I will never own another Taurus firearm. I could have ended up another statistic!

[SkySlash]

I know I'm new here, but I am posting here upon the reccomendation of a friend in another bulletin board here: http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenT...4&m=9290922803

I own a Taurus PT 111 .9mm Semi-Automatic Pistol. The gun was purchased new about a month ago, and has only had about 500 rounds fired through it in that time. Since the first shot, I have been unable to get this gun to group shots regardless of the range of the target. It's Double Action Only and has a really long trigger pull and I had just assumed that was a contributing factor. Then I tried shooting at close range using a sandbag, still no good. The gun won't group shots, now I know why. I was at the range yesterday and after about 100 rounds, the firearm experienced complete structural failure. I noticed the failure soon enough to avoid an accident, but had I not, it is extremely likely that upon being fired a few more times, the gun would have severely injured or killed an innocent bystander or myself.

In this image, you can see that the front rivet has come out, and the rear rivet is loose. These rivets bolt the slide mechanism to the frame of the gun and they are made of the same injection molded plastic as the frame. There are three rivets on each side of the gun, and you can see where the rivet has come out in the front due to the open hole it should be in. From this angle you can also see that the rear rivet is slightly extracted.



In this second image of the right side of the frame, you can see that all three rivets have seperated and imploded from the frame. I felt a stinging when I fired the gun and assumed a shell had been ejected strangely so I ignored it. When I felt the sting again, I closely examined the gun and noticed these open rivet holes. Upon field stripping the gun, I noticed that these rivets were holding the slide mechanism to the frame and immediately ceased firing the gun.



This image is of the actual rivets that seperated from the gun. I spent some time looking around the floor of the range and managed to find 3 out of 4 of these. If you look closely at the tips of the rivets, you will notice that they are shorn completely across in a jagged manner. It appears that the rivets cracked as the weapon was being fired, and then imploded out of the frame of the gun due to pressure during operation.



I don't even know what to say. At first I was just stunned at what could have happened, and then I got outraged that such a thing could happen. This gun comes with a hundred safety warnings on proper use and yet it comes apart when handled properly. I am infuriated, and I have lost all faith in Taurus. I just can't trust a company that could manufacture and sell a product like this. I keep thinking maybe I just got a lemon, but a firearm should never have that possibility. This thing is supposed to be combat reliable. Does that include killing the user?

Taurus has an unconditional lifetime repair/replacement warranty on all of their guns, but even if this gun is replaced with a new one, the trust is gone. I'm even more angry because I have invested over $500.00 on the gun and acessories for it, and there is no chance I can get that amount back out of it. How can I trust a gun manufacturer that sold me a bomb disguised as a pistol?

I'm not even sure how to proceed. I've taken these photos, gotten the address to send the gun to Taurus for evaluation, and I plan on writing a letter but I'm not even sure what to say. How do you politely explain something like this to someone you'd rather throttle with a large Louisville Slugger?

-SS

[Erich]

Welcome to TFL!

First, it looks like you haven't contacted Taurus yet. You should give them a chance to make it right. If that means buying back the gun and your accessories . . . well, it might be good business for them to do so.

Second, you bought it new a month ago . . . what did they say when you took it back to the store?

Good luck with it.

[Brasso]

Some people like Taurus. Personally, I never saw anything about them that inspired confidence. They have terrible quality control and aren't put together very well. Cheap engineering. I do own and carry a model 85UL as a backup, but do not shoot it for fear of breaking it. I trust it enough to make 5 shots and it is very light and corrosion proof. I wouldn't own a Taurus of any flavor for primary use.

[SkySlash]

I bought the gun at a gun show and I have not received a response from the dealer, or from Taurus just yet. I sent Taurus an email with a link to the thread in my original post.

Regardless of Taurus's stance, my opinion remains. A Taurus firearm dangerously failed on me and that is difficult if not impossible for me to get past. I purchased this weapon specifically for concealed carry. It failed in a non-combat situation, and given that fact; how could I possibly trust my life to another gun from Taurus?

