Firearm Stopping Power…a different perspective.

[MLeake]

Vito,

WWII Germany used several .32 caliber autos as sidearms, including the Mauser HSc, Walther PPK, and Walther PP. They also used 9mm pistols such as the Luger P08 and Walther P38.

WWII Japan used the 8mm Nambu.

WWII Italy even used .25 Berettas.

WWII USA issued .32 or .380 pistols to General officers.

WWII UK issued .38S&W revolvers to many of their troops (converted S&W M&P revolvers), although they also issued the HiPower 9mm.

Up until relatively recently, the US issued various .38 revolvers, not only the 1911 and M9. (I qualified on the S&W Model 15 .38 in the Navy in 1990; USAF security units were still using that revolver, too.)

Former USSR issued variants of the Makarov, in 9x18mm, which is an intermediate step between .380 and 9mm (.380 is 9x17mm, "9mm" is 9x19mm).

What militaries issue has more to do with bulk costs, ease of supply, and availability.

[WolfMacabre]

I don't think I can agree with that study too much, there are way too many variables. I think for me I'm going to stick with carrying the largest caliber gun that I can shoot accurately as well as quickly. I agree with a lot of people on here though that location is what's important.

[KyJim]

Simplified, ammo and caliber choice comes down to:

1. a gun/caliber I can and will carry
2. a gun/caliber that I can shoot (shot placement)
3. ammo that is reliable in my gun
4. ammo that penetrates adequately
5. bigger holes are better holes (covers both larger caliber and expanding bullets)

Then, hope and pray for luck.

[Double Naught Spy]

Sort of reminds me of a study proclaiming which brand of gasoline gave the best mileage out of several brands without stating anything about the cars being driven, topography, type of driving, to of driver, or season.

The results just weren't that meaningful and certainly not insightful enough to help with any sort of actual decision making about them.

[Mello2u]

After re-reading the "study", I am wondering what Greg Ellifritz means when he calculates one shot stop percentage. How can a one shot stop be something calculated using number of incapacitations divided by the number of hits the person took?

• One shot stop percentage- number of incapacitations divided by the number of hits the person took. Like Marshall’s number, I only included hits to the torso or head in this number.

[SRH78]

As flawed as it is, there are a few things that make sense here. The 9mm, according to this study, is the least accurate with the exception of the 25. I don't believe this is a knock on the cartridge but rather a result of many people who buy a gun for home defense and stick it in a drawer. This would also explain the relative inaccuracy of the 38. Many of these people buy a "budget" 9mm or 38. The 45 and 44, according to this study, are more accurate. That makes sense since these are not typically beginer guns, especially the 44. Another thing to point out is the average number of shots till incapacitation is lower with the revolvers. I believe this has more to do with mentality than anything else. Whether it is the "spray and pray" mentality or practicing double taps or "empty the magazine". Again, this isn't a knock on the gun or, imo, the effectiveness of the cartridge but the mentality of the shooter. As for the rest of it, ammo type and especially shot placement are huge variables. There is a lot of area on the torso and even the head that isn't vital. Not vital enough to put someone down quickly anyways. There is also a lot of variables to the individual being shot.

[mavracer]

As flawed as it is, there are a few things that make sense here.

Very true. It shows me that about 50% of BGs are gonna stop no matter what pistol round you shoot them with and 10-15% are not going to stop no matter what handgun you shoot them with as long as their CNS is functioning.
Of course I knew that already. Another thing that stands out aall handguns suck compaired to longguns. Of course that I knew too.
And after 30+ years I have come to the conclusion that while a more powerful handgun round does give you a better chance of stopping the BG it is a very small % of the overall factors.

[wildangel1955]

I was very disappointed that your link to the "best" 1911 article does not work.

[Steel Talon]

Research fails, needs .41 magnum data.. The true magical caliber

[Double Naught Spy]

Again, this isn't a knock on the gun or, imo, the effectiveness of the cartridge but the mentality of the shooter.

