Sig Sauer decline

[Oldjarhead]

What happened to Sig Sauer in the last ten years? When they abandoned their classic line, and hammer fired pistols, and started making striker fired pistols their problems began. The p320 has become a lawsuit favorite as over eighty lawsuits filed for p320s discharging by themselves. Fortunately for Sig, after early firing pin and dead triggers, the P365 is doing well. With billion dollar military contracts, I doubt Sig will admit the p320 flaws, and possibly endanger p320 owners. I have lost confidence in them.

[bac1023]

Hmm. I beg to differ.

Sig’s hammer fired guns built today are higher quality than any they have made other than the old Swiss factory P210’s and German Mastershop pistols.

[wild cat mccane]

I don't think anyone has been more successful. Taking the failed/discontinued P250 and turning it into a bunch of country's military sidearm with no amount of real effort...that's a success in marketing.

The current cringe worthy effort by Sig to go after people for asking about the P320 safety is real, easy to find on your own from this past month, and it's entirely their own making of just stupid.

Given they hold the contracts and the civilian market is so saturated right now...yeah. It's not a great look right now. They deserve some backlash for sure.

Still on going. Peeps should probably be fired over it.
https://www.instagram.com/p/DHJuG0byui1/?img_index=1

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Oldjarhead

What happened to Sig Sauer in the last ten years? When they abandoned their classic line, and hammer fired pistols, and started making striker fired pistols their problems began. The p320 has become a lawsuit favorite as over eighty lawsuits filed for p320s discharging by themselves. Fortunately for Sig, after early firing pin and dead triggers, the P365 is doing well. With billion dollar military contracts, I doubt Sig will admit the p320 flaws, and possibly endanger p320 owners. I have lost confidence in them.

I agree and disagree with the above.

SIG hasn’t “abandoned” their classic line. They still make the P226/P229 and have even recently introduced new variants of the P226. They also reintroduced the P210. Additionally, the market has shifted. I say this as someone that spent years shooting hammer-fired DA/SA pistols, much of that with SIG’s classic line. DA/SA and DAO hammer-fired pistols were not selling as well as other options. SIG made the same choice as Beretta, FN, HK, etc to introduce a striker fired pistol. That’s not abandoning the line, that’s adapting to a changing market.

I’ll add to the above that I’ve heard from multiple people that worked at SIG that the P320 took the US branch of that company from an importer who transitioned to making pistols on a modest production scale (in terms of industry wide) to the industry powerhouse it is today. SIG’s production levels today absolutely dwarf what they did in the past and their product line is dramatically more diverse. Essentially, the P320 was key in making SIG Sauer, Inc.

With that success has come a number of challenges, not the least of which is quality control and safety concerns with the same pistol that made them successful. I think there are completely legitimate reasons to have concerns about the P320. SIG’s recent marketing attempt of trying to paint those questioning the P320 as anti-gun or attention seeking is unfair and seems to have gone terribly for them. They brought even more attention to the issue and angered many of their own fans in the process. Responses on their social media accounts and fan pages show this out.

Do I think the P320 is inherently unsafe? I have taken dozens of courses at the SIG Sauer Academy. I have been around literally hundreds of P320s in that time, many of them being used in dynamic situations where they are being drawn from concealment, fired in unconventional positions around barricades and obstacles, and by people clambering around those obstacles including climbing through vehicles. I have never once seen a P320 discharge uncommanded. But at the same time I don’t believe all of the reported incidents are from negligence.

I think the P320 will always be an expedient solution. SIG needed a striker fired pistol. They had the modular P250 that had not been a success. The P320 was a way to deal with both of those issues. I think it will always be less than ideal and the P365 is the pistol SIG wishes they had originally. I think the P365 Fuse and the other expansions of the P365 are about having slimmer pistols, but also about having options outside the P320 itself.

My understanding is that Phil Strader was directly involved in the development of the P320. Strader has gone from a Senior Product Manager, to a Director of Product Management, to the Vice President of Consumer affairs in his time at SIG. Couple that with the large contracts won with the P320, including what is likely the largest single contract in the world, and I don’t think SIG is in a position where they can have the P320 go away. They are now tied to that firearm, for better and worse. If that means the OP and others choose not to buy SIG products, I think that’s fair. But I don’t think where SIG went product-wise was unfounded and I don’t think it is the underlying cause of their issues. Beretta, FN, and HK all seem to have released striker fired pistols without the same level of issues. At the same time those pistols, as far as I know, don’t sell nearly as well and aren’t under nearly as much of a microscope.

[5whiskey]

For sure DA/SA and DAO is just not "IN" right now as everyone has fully embraced striker pistols. For what's left of the DA/SA lineup, CZ is a much more serious competitor in the field than they used to be. The P-09 still has a base following in the gun game circuit.

