defense gun on a budget - Page 3

Dr.Rob · October 15, 2002, 08:13 PM

Just for the recordI shoot IDPA with an FEG Hi-Power clone. They are getting harder to find at the $200 mark, and depending on your locale, you MIGHT (ie CA) be able to get one anyway.

I also have a PA-63 in .380. I would NOT remmomend this gun to a beginner. While mine has never jammed, it really has a gritty heavvy DA pull, and for its size you can get a much more powerful weapon.

The MAK has advantages: all steel, reliable feeding etc, but not ALL maks are made equally well. I'd recommend the used 357 DA revolver for versatility and ease of use.

SLIM410 · October 16, 2002, 08:32 AM

You can obtain any of the Hi-Point line of semi-auto's for less than $200 including the 9mm Carbine rifle.

http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com

Howto7 · October 16, 2002, 11:27 AM

MINOR power factor, for IPSC OR IDPA, so of course they can't compete. The DA trigger and small size would mean that they'd do poorly, in any case. The Russians could always carry an AK if they expected trouble. The Mak was just for shooting prisoners in the base of the skull. The .22 will kill, too, ya know, at a cost of 1/5th the cost of the 9mm Mak rd. Dont kid yourself that the Mak's 200 lousy ft lbs amounts to more than a fair bluff. The .22 is a pretty good bluff, too. It's also more likely to be practiced with a lot, and thus, better able to pull the face shots necessary to stop an attack. The Mak will likely need those same face shots. If you don't believe this, shoot a few cottontails with one sometime. The effect will be little or no different than what you get when you shoot them with a Stinger HP, in a rifle.

While Star has closed their doors, SOG is selling the 7" 30 oz, steel framed 9mm BM for $180 dealer cost, to include one spare mag. The Star BK is the same gun, 5 ozs lighter, with an alloy frame, not quite as durable, but low budget owners are most unlikely to shoot it enough to know the difference. The more recent steel frame, single stack, 6.5", 30 oz Firestar 9mm is also a good buy, and the 6.5", double stack, alloy frame, 25 oz Firestar plus, 9mm is also a great buy. All of these Stars can be found for under $250, if you look around.

Frankly, I seriously doubt that a new shooter is hitting clay pigeons at 25 yds "as fast as he can pull the trigger". He might be doing so SA, taking his time, but not DA, at the rate of 3 shots per second, which is as fast as most people can cycle a DA revolver.

2kiddad · October 16, 2002, 04:55 PM

Quote:

by 9x45...
Maks, Bersas, FEG's..... What, they can shoot over 100 rounds with only 16 malfunctions. And all the supportors have shot at least 50 rounds.

I see so many Maks NOT!!! in USPSA and IDPA, I think I'll give up my Glocks......What the heck is a Bersa anyway? And I know what a Browning HP is , but whats a FEG?

Upon deciphering this gibberish, I've come to the conclusion you don't like Makarov's, FEG's and Bersa's. You obviously wouldn't know a great deal in pistols if it fell out of the sky and hit you in the head! By your reasoning, CZ's are just commie pieces of junk, right?

The Makarov is one of the most robust, simple and reliable pistols ever made like virtually every firearm to originate from behind the Iron Curtain. If produced in the west, the Makarov would cost at least twice or more than what they've been selling for. Virtually the entire pistol is forged steel!!! Hardly a "cheap" pistol

I've fired several thousand rounds through my Bulgarian. Everything from LVE Green Box to Hornaday. Even the evil, infamous Silver Bear ammo. Surprise! No jams, FTF's, FTE's or misfires! Ever! I'd be willing to guess my experience is typical of most all Makarov owners. Their politics and economic systems sucked, but the commies sure built fine guns!

Can't comment on FEG's. Almost bought one one upon a time. A beautifully polished, blued, BHP clone. If I only had $200-$300 to spend on a defensive pistol, I'd consider a FEG BHP clone anytime.

