Oddity with 9MM FL Size and or Expansion

[MikeSRuth]

hey folks I have been experincing and odd issue with 9MM once fired cases, but first...Lee Equipent, Press, die, expander. All brands of cases from my indoor range so there is no dirt corrsion issue.
I full length size and decap, then wet wash, then air dry in a custom boix and then store them away.
When ready to use, I use the Lee powder through expander to expand the case mouth and insert a primer on press in one step. Quite often a large batch of several hundred.
I use poly coated bullets from "the blue bullets" and they are a mazingly accurate on diameter, .3545 just every freaking time. I have loaded thousands of them.
OK so the problem is when seating with the Lee die in place I'll go to set a bullet and it almost falls into the case! It's as if it was never sized and that's just not possible. They don't go anywhere until they are FL sized.
I have to stop and pull it usually by hand and or I'll set it asside for later to pull, resize on the same die with no pin in it and all is hunky dory.

Any Ideas? More of a PITA than a concern. If I do slip and pull then handle I know it's bad and set it asside.

Thanks, Mike R

[totaldla]

Read the Lee pamphlet on the steps to reloading.

[Aguila Blanca]

Measure the size of 5 or 10 of the bullets to confirm, then measure the OD on the expander stem of the die. If it's not a couple of thousandths smaller than the bullets, you might take it down a smidge with emery cloth -- or have Lee make you a custom undersized expander stem.

[mehavey]

Measure the size of 5 or 10 of the bullets to confirm,
then measure the OD on the expander stem....

^^^^ THIS ^^^^
That's a start on isolating the problem.

[Jim Watson]

I consider .3545" to be undersize in the first place.

[Aguila Blanca]

.3545" is within SAAMI specs. The spec is .3555" - .003.

That said, Berry's Bullets claims their plated 9mm bullets are .356", which is actually over the SAAMI spec.

[Unclenick]

If measured with a digital caliper instead of an OD thimble micrometer, 0.3545" could be below the actual number if the user doesn't have some toolroom measuring experience and a pin gauge to check it against.

The other factor is that dies have tolerances, and different cases have different wall thicknesses near the neck. Remington pistol cartridge cases, in particular, have had thin walls historically. I needed the equivalent of a small sizing base die to get a reliable bullet grip out of them. Lee doesn't make such a die, that I am aware of, but Dillon sizing dies tend to be tight because a progressive loading operation requires making all brass work without stopping to check each one. They use a tapered carbide insert that puts a bit of extra squeeze on the case mouth. But they aren't cheap because they aren't available individually, so you have to buy the whole set for $130.

To determine if the sizing die diameter is your problem, resize some sample cases with different head stamps and see if you can push bullets into them by hand without expanding. If you can, the sizing die needs to be narrower (contact Lee to see if they will look at your die). If you can't, as mentioned, the powder-through die needs some tweaking. Personally, I like the step profile created by the Lyman Multi-expander powder-through die, as it lets you set the bullet into the case perfectly straight up and down, which improves seating concentricity and accuracy, IME. So, I would get one of those (each one comes with seven expanders for all popular handgun calibers, so you only need one as you expand your caliber collection; hence "Multi-"). I don't like the simple inverted cone flare nearly as well.

Note that a Lee Auto Disk won't screw into the Lyman Multi-expander. If you are using such a setup, read post #3 here.

[jetinteriorguy]

One of the best things I did to eliminate issues with 9mm is to use an undersize sizing die and NOE powder through expander followed by a Lee FCD. With this method no feeding issues, no lop sided bulges in the case, and no crimping issues. I use almost exclusively copper coated or Hitec coated bullets except for carry ammo. I don’t remember the name of the company that made the undersized die but they use a Lee die body and then ream it to their specs.

[Unclenick]

Was this a steel die, then? Carbide can't be reamed. It could be replaced with a tighter ring and then honed out with diamond laps, but that's a lot of time and effort.

[Jim Watson]

I’m not loading specks, I want the largest bullet that chambers.
I use an undersize die for short slick plated or jacketed bullets.

[jetinteriorguy]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

Was this a steel die, then? Carbide can't be reamed. It could be replaced with a tighter ring and then honed out with diamond laps, but that's a lot of time and effort.

Hmm, interesting question. It is a carbide die so I’m assuming they must have their own setup for this somehow. I also see Lee is offering an undersized die now as well. I’ve never actually bothered to measure cases to compare since once I started using the undersize die all my problems disappeared in my tighter chambered pistols. If I had a set of pin dies I’d love to check the ring compared to a normal die to see what difference there is. I’d check some brass but at the moment all my brass is already processed with the undersize die.

[stagpanther]

This is probably a stupid question (every forum has at least one guy who is good at 'em)--but if the bullet fit is loose to begin with--why use the expander in the first place?

[Nathan]

but if the bullet fit is loose to begin with--why use the expander in the first place?

Not stupid at all. I think, but you need to measure, that you will find sized 9mm cases will be 0.005” undersized before expanding.

Expanders, can be cut 0.001-0.003” with sand paper and something to rotate it.