I used to carry a SIG P220 on duty. It was German made, and I loved that gun (despite propensity for rust). But we switched to Glock 45s, and honestly from a law enforcement perspective I can't argue that Glock wins hands down. I am actually a fan of DA/SA for duty carry (that DA first trigger pull tends to force a deliberate pull)... but the low cost, ease of maintenance, simple manual of arms, and reliability of Glock just can't be beat as an agency choice for a duty gun.

For the civilian market, interest in DAO (or DA standard fire) has seemed to gravitate to the revolver market. Revolvers are making a bit of a comeback the past year or two.

The P320 debacle is... well... just that. A debacle. But fan boys are still trying to deny it, and Sig downplays it to the extreme. I do know that a few instances with irrefutable documented proof were handled on the side by Sig discreetly.

[Shadow9mm]

Sig sells what people buy, not that many people in the market gor da/sa ally metal guns anymore. They still offer older models, just not as many and more expensive.

The p320 had design issues. However they passed all the standard drop tests. Just so happened the issue happened in a way that the standard drop tests didn't test for. That issues has been fixed.

From what I saw they had an issue with quality control on some parts, I am unclear if that issue has been resolved.

Personally I would hesitate to buy a p320. But I am more than satisfied with my p365 and trust it.

Their pr campaign was a terrible idea imho. Saying there was no issues when they had a recall for a proven design issue. Sure it's fixed now, but the statement is intentionally omitting that.

[Shoots Left]

That video of the AD in the Montville Conn. cop shop is awfully damning IMO.

I’ll admit, I’ve not followed this development as closely as some but it does seem that the military versions (M17/18s) don’t share the tendency with their civilian brethren to pop off on their own. The two lawsuits, that I’m aware of, brought by US servicemen were both dropped or dismissed due to operator error.

So is the P320 simply one manual safety away from being the pistol it was meant to be?

Again I don’t know too much about this whole matter but I feel like I’d be quite comfortable with a M17/18 hanging on my belt. As for cousin P320…hmmm, not so much.

[JohnKSa]

The whole P320 discharge issue is troubling, but I don't see it as an indictment of SIG's quality overall. They have a problematic design out there and because it's been adopted by the U.S. military they can't just abandon it/discontinue it.

I've always had fit issues with SIG handguns, so I don't buy them, but if that weren't an issue, I wouldn't have a problem buying any SIG handgun on the market--besides the P320.

[L-2]

Post 8 (staff Moderator),
I generally agree with the wording.

I recall, years ago, there were samples which I held at a vendor's table (at a local SWAT competition, probably ~10 years ago) and the P320 felt pretty good compared to my issued Glock. I'd no idea of the internal trigger mechanism, but seemed to recall a brochure which showed an option of a trigger with a Glock-like trigger safety (aka, the "dingus"). Perhaps I'm dreaming or that trigger-safety version of the trigger later got cancelled.

I do own three SIGs, a P225, P226, and P229 and my initial impression was the double-action-1st-shot trigger reach was too far of a reach, but after shooting my first one, the P225, awhile, I got used to it. My later P226 and P229 each came with the "E2" grips, which allowed a shorter trigger reach, but I later switched them over to stock screw-on grips giving me that slightly longer trigger reach which I'd then got used to having that longer reach.

I suppose I'm glad I'm not working somewhere where I'd be mandated to carrying the P320 series, although apparently there are LEOs/Mil personnel who are having zero problems, and hopefully no worries regarding that family of handguns at all. I retired from an LE department which mandated the use of an issued Glock 17 (gen4).

I did come across one acquaintance who likely bought his P320 as his limited research showed SIG being a reputable brand name and was aware LE/Mil was buying versions from the P320 family. He, probably like several folks out there, don't read about firearms, the news, or forums and was totally unaware of any potential problems, whether news, opinion, or hearsay.

My own state police (NV) apparently is issued the P320 series but I've never spoken to the NV Highway Patrol or NV State Police. I think the NV Highway Patrol/State Police mandates the use of the issued handgun rather than allowing choice of a personally-owned other brand of model, but I can't swear to that.

[FITASC]

If you have a problem with the current SIG, the current Prez is the past Prez of Kimber; take that for what it's worth.

[5whiskey]

I’ll admit, I’ve not followed this development as closely as some but it does seem that the military versions (M17/18s) don’t share the tendency with their civilian brethren to pop off on their own. The two lawsuits, that I’m aware of, brought by US servicemen were both dropped or dismissed due to operator error.

There's a very easy explanation for this. Any given major military base (with a division sized unit) will have 10+ thousand pistols in the armory. 98% will actually have live rounds loaded once a year or less. Only MPs and gate guards actually carry around base loaded. Generally, all other pistols will only see live rounds loaded on the range, and very rarely at that. So you have a giant section of Sigs market that will sit in amories (with the occasional trip to the field, but still empty) unloaded 99.99% of their lifespan. It's easy to generate low AD incident statistics that way.