I do own a Bersa pistol. Another gem in the rough. The Thunder Nine I own, has, what is argueably, one of the finest DA triggers of any pistol I own. It rivals my Sig P220 and is better than the Walther P88 I just sold to a member here on TFL!

Get your head out of the sand and quit judging pistols by whether they're shot in competition, how much they cost or what country they come from. Price has absolutely nothing to do with accuracy in many cases. I've seen great shooters firing CZ's, Makarov's and other "cheap" pistols absolutely embarrass gun snobs with their high priced hardware. Makes me laugh every time!

wun_8_seven · October 16, 2002, 09:10 PM

HOWTO7, i never said he was a new shooter, isaid he never owned his own handgun before. and if you don't believe me thats fine,but you might want to watch who you call a liar. cause somebody might whip your rude @$$. 187

Bob G. · October 17, 2002, 01:23 AM

Congratulations! You found a great gun! I have a Police Service Six snubby and it shoots great. I noticed someone posting 357 snubs as uncontrollable. That's pure bull pucky. I regularly practice with my SP-101 and the above mentioned revolver from up close and personal all the way out to fifty yards. I have no problems doing so and regularly rely on those firearms for my personal protection. I have absolute confidence in the weapons and in my skill with them.
Now you'll have to find anyother for yourself.
Bob

Eric Larsen · October 17, 2002, 07:55 AM

The Competition point isnt an issue in this thread IMO.

The same person who initiated this point also brought up a basic lack of understanding of certain Makers of guns...not really calibers.

IDPA power factors are great stats but in this discussion its also a non issue...the person who started the thread or the person he's referring to got a 357 mag. As far as power factors go and shootability..they are as good as anything.
Very few people can shoot 3 shots per second with a s/a 1911 and hit clay pigeons as 25 yds, let alone one with a d/a revolver.

I can hit them everytime with my SP101 short tube at that distance .....not a chance in hell at 3 shot per second. Ill go practice......
Shoot well

H&K compact · October 17, 2002, 11:25 AM

I have seen that Bersa makes several semi auto .380s for under $300 at my local firearm dealer. May be worth looking into.

CZ Gunner · October 17, 2002, 11:30 AM

If it's purely for home defense, I'd say get a good Mossy 12-gauge pump.

If he wants one he can wield while in the car, I'd go with a CZ of some sort. Either a 75/85 variant (in 9mm for high cap) or a CZ 40 (.40 S&W / 10 rounds).

All can be had in your price range (12-Gauge = NIB, CZ's used).

Gunner

Tropical Z · October 17, 2002, 12:07 PM

Reliability + Best warranty in the business =Hi-Point!

eyeballz · October 17, 2002, 02:27 PM

Makarov in 380acp, used revolver 38spl or 357mag. Taurus and Rossi are great handgun. also used S&Ws are running at a good price also.

Freightman · October 17, 2002, 02:54 PM

HiPoint will stand behind their product for sure no questions ask. Not a pretty gun but will get the job done.
Price is good on the 9MM and the 45 $110 on the 9 and $140 on the 45.

fignozzle · October 17, 2002, 03:21 PM

Now back up the truck just a minute, Czgunner...

Where ya gonna get a FUNCTIONAL CZ75 or 85 for under 2 bills???

I wish I lived where all these deals take place. It just does NOT happen in East TN. Try under FOUR hundred...maybe...once or twice a year!

...or do I just NOT get it?

Cee-Zed · October 17, 2002, 04:04 PM

187 made it clear that we were talking two bills, but the responses have crept up into the three bills range!

187, this raises an important point. There are a lot of darn good handguns out there for under $200. $300 cash CAN put you in a position to buy virtually anything within reason. In my experience $300 cash can buy a used gun worth up to $600 or more when NIB. (To paraphrase Dashiel Hammet, we are talking about genuine coin of the realm, not talk.)

Not trying to be a smarty. Sometimes people want to do a private sale, etc.

CZ Gunner · October 17, 2002, 04:20 PM

Fig ..