-SS

[maxinquaye]

Glock.

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All,

I have been preaching about the lack of quality control at Taurus on this forum for quite some
time now; some folk's listen, and lot's of other's
don't? I'm glad you decided to share your experience's with Tauri firearms here with member's of the TFL family; and certainly glad no one was
injured with that "hunk of junk". I would never,
ever trust my life, or the life of a loved one to
the Tauri line; and that's the final answer.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, Life Member N.R.A.

[SkySlash]

I strongly suggest sending a link to this thread to any Taurus owner that you know.

If anyone wishes to contact me personally to discuss this defect, my email is [email protected]

-SS

[Kentucky Rifle]

SS,
Sorry you got a bad one. So did my father in law. We both went to the gun shop to purchase Glocks, I got a G27. However, he thought that the PT111 looked great (it does) and he could save a couple of hundred bucks. He bought a lot of misery for that $200.00. I honestly believe that Taurus automatics are getting better. And Brasso, I wouldn't worry about the light weight of your back-up 85UL. I've got friends who carry the 85UL's as back-ups and have put hundreds of rounds through them for practice at the range with no problems at all. Not even a loose screw! My wife has a Total Titanium 85 that is very light and is as tight as the day she took it out of the box. She's practiced a lot. I just purchased a new Taurus 731UL yesterday (.32 H&R mag) and I expect it to last a long time. (At least, I hope that's the case!)

Kentucky Rifle

[Gunhead]

I don't want to post horror stories on Taurus (because they made some great .38/.357 revolvers in the past), but their quality control is [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]ty!

- We received a brand new Taurus Raging Bull M454 for tests. The action was extremely dangerous, if you cocked the hammer to SA position the gun went off sometimes without touching the trigger!!! It was a very unpleasant and frightening experience for some guys with the full powered .454 Casull. A newbie shooter could blow his leg off with a gun like this.

- Our range master knows a guy who had a PT92 modell. The gun (only 8 months old) blew up with factory ammo, causing major damage to the hand and face. The police investigation showed the responsibility of the manufacturer, the gun was completely faulty. Poor guy never recovered fully from his injuries, lost his job, now he is trying to get money from Taurus.

[dairycreek]

I'm one of those who will never buy another Taurus. Over the last decade I have owned six Taurus revolvers (never owned an auto) that I purchased NIB. Three were fine. They were reliable and I never had a problem with them. Three had serious problems but, good to their warranty, Taurus repaired each of them until they performed to my satisfaction. Remember these were NIB revolvers. Because of my experience I have remained leery of Taurus and have decided that I will not purchase any more.

[7th Fleet]

Welcome to TFL and I agree with you, I had bad experiences with the Tarurus brand back in the 80s and I have not had any use for them since. Check out the Glock, you will like them they are very reliable and rugged guns.


7th

[JohnK]

Send your letter and copies - not originals - of the photos you have to Taurus before sending the gun to see how they want to procede. I would also take more photos with a good quality camera, you can't have to much evidence. You will want to keep your photos and copies of your letter just in case they get lost in the process, either by someone at Taurus or just in the mail.

"Our range master knows a guy who..." No offense Gunhead but a lot of horror stories about many manufacturers of firearms and other pieces of machinery start out like this. Few are personal experiences like Skyslash has had. Every manufacturer can have a lemon get through, but based on anecdotal evidence Taurus seems to have more than their fair share. They do appear willing to fix problems when they come up - small comfort if a defense pistol fails at the wrong time, I know.

My PT92 has had in excess of 5,000 rounds through it, many of them +p handloads, without a problem and no more sign of wear than it had after the initial couple hundred rounds. My father has a PT99 that has had well over 1,000 rounds without a hitch. I have no reservations about trusting my life to my Taurus and would feel confident in any other PT92 series after a few hundred rounds of breaking in.