But this is contrary to the article that does not account for the shooter, only the caliber.

[Spats McGee]

Originally Posted by wildangel1955

I was very disappointed that your link to the "best" 1911 article does not work.

Welcome to The Firing Line, wildangel1955!

I've looked at that link before, and even looked at it just a couple of days ago. It was working then, and I suspect that it will be back up before long.

[C0untZer0]

After re-reading the "study", I am wondering what Greg Ellifritz means when he calculates one shot stop percentage. How can a one shot stop be something calculated using number of incapacitations divided by the number of hits the person took?

Quote:
• One shot stop percentage- number of incapacitations divided by the number of hits the person took. Like Marshall’s number, I only included hits to the torso or head in this number. - Mello2u

__________________


Exactly... I read that and said "wha?

It's not the only place where his verbiage and/or terminology is confusing.

[Nanuk]

Arg, where to begin. Putting the 357 mag and 357 sig in the same group would, on the surface say that he is cherry picking which results to include.

I carried a 357 back when most cops carried 38's and lead RN and LSWC was the most common bullet. I was a big city cop during the 80's ( Fort Worth, Texas), and have been with the US BP for over 20 years. I have seen a lot of shootings from everything you can imagine.

I have read everything I could find during the last 30 years on stopping power, terminal effectiveness etc because I wanted to be the best prepared I could be.

If I were to analyze this information into useful intelligence it comes down to this:

I carry the biggest, most powerful weapon I can conceal and get consistent hits with. For me that falls includes, 1911 45, S&W K frame 357 snubby, Glock 40. That being said I never bowed to the alter of the 125 357 as a death ray. It was really a johnny come lately to the 357 magnum scene. I like heavy for caliber bullets, especially for the 357, 41 and 44 magnums, I like big and fast.

There is so much information and so many variables. If it comes to it I wanna use the biggest hammer I can reliably hit with until the threat is no longer a threat,while being able to engage multiple threats.

In everything there is a compromise. Any service cartridge with any good HP will work about as well as any other. I do believe that magnum revolvers are better stoppers, they just take more dedication to become proficient.

[secret_agent_man]

Nanuk,

Over all those years and shootings, did the hollow points always expand, or were there problems? And have some of the newer designs cured those problems in your estimation?

Thanks in advance.

[Daugherty16]

Some of the selective data, and certainly the methodology and some of the calculated figures are suspect. However, the one most important premise is, as always, you have to hit the target or it doesn't matter what you're shooting. (Well, except for the BG who might run away rather than return fire and doesn't know you can't hit the broadside of a barn).

I'd add a note on bullet size - i prefer bigger bullets, both for the larger holes they make and the additional momentum (not energy) they carry. A standard 45ACP +P has about 25% less energy than a .357 mag, but generates about 14% more momentum (ie., an object in motion...). Meaning it is more likely to knock you down.

A 16lb bowling ball rolling 20mph has the same energy of a ping pong ball going 260 mph, but it has 15 times the momentum. Which one would feel better slamming into your chest? Likewise, a baseball going 90 mph carries the same energy as a ping pong ball going 675 mph, but has 7 times the momentum. Not sure what 675 mph ping pong ball impact would feel like, but i know what a 90 mph fastball feels like. I'd take the ping pong ball. Especially if a sensitive area were involved.

Just my opinion.

[Nanuk]

"Over all those years and shootings, did the hollow points always expand, or were there problems? And have some of the newer designs cured those problems in your estimation?

Thanks in advance. "

No they did not. I believe newer designs are better, but no handgun is 100%. A handgun is a last ditch defensive weapon. I have seen people hit with cars run off. I think hunting gives us a good perspective, not every animal (deer for example) reacts the same way from the same wound. Sure a 22lr will kill a whitetail deer stone cold dead, but is that what most people use?

[secret_agent_man]

a ping pong ball going 675 mph

Make no mistake about it. A ping pong ball hits you going 675 MPH, you are going down. Legally know as momentum estoppel.