Bought one of my CZ-75B's NIB less than a year ago for $279 ... they had used one for $195 that looked good (but only had 10-rounder) with it, no box or book or tools.

Have seen a couple in there since ... (Their shop's GunBroker seller name is: Donkey 21 ... you can do a search and see if they have any listed. I don't see any used ones up there now ... )

NIB CZ-40's can be had for $289 w/ two 10 round mags .. see:

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...p?Item=5778320

for one example.

They can be had .. you just have to look.

Gunner

wun_8_seven · October 17, 2002, 06:37 PM

i recently sold 3 cz's on this board. i offered my neighbor his choice for $300 and i'd let him pay it out. but although he liked shooting them with me, he felt understress he might have problems with the safety. so the ruger, it seems to be working out well for him so far. and i like it well enough that looking for one for myself. 187

fjrogers · October 19, 2002, 01:03 AM

I really like my Kel-tec P-11. I shoot it often and really like the way it shoots. I added a grip extension, trigger boot and slip on grip. It is a great carry gun, dependable and a great value for it’s cost. Good luck with your search. I have seen new P-11’s for $210 to $260. Good luck with your search.
Be Safe
Fjrogers

115grfmj · October 20, 2002, 10:17 AM

The value series guns are critically acclaimed. Just not fancy so they get no attention.
1) s&w 457 -.45acp 7 rounds trad. da Massad Ayoobs fav.
2) s&w 410-.40 cal 10round trad da
3)S&w 910-9mm 10rounds trad da
I personally own the 910 simply the most reliable hangun I have ever used bar none. have over 4k round through mine , believe me when I tell you the thing will feed empty cases. Accurate, I can manage 3inch groups offhand at 25yards. The 910 take 5906 preban mags, the 410 takes 4006 prebans (I think) do a search and see what other tfl'ers think about them. Your better off sticking with the big names like ruger ,smith, glock, and sig (yeah I know sigs are like a rolls trying to fit in your ford budget but you could find one used)

wun_8_seven · October 20, 2002, 12:08 PM

howto7 , as stated before he has the gun now. and since i'm retired an my dillon is crankin 4 - 5 hours a day he wont have any trouble coming up with practice ammo. 187

AZTOY · October 20, 2002, 12:44 PM

Quote:

You can obtain any of the Hi-Point line of semi-auto's for less than $200 including the 9mm Carbine rifle.

I would never get anything hi-point sells .I bought the 45 and it was the biggest peice of [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] . The 45 jamed all the time . Right now it"s in my safe broken.:barf:

Dr. C · September 26, 2004, 03:43 AM

Don't buy a Smith & Wesson model 457 handgun. It is a fine gun if you just want to make loud noises and not hit anything with it. It has to be the most inacurate gun I have ever fired.

Jim4003 · September 26, 2004, 01:39 PM

Go with a used S and W 357 as some others have suggested. Good solid guns and the 38 is an option for reduced recoil practice. Also there are numerous people out there who can work on the gun. Grips and accessories are plentiful also. With practice, as with most guns, proficiency comes with practice.

Dorrin 79 · September 26, 2004, 11:37 PM

My experiences with <$200 guns have included...

Bulgarian Makarov, $160 or so, including shipping and FFL. Utterly reliable, very accurate. Easy to conceal. Not-so-good sights, bad DA trigger (but good SA), marginal round. Nice blued finish, heavy for its size.

Star BM, $170 or so including shipping and FFL. Reliable and accurate, superb SA trigger. Bluing kind of spotty because it had been in some guardia civil officer's holster for 10 years. Good round, mags and parts hard to find. Sights mediocre. Very heavy for it's size, but thin.

Kel-Tec P-11 - picked this up for $200 at a gun show. Horrible DAO trigger, light and concealable with good round. Not too accurate (because of aforementioned trigger), mechanically reliable. Many people really like these, I sold it.