[stagpanther]

Not stupid at all. I think, but you need to measure, that you will find sized 9mm cases will be 0.005” undersized before expanding.

Expanders, can be cut 0.001-0.003” with sand paper and something to rotate it.

I must be fundamentally misunderstanding what the OP has written. I read he used a case mouth expander--which I take to mean flaring the mouth just enough to get the bullet seating going.

[Paul B.]

".3545" is within SAAMI specs. The spec is .3555" - .003.

That said, Berry's Bullets claims their plated 9mm bullets are .356", which is actually over the SAAMI spec."

I won't argue that point but I will argue about barrel dimensions. Slug the barrels on a few 9MMs and it can be an interesting experience.

Ruger P85 groove diameter .3562"

Taurus PT99 Groove diameter .3569"

S&W 6906 Groove diameter estimated to be .3565" Estimate due to 5 groove and lands. Need a special micrometer to measure and I done have one.

I only shoot my home cast bullets in my handguns and for all three I use .358". Bullet size to that diameter will chamber freely and work just fine in my guns. Naturally, YMMV.
Paul B.

[totaldla]

I read this a bit differently.

The OP said he full-length resized and deprimed. But he never measured his supposed "full-length resized" cases.
My guess us that he is (a) using the generic decapping die and not resizing at all or (b) has full-length resizing die set wrong and the case doesn't go far enough into the die to squeeze down the case mouth.

Where is the OP anyway?

IMHO of course.

[reddog81]

Originally Posted by MikeSRuth

OK so the problem is when seating with the Lee die in place I'll go to set a bullet and it almost falls into the case! It's as if it was never sized and that's just not possible. They don't go anywhere until they are FL sized.
I have to stop and pull it usually by hand and or I'll set it asside for later to pull, resize on the same die with no pin in it and all is hunky dory.

Any Ideas? More of a PITA than a concern. If I do slip and pull then handle I know it's bad and set it asside.

Thanks, Mike R

Does this happen with every round?

You mention that it happens with the Lee die... Does that means you have other dies that work like normal?

You say "They don't go anywhere until they are FL sized". What does that mean?

[Nathan]

I must be fundamentally misunderstanding what the OP has written. I read he used a case mouth expander--which I take to mean flaring the mouth just enough to get the bullet seating going.

Agree, but don’t your expanders size the inside of the neck as well as flare? Mine do, except I also have a universal powder through flare too that doesn’t really expand.

By how I read it, the op is not using the expander/flare die in the set, but is using a Lee powder through expander.

[m&p45acp10+1]

Rule out the sizing die being off. See if a bullet will drop into a sized not flared case first. If it does Then set up the die so that there is a cam over if possible. If that is not the issue then work on adjusting the flare die.

[jetinteriorguy]

After rereading your first post you state that upon resizing these cases everything is hunky dory so to me they clearly weren’t sized the first time around. Yet you say that’s impossible, my guess is you short stroked it when sizing and your punch is set deep enough to knock out the primer thus making you think it’s been sized. Or your punch is set just deep enough that on some brass it’s bottoming out before reaching the full depth of the sizing die preventing it from full sizing. I’d guess the former is most likely since they resize properly on the second try.

[totaldla]

Originally Posted by jetinteriorguy

After rereading your first post you state that upon resizing these cases everything is hunky dory so to me they clearly weren’t sized the first time around. Yet you say that’s impossible, my guess is you short stroked it when sizing and your punch is set deep enough to knock out the primer thus making you think it’s been sized. Or your punch is set just deep enough that on some brass it’s bottoming out before reaching the full depth of the sizing die preventing it from full sizing. I’d guess the former is most likely since they resize properly on the second try.

Bingo!

It is easy to set the Lee decapping pin too low OR not set the resizing die according to the instructions.

In any case, if the casing doesn't go far enough i to the die the case mouth will not get squeezed down.

[gwpercle]

Originally Posted by MikeSRuth

hey folks I have been experincing and odd issue with 9MM once fired cases, but first...Lee Equipent, Press, die, expander. All brands of cases from my indoor range so there is no dirt corrsion issue.
I full length size and decap, then wet wash, then air dry in a custom boix and then store them away.
When ready to use, I use the Lee powder through expander to expand the case mouth and insert a primer on press in one step. Quite often a large batch of several hundred.
I use poly coated bullets from "the blue bullets" and they are a mazingly accurate on diameter, .3545 just every freaking time. I have loaded thousands of them.
OK so the problem is when seating with the Lee die in place I'll go to set a bullet and it almost falls into the case! It's as if it was never sized and that's just not possible. They don't go anywhere until they are FL sized.
I have to stop and pull it usually by hand and or I'll set it asside for later to pull, resize on the same die with no pin in it and all is hunky dory.

Any Ideas? More of a PITA than a concern. If I do slip and pull then handle I know it's bad and set it asside.

Thanks, Mike R

Your bullets are way ... Too Small !

I cast my own and find that a size of .357" works best !

.355" and .356" diameter bullets just drop into the case .

Easy answer is to use .357" bullets ... it works like a Magic Charm !
Gary