the tissue, it simply rebounds to the original size. Some of the KE will be transformed into heat. Some of the KE will be used to deform the bullet. The KE used to deform the bullet is gone, it's not available to produce heat. There will be some heat as by product of the mechanical deformation. You also have KE and momentum back-wards in regard to penetration. Momentum and diameter are the primary characteristics that mediate penetration. KE is related to TSC size. Here is the link to the best book on the subject. http://pw2.netcom.com/~dmacp/index.html As an example, look at the Federal HST line. For the same caliber the heavier bullets expand to a larger diameter and penetrate deeper. Despite the fact that they have the lowest energy. The lighter bullets at a higher KE do a better job exploding water jugs and water melons. Last edited by THplanes; June 9, 2011 at 04:07 AM.

June 9, 2011, 06:12 AM	#114
THplanes Member Join Date: March 22, 2010 Posts: 58	9-ball "Law of conservation of energy, anyone? Deformation will cause friction in the internal structure of the matter causing, again heat. The human tissue will have a temporary cavity, which will take some elastic energy at first, but after the cavity collapses it will again be turned into heat. All energy will be turned into heat." You need to get past the simplified world of freshman physics. If all the energy is turned into heat, where does the energy that deforms the bullet come from. Yes, heat is a side product this. If all the energy is turned into heat, there is no energy to deform the bullet. Energy is also used to crush/cut the tissue. All the bullets KE is not transformed into heat. Shoot a watermelon and observe the explosion. If all KE is transformed into heat, where does the energy blasting watermelon bits all over come from. The KE used to deform the bullet is gone You seem to have trouble with this concept. Mechanical work, the deformation of the bullet, is being done. Work requires energy. Mehanical work, the crushing of tissue, is being done. Again this requires energy. Some of the KE is transformed into mechanical work. Some is transformed into heat. There is no violation of conservation of energy. Last edited by THplanes; June 9, 2011 at 06:37 AM.

June 7, 2011, 09:13 PM	#102
GoOfY-FoOt Senior Member Join Date: January 1, 2011 Location: West Central Florida Posts: 463	BOTTOM LINE Any weapon used to thwart an attack, has to overcome one of two things. Desire... or, Ability. Someone MUST have an ongoing mental capacity to cause harm to another human being and they MUST have the physical ability to carry it out. It does not matter what the statistics say, the odds are irrelevent. The only thing that will relate to any one given situation are the specific dynamics of that very situation. Stop their desire to continue attacking you, OR, remove their physical ability.

June 8, 2011, 04:30 PM	#109
capflyboy05 Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 114	I appreciate what this gentleman tried to do. But as it has been said many, many, MANY, times already... Shootings and the environment are never consistent. In order to develop proper data, there needs to be a "controlled factor." Without that controlled factor. There is no way to text the variables against it. Just my two cents.

June 9, 2011, 05:36 AM	#113
hardworker Senior Member Join Date: August 4, 2010 Posts: 820	It makes this early thursday morning a little more entertaining to watch people with no training in medicine or physics debate gunshot wounds and what makes one better than the other

June 9, 2011, 09:01 AM	#116
THplanes Member Join Date: March 22, 2010 Posts: 58	You are simply clueless. Take your ideas to a physics proff and see what he/she says. Especially this nonsense about all energy being converted into heat. Take an exact copy of post 115 to him to evaluate. You started out claiming KE was responsible for penetration and that momentum had little roll to play. Since then you have stopped spouting that erroneous BS. By the way, I have 3 years of physics. It was 30 years ago, so I am a bit rusty.

June 9, 2011, 09:05 AM	#117
SwampYankee Registration in progress Join Date: November 1, 2008 Location: I can be found on a number of other forums. Posts: 1,332	So I looked at the data presented. It is interesting. But even if you choose to draw any conclusions, you really don't have the basis to do so. When we analyze data (he says as he puts on his scientist hat) we do what is called hypothesis testing. You start out with a hypothesis, usually the null hypothesis. In this case, the hypothesis would be to pick one factor- say percentage of fatal shootings, for sake of argument- and we assume there is no difference between caliber. So the null hypothesis would be that each caliber is equally effective. Then we run a bunch of statistical tests and do mean separation and try to prove there is no difference. None of this was done. And as has been mentioned previously, there are so many potential factors that can contribute error to the data set that you'll probably never get statistical significance and if you do, you can't be sure if it is an artifact or not. As a data set, it is interesting. As a means for drawing conclusions, it is pretty useless. Maybe you could grasp at some general trends but even that would be a stretch.

June 9, 2011, 11:13 AM	#119
oldgranpa Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 209	Great caliber war thread! What conclusions were reached?? None!!

June 9, 2011, 04:54 PM	#123
Daryl Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2008 Posts: 2,350	First, I've not read this entire thread; nor am I going to. 2nd, I do not doubt the truthfullness of the data. If it's untrue, then shame on the person who made it up. But... What I see in looking over the data is simply proof that looking at data isn't a good way to choose a cartridge. Why? Go back and look at the data for the .22 rimfire. If we went only off of this data provided, I'd choose a pistol chambered in .22 LR as the best defensive handgun I can get, and that's simply not true. I see no reason to collect data for this purpose. I don't collect data of this sort. I do, however, shoot a fair amount, and I've killed a fair number of animals with various cartridges. Enough so that I'm comfortable choosing what I believe will work best for me. However, I also don't write books, and I don't make my living selling nonsense to the public. When I chose my carry gun(s), I couldn't have cared less how the cartridge compared to the 9mm. I couldn't care less how it compared to a .357 Sig, or to any other cartridge. That is a non-issue to me. Buy what works for you, and learn to shoot it well. What your buddies think of your choice, or how it compares to their choice is irrelevant. Daryl

June 9, 2011, 08:51 PM	#124
JohnO Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 2000 Posts: 502	Hey Oldgrandpa, You want to know what conclusion was reached. The same as always when you have this many opinions on such a topic. It's always inconclusive!

June 9, 2011, 09:15 PM	#125
BGutzman Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2009 Location: Frozen Tundra Posts: 2,414	If the bullet cross sectional density is equal to double the square of a right angle while the moon is in 1st phase and gravity is at a 1.6 mega photons then the target will be... The only physics that matter the heavier and faster with a reasonable width are better than anything else so long as you can handle it and its not over penetrating...