Bersa .380 Du-Tone - $150 from a friend's roommate. Go for $200 NIB locally. Reliable, accurate, concealable. Marginal round. Only new commercial gun in this price range I would consider.

Ruger Security Six, 4" Stainless .357 mag - $190 online auction, ended up costing me $225 with FFL and shipping. Most powerful of this list, accurate and good trigger. Probably best all-around bargain of the lot, although I'm not really into wheelguns. Not really CCW-able, if that is an issue.

Some people have suggested the Hi-Point. I have no personal experience with them, but given their reputation I would spend a little more and get one of the above listed.

October 15, 2002, 08:13 PM	#51
Dr.Rob Staff Alumnus Join Date: July 28, 1999 Location: Denver Posts: 2,454	Just for the recordI shoot IDPA with an FEG Hi-Power clone. They are getting harder to find at the $200 mark, and depending on your locale, you MIGHT (ie CA) be able to get one anyway. I also have a PA-63 in .380. I would NOT remmomend this gun to a beginner. While mine has never jammed, it really has a gritty heavvy DA pull, and for its size you can get a much more powerful weapon. The MAK has advantages: all steel, reliable feeding etc, but not ALL maks are made equally well. I'd recommend the used 357 DA revolver for versatility and ease of use. __________________ You broke into the wrong Rec Room!

October 16, 2002, 11:27 AM	#53
Howto7 Junior member Join Date: October 15, 2002 Posts: 13	The Mak and the 380 won't make the MINOR power factor, for IPSC OR IDPA, so of course they can't compete. The DA trigger and small size would mean that they'd do poorly, in any case. The Russians could always carry an AK if they expected trouble. The Mak was just for shooting prisoners in the base of the skull. The .22 will kill, too, ya know, at a cost of 1/5th the cost of the 9mm Mak rd. Dont kid yourself that the Mak's 200 lousy ft lbs amounts to more than a fair bluff. The .22 is a pretty good bluff, too. It's also more likely to be practiced with a lot, and thus, better able to pull the face shots necessary to stop an attack. The Mak will likely need those same face shots. If you don't believe this, shoot a few cottontails with one sometime. The effect will be little or no different than what you get when you shoot them with a Stinger HP, in a rifle. While Star has closed their doors, SOG is selling the 7" 30 oz, steel framed 9mm BM for $180 dealer cost, to include one spare mag. The Star BK is the same gun, 5 ozs lighter, with an alloy frame, not quite as durable, but low budget owners are most unlikely to shoot it enough to know the difference. The more recent steel frame, single stack, 6.5", 30 oz Firestar 9mm is also a good buy, and the 6.5", double stack, alloy frame, 25 oz Firestar plus, 9mm is also a great buy. All of these Stars can be found for under $250, if you look around. Frankly, I seriously doubt that a new shooter is hitting clay pigeons at 25 yds "as fast as he can pull the trigger". He might be doing so SA, taking his time, but not DA, at the rate of 3 shots per second, which is as fast as most people can cycle a DA revolver. Last edited by Howto7; October 16, 2002 at 11:53 AM.

October 17, 2002, 11:25 AM	#58
H&K compact Member Join Date: September 10, 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 25	budget gun I have seen that Bersa makes several semi auto .380s for under $300 at my local firearm dealer. May be worth looking into.

October 17, 2002, 11:30 AM	#59
CZ Gunner Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 799	If it's purely for home defense, I'd say get a good Mossy 12-gauge pump. If he wants one he can wield while in the car, I'd go with a CZ of some sort. Either a 75/85 variant (in 9mm for high cap) or a CZ 40 (.40 S&W / 10 rounds). All can be had in your price range (12-Gauge = NIB, CZ's used). Gunner Last edited by CZ Gunner; October 17, 2002 at 12:11 PM.

October 17, 2002, 03:21 PM	#63
fignozzle Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2002 Location: under the radar, near the Sunsphere Posts: 177	CZ75/85 used... under $200? :eek: Now back up the truck just a minute, Czgunner... Where ya gonna get a FUNCTIONAL CZ75 or 85 for under 2 bills??? I wish I lived where all these deals take place. It just does NOT happen in East TN. Try under FOUR hundred...maybe...once or twice a year! ...or do I just NOT get it?