It seems most of the problems people have with Taurus pistols are with the ones they designed, PT111 for example, and not the ones built on Beretta equipment, aka the PT 92/99/100/101 series. I don't particularly care for the Glocks, but if you really want a polymer frame gun I would follow the suggestions of others here and take a look at a Glock. Of course there are many many threads about Glock KaBooms that could be pointed at to show their failings as well.

Do what you started to do with the Taurus and fire any handgun you plan on using for defense several hundred times before trusting it, you never know when you'll get a lemon.

[AR-10]

Sorry about your bad luck. Don't care for their semi-autos, but I like their wheelguns. I'll buy them again.

I don't want to trivialize your situation or make excuses for Taurus, but if I avoided a brand every time someone posted a catastrophic failure I would be gunless.

If you are posting the facts regarding the age and condition of the gun and you were using factory loads that were not defective, then obviously there is a design flaw with this model that Taurus would be interested in knowing about.

Good luck in your future gun related endeavors.

[Cavè Canem]

Sorry to hear that. Im glad that no one got hurt.

I have a Taurus PT-92 with over 2000 rounds through it with no problems. I dont shoot it that much anymore b/c I like my Glocks better but it has never failed me. Even when a friend gave me bad reloads.

I personally would like to know what the outcome is if possible.

Good luck.

[Tecolote]

I'm really glad you're OK.

I'm a fan of the early import Taurus PT92s. Never tried one that wasn't absolutely reliable, accurate and durable. Their newest offerings are hit or miss. I'm going to get flamed for this, but for polymer I'd stick with the major players like Glock and HK. Polymer frames require massive investments in RD and stringent QC to make them function properly and to make them last. I just don't think Taurus has the kind of necessary resources to maintain top QC with its polymer line.

[SkySlash]

I appreciate all the advice. I still haven't heard from Taurus but I'm going to give them at least two weeks to get back to me before I get annoyed.

I will not ship them the firearm until I have spoken to someone in their shop though. I don't want this firearm swept under the rug.

-SS

[SkySlash]

What do you guys think a fair resolution would be to this?

I will NEVER fire another Taurus manufactured firearm. NEVER, the trust is zeroed out after this.

What do you think it would be fair to ask to Taurus to do about it?

-SS

[Tecolote]

Request a full refund from Taurus, including shipping. If they're smart they'll say yes. A refund is a lot cheaper than facing the possibility that you might initiate legal action against them for making a "faulty" product.

[T. Christy]

Hello all,

This is my first post on this forum although I have been reading posts here for a while. I thought I might add a little story here about Taurus quality.

I have worked in a gun store in Colorado for the last 11 years. About 3 years ago, I was showing two different gentlemen a selection of small revolvers. I had started by showing the first person a S&W model 60 when the other person came up to the counter and asked to see a Taurus. I was in the process of explaining to the first customer why I thought S&W was a good buy when the second began to loudly extol the virtues of the Taurus line of guns. He went as far as saying that anyone who spent more money on the "crap" made in the U.S. was just throwing it away.

Well, I sold this guy a Taurus and put him out on the range while I kept working with the first guy. The Taurus fan managed to get off exactly two rounds from his revolver when the trigger snapped off clean, rendering the gun inoperable. When he came out and showed me what had happened, he made a better sales pitch than I could have!

[George Hill]

Whoa. I'm a fan of Springfield and Taurus guns. First a thread about slides breaking in half on my beloved Stainless 1911s... and now this.

Please excuse me, but my world is caving in. I am going to go sit in a corner with my knees tucked up to my chin and rock back and forth quietly until everyone goes away.

[mrat]

There is not a gun made that has not had a catastrophic failure. Several posters have said get a glock. Well guess what, they have had catastrophic failures also.

[SkySlash]

I believe I was very to the point with my letter. I will be sending this letter to Taurus, Return Receipt requested with Delivery Confirmation in the morning. If you click that link, it is 92KB so be fore-warned its a big file.

If anyone can find the name of the President or CEO of Taurus I would be very appreciative of the information. I would like to send that letter directly to him.