[HotShot.444]

Very little correct conclusion comes from popular consensus. As they have said, "Show us YOUR data." L1S1

[603Country]

There is calculated information that can show (indicate) which cartridges are most effective. I know that some, and perhaps many, of you have heard of the Hatcher Formula. It was worked up by Julian Hatcher in 1927 and modified in 1934. His formula takes into consideration bullet mass, velocity, cross-sectional area (frontal surface) and bullet shape. The formula then calculates Relative Stopping Power. Tops on the list, which doesn't reflect some of the monster pistol rounds of today, are: 44 Mag, 41 Mag, 45 Colt, 45 ACP, and then the 44-40. Note that all of them are large caliber bullets, and all shoot heavy bullets in the 210 to 255 grain range. The calculation makes sense to me (my Engineering mind), and I'm a believer. If you have to shoot somebody, do it with a 44 or 45 caliber bullet moving at 1000 fps. That'll do it for ya. And I should mention that the RSP of the 9 mm Luger cartridge is approximately 20% of the RSP of the 44 Mag.

And read up on the Thompson-La Garde study that gave us the 45 ACP.

[9-ball]

Daugherty16,

Momentum merely states the amount of movement an object carries. It dictates how much speed it can pass on trough other objects. It also implies what the recoil is of your gun. Now I'm gonna say it, knowing lots of people have said it before me:

BULLET MOMENTUM DOES NOT MATTER ON A HUMAN

why? Do the math with me:
Let's take a 13 grams 44 magnum bullet travelling at 495 m/s, the momentum would be:

p = m*v = 6.435 Kg*m/s

The moment it hits a 75 kg man, we assume it expands and sticks with the body.

p_bullet = p_man
so
v_man = 0.0858 m/s ( 0.1919 miles per hour for the old fashioned )

This is totally neglectable. Energy however does matter, and not in the energy-dump theory kind of way, which is utter bull****, but when a bullet enters a body, the flesh will react with a force F_resistance in relation to the bullets velocity. We have:

F_resistance * x_penetration = Energy

The smaller and more streamlined the bullet, the smaller F_resistance will be, giving the most penetration. As energy is

E = m*v²/2

this equation favours velocity much more then momentum.

So let's say we get a certain amount of momentum to our disposal which we can part between mass and velocity just as we like, then a slight increase in velocity wouldn't cause to much fuzz with the momentum, but would greatly increase energy and thus, penetration.

To sum all this up: given that a certain round doesn't suffer from shortcoming or excessive penetration, the round with the smallest momentum has an edge by having less recoil.

[Double Naught Spy]

Make no mistake about it. A ping pong ball hits you going 675 MPH, you are going down.

A ping pong ball weights 2.7 grams which is about 42 grains, or about that of a .22 lr bullet. 675 mph is 990 fps.

A ping pong ball at 675 would sting a lot. It would not knock you down.

[JimPage]

Not to rain on anyone's theory or his favorite caliber, the most important thing is to hit the right spot. Shot placement!!!!!!

[mavracer]

So let's say we get a certain amount of momentum to our disposal which we can part between mass and velocity just as we like, then a slight increase in velocity wouldn't cause to much fuzz with the momentum, but would greatly increase energy and thus, penetration.

9 ball you seem to have a good grasp on the calculations but are failing with the practical application.
penatration is a factor of stopping the foward momentum of the projectile.
A bullet with higher momentum will almost always out penatrate a bullet with less momentum even when it has less energy when other factors ie diameter and expansion remain similar.
158gr 357s will out penatrate 125gr, 147gr 9mm will out penatrate 115gr and 230 gr 45 acp will out penatrate 185gr even though the lighter bullets have more energy.

[secret_agent_man]

the most important thing is to hit the right spot.

Well if you hit Anthony Wiener there with a ping pong ball going 675 MPH, it might be a game changer even if it wouldn't knock him down.

[plumbernater]

considering the age of the world and how long guns have been around, sharp sticks and blades have killed more people than guns no matter what caliber.