October 16, 2002, 08:32 AM	#52
SLIM410 Member Join Date: October 16, 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 40	You can obtain any of the Hi-Point line of semi-auto's for less than $200 including the 9mm Carbine rifle. http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com

October 16, 2002, 09:10 PM	#55
wun_8_seven Senior Member Join Date: September 17, 2002 Posts: 195	HOWTO7, i never said he was a new shooter, isaid he never owned his own handgun before. and if you don't believe me thats fine,but you might want to watch who you call a liar. cause somebody might whip your rude @$$. 187

October 17, 2002, 01:23 AM	#56
Bob G. Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2002 Posts: 143	Congratulations! You found a great gun! I have a Police Service Six snubby and it shoots great. I noticed someone posting 357 snubs as uncontrollable. That's pure bull pucky. I regularly practice with my SP-101 and the above mentioned revolver from up close and personal all the way out to fifty yards. I have no problems doing so and regularly rely on those firearms for my personal protection. I have absolute confidence in the weapons and in my skill with them. Now you'll have to find anyother for yourself. Bob

October 17, 2002, 07:55 AM	#57
Eric Larsen Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2001 Location: Bountiful....Ut. Posts: 3,226	The Competition point isnt an issue in this thread IMO. The same person who initiated this point also brought up a basic lack of understanding of certain Makers of guns...not really calibers. IDPA power factors are great stats but in this discussion its also a non issue...the person who started the thread or the person he's referring to got a 357 mag. As far as power factors go and shootability..they are as good as anything. Very few people can shoot 3 shots per second with a s/a 1911 and hit clay pigeons as 25 yds, let alone one with a d/a revolver. I can hit them everytime with my SP101 short tube at that distance .....not a chance in hell at 3 shot per second. Ill go practice...... Shoot well

October 17, 2002, 12:07 PM	#60
Tropical Z Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2000 Location: Atlantis Posts: 1,683	Reliability + Best warranty in the business =Hi-Point!

October 17, 2002, 02:27 PM	#61
eyeballz Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2002 Posts: 320	Makarov in 380acp, used revolver 38spl or 357mag. Taurus and Rossi are great handgun. also used S&Ws are running at a good price also.

October 17, 2002, 02:54 PM	#62
Freightman Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2002 Location: NW Texas Posts: 168	HiPoint will stand behind their product for sure no questions ask. Not a pretty gun but will get the job done. Price is good on the 9MM and the 45 $110 on the 9 and $140 on the 45.

October 17, 2002, 04:04 PM	#64
Cee-Zed Junior member Join Date: March 2, 2002 Posts: 481	187 made it clear that we were talking two bills, but the responses have crept up into the three bills range! 187, this raises an important point. There are a lot of darn good handguns out there for under $200. $300 cash CAN put you in a position to buy virtually anything within reason. In my experience $300 cash can buy a used gun worth up to $600 or more when NIB. (To paraphrase Dashiel Hammet, we are talking about genuine coin of the realm, not talk.) Not trying to be a smarty. Sometimes people want to do a private sale, etc.

October 17, 2002, 04:20 PM	#65
CZ Gunner Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 799	Fig .. Bought one of my CZ-75B's NIB less than a year ago for $279 ... they had used one for $195 that looked good (but only had 10-rounder) with it, no box or book or tools. Have seen a couple in there since ... (Their shop's GunBroker seller name is: Donkey 21 ... you can do a search and see if they have any listed. I don't see any used ones up there now ... ) NIB CZ-40's can be had for $289 w/ two 10 round mags .. see: http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...p?Item=5778320 for one example. They can be had .. you just have to look. Gunner