If you are interested in this situation, please read that letter and provide feedback if you don't mind.

Thank You!

-SS

[IanS]

My sympathies. I hope it wasn't your primary defense pistol.

I try to stick to some basic rules when I purchase a firearm for defense.

a. Buy a particular model from a "major" manufacturer that has been widely accepted. For example, a firearm that is being used by US police/leo forces. US forces because we have more money for firearms comparatively and we typically have higher standards and information is readily available. By no means a guarantee, at least it has been put through some stringent use. I refuse to be the guinea pig.

b. Buy a firearm that has been around for at least 4-5 years regardless of make (HK, Sig, Glock, Kimber, Walther all of them). For example, I highly regard guns produced by Sigarms (a highly respected firm) but I still won't consider the P220ST until I see all bugs worked out. (Same goes with new autos, even ones that continue a famous name ie. Mustang, Maxima, Tahoe) I refuse to be the guines pig.

c. A firearm could one day save your life. Paying a little more gives you some peace of mind and your life has no sticker tag. Who care if its the boring typical choice. Go with what has worked. That's why I can't blame anyone going with a good 1911 or the BHP.

This is not to mean Taurus (or less famous brands) make shoddy weapons as a rule. Some of them are excellent but one needs to be more vigilant. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR IN THE OPEN MARKET.

And this is not to say one shouldn't acquire a gun that simply piques your interest. Just don't make it the first one you reach for in times of crisis.


P.S. and for the umpteenth time, The vast, VAST majority of Glock kB's occured with reloads. Something Glock specifically warns against.

[Hal]

SkySlash,
I spent a good number of years resolving customer complaints. Believe it or not, most companies view complaints as a positive thing UNLESS there is even the slightest hint of legal intervention. Once the legal hounds are called, then all communication is immediatly turned over to the legal department.

Using words like never buy another Taurus, investigating, research, fraud etc. are self defeating in an initial corresppondence. Why? Because foremost Taurus wants to sell their product. If you admit right up front you're never going to buy another one, to the point of leaveing the area where one is being fired, then they're going to dismiss you as a potential customer and treat you as a hostile. You're (as well as everyone else if there is some hidden defect in design) far better of to just present the facts of what happened and let Taurus take the next step. Informing them of the legal proceedings against Firestone is kind of pointless also. Trust me on this, any company with any public exposure is well aware of those things. In effect, you're talking down to them. Putting them on the immediate defensive is almost a 100% guarantee that you'll get a form letter from their legal department as a reply.

I bought this firearm upon the recommendation of reputable gun magazines, trusted gun enthusiasts, and most importantly based on the quality replacement/repair guarantee offered by Taurus. I am very disappointed in the quality of this gun

IMNSHO, based on the few thousand complaints I've handled over the years, that's probably the best place to end the letter.

I don't want to come across a dissing your letter OK? I know it's hard to not express how,,,well,,PO'ed you are. I can't blame you there. I'd really recommend rewriting everything, and really try to put as positive a slant on it as you can, and play up to their reputation. Believe me, saying you're done with them is a one way ticket to the bottom of the reply pile. From the looks of things (really ugly ), you have a 100% legitimate complaint.

[craigz]

SkySlash,
I think your letter is a little too tough for a "first contact." I don't think that it's time to threaten them directly with legal action yet. Your explanation and documentation of the incident is excellent, but you don't say what it is that you want them to do. State exactly what you want from them, which is presumably a full refund of your purchase price, and express your hopes that the situation does not become adversarial, forcing you to exercise your considerable legal and political resources.

You should also involve the manufacturer of the ammo you were shooting in this correspondence, as Taurus will almost certainly try to blame them for the malfunction. Include the lot number of the ammo, and save whatever you have left for testing at a later time. Also, try to find out which distributor handled the gun and try to involve them as well. The higher up in the food chain you go, the better they'll listen.

By the way, the name of the President of Taurus is Carlos Murgel, and the Executive VP and COO is called Bob Morrison.