October 17, 2002, 06:37 PM	#66
wun_8_seven Senior Member Join Date: September 17, 2002 Posts: 195	i recently sold 3 cz's on this board. i offered my neighbor his choice for $300 and i'd let him pay it out. but although he liked shooting them with me, he felt understress he might have problems with the safety. so the ruger, it seems to be working out well for him so far. and i like it well enough that looking for one for myself. 187

October 19, 2002, 01:03 AM	#67
fjrogers Member Join Date: September 7, 2002 Location: Las Vegas Nevada Posts: 17	I really like my Kel-tec P-11. I shoot it often and really like the way it shoots. I added a grip extension, trigger boot and slip on grip. It is a great carry gun, dependable and a great value for it’s cost. Good luck with your search. I have seen new P-11’s for $210 to $260. Good luck with your search. Be Safe Fjrogers

October 20, 2002, 10:17 AM	#68
115grfmj Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2001 Posts: 146	S&w 3rd generation value series (not sigma) The value series guns are critically acclaimed. Just not fancy so they get no attention. 1) s&w 457 -.45acp 7 rounds trad. da Massad Ayoobs fav. 2) s&w 410-.40 cal 10round trad da 3)S&w 910-9mm 10rounds trad da I personally own the 910 simply the most reliable hangun I have ever used bar none. have over 4k round through mine , believe me when I tell you the thing will feed empty cases. Accurate, I can manage 3inch groups offhand at 25yards. The 910 take 5906 preban mags, the 410 takes 4006 prebans (I think) do a search and see what other tfl'ers think about them. Your better off sticking with the big names like ruger ,smith, glock, and sig (yeah I know sigs are like a rolls trying to fit in your ford budget but you could find one used)

October 20, 2002, 12:08 PM	#69
wun_8_seven Senior Member Join Date: September 17, 2002 Posts: 195	howto7 , as stated before he has the gun now. and since i'm retired an my dillon is crankin 4 - 5 hours a day he wont have any trouble coming up with practice ammo. 187

September 26, 2004, 03:43 AM	#71
Dr. C Junior Member Join Date: September 25, 2004 Location: California Posts: 14	Don't buy a Smith & Wesson model 457 handgun. It is a fine gun if you just want to make loud noises and not hit anything with it. It has to be the most inacurate gun I have ever fired.

September 26, 2004, 01:39 PM	#72
Jim4003 Member Join Date: September 18, 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 76	Go with a used S and W 357 as some others have suggested. Good solid guns and the 38 is an option for reduced recoil practice. Also there are numerous people out there who can work on the gun. Grips and accessories are plentiful also. With practice, as with most guns, proficiency comes with practice.

September 26, 2004, 11:37 PM	#73
Dorrin 79 Junior Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Location: Central Texas Posts: 11	My experiences with <$200 guns have included... Bulgarian Makarov, $160 or so, including shipping and FFL. Utterly reliable, very accurate. Easy to conceal. Not-so-good sights, bad DA trigger (but good SA), marginal round. Nice blued finish, heavy for its size. Star BM, $170 or so including shipping and FFL. Reliable and accurate, superb SA trigger. Bluing kind of spotty because it had been in some guardia civil officer's holster for 10 years. Good round, mags and parts hard to find. Sights mediocre. Very heavy for it's size, but thin. Kel-Tec P-11 - picked this up for $200 at a gun show. Horrible DAO trigger, light and concealable with good round. Not too accurate (because of aforementioned trigger), mechanically reliable. Many people really like these, I sold it. Bersa .380 Du-Tone - $150 from a friend's roommate. Go for $200 NIB locally. Reliable, accurate, concealable. Marginal round. Only new commercial gun in this price range I would consider. Ruger Security Six, 4" Stainless .357 mag - $190 online auction, ended up costing me $225 with FFL and shipping. Most powerful of this list, accurate and good trigger. Probably best all-around bargain of the lot, although I'm not really into wheelguns. Not really CCW-able, if that is an issue. Some people have suggested the Hi-Point. I have no personal experience with them, but given their reputation I would spend a little more and get one of the above listed.