[44caliberkid]

Darn, now this thread has me looking at 220/226’s again.

[Metric]

TBH, I've had some great success with my latest hammer-fired sig-sauer purchased last year. I'm wearing it right now, and it allows me to make long shots at the range that people can't believe, given the size. Hard to imagine what I could replace it with that would have the same blend of capabilities.

[FoghornLeghorn]

I've got six Sigs. 3 P226s (2 of those are Legions). 2 P239s. 1 P220 (45 ACP). And a Sig 716.

Sorry OP. You don't know what you're talking about.

[DT Guy]

've got a P365 and a 365Xl, and like them.

A bit of Googling, though, will find a YouTube video with an experienced trainer fixing a trigger return spring (takes him about 2 minutes, would take me half an hour) for a student. He actually carries a bag of them in his range kit, as so many break in his classes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBMuswgZW2Q&t=201sI


This wasn't really heartening; has anyone heard anything similar?

Larry

[FoghornLeghorn]

deleted

[Shoots Left]

I don’t believe that SIG is in some overall decline rather it’s more about possibly having one stinker in the product line. So early on the decision makers decided to stick by their guns (no pun intended) and see the situation out through the court system.

The way I see it, it’s nothing personal in the corporate world, the humanity doesn’t matter. The driving force is the bottom line of the CFO’s spread sheet. Is it more cost effective to recall and fix/destroy or fight it out in court? Then again maybe there isn’t anything wrong with theP320 and SIG has no choice but to fight in court, dunno.

Early P320 lawsuits against the firm were no doubt brought on by individuals seeking relief from what they claimed to be a faulty product. In many cases the individual hired the attorney. That’s a steep hill to climb in the court system against a corporate adversary. But now, a big fancy-schmancy law firm is taking cases against SIG and SIG legal has to fight in its own weight class all of a sudden.

It’s gonna get interesting.

[4V50 Gary]

I thought this thread was going to be about MIM parts.

My only Sig is a W. German made P220.

DAO was developed b/c police couldn't transition from SA/DA triggers. Not enough range time and the cops threw away the first shot. They did better with revolvers where most agencies (and academies) used DA. DAO was the cheap solution to DA/SA. Just make them all DAO.

The Sig P320 is a matter of liability. Introduce a dangerous (I'll let you define that) into the stream of commerce and you get slapped. Ruger improved the Blackhawk with the two screw model that had the transfer bar. However, since the older Blackhawks didn't have this feature, Ruger was sued for introducing an unsafe firearm (was told this at Ruger). If Sig were to introduce a Glock type trigger safety, it would be an admission that the earlier design was not as safe as it could have been.

I think we need tort reform. The civil court system is the American method of gaining wealth. Certainly we do need to have some liability, like the Ford Pinto (see the historical documentary Top Secret with the late Val Kilmer), but there should be some element of malice involved. Sig didn't want to release a dangerous product.

[Armybrat]

Metric…. Your Sig reminds me of my Colt Government .380

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by DT Guy

've got a P365 and a 365Xl, and like them.

A bit of Googling, though, will find a YouTube video with an experienced trainer fixing a trigger return spring (takes him about 2 minutes, would take me half an hour) for a student. He actually carries a bag of them in his range kit, as so many break in his classes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBMuswgZW2Q&t=201sI


This wasn't really heartening; has anyone heard anything similar?

Larry

I’ve heard that too. In the courses I’ve taken at SIG I have never seen one break, and my own XL has 3700 rounds through it without breaking a trigger return spring.

[Metric]

Originally Posted by Armybrat

Metric…. Your Sig reminds me of my Colt Government .380

Oh yes -- it's part of a line of pistols that goes much farther back than is commonly appreciated.

The P938 is obviously a scaled up version of the P238 in 380. The P238 is a very close derivative of the Colt Government/Mustang .380 design of the 1980's and 90's. That was, in turn, closely based on the Colt Pony concept of the 1970's -- a joint project with Star (who made the prototypes and would presumably have been the main manufacturer) that never went into full production. And the Pony was based on the Star D-series that had various versions going all the way back to 1922.

[hikingman]

The German Sigs are still available. Most of those seem to be discontinued- that's okay.

Let's enjoy proven models (single stack included), and not fret about double digit capacity for CCW. Learning fast mag changes and accuracy is beyond the experience of most Sig owners, IMO. Likely, the majority of Sig owners have not spent significant time in timed handgun competition- honing their skills, and then continuing to practice at regular intervals.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by hikingman

Learning fast mag changes and accuracy is beyond the experience of most Sig owners, IMO. Likely, the majority of Sig owners have not spent significant time in timed handgun competition- honing their skills, and then continuing to practice at regular intervals.

Given SIG’s success in adoption rates of the P320 in USPSA and the fact that a number of competitive shooters, current and former, are on their staff currently this strikes me as a bizarre comment, at least if you direct it solely at SIG and not the gun owning public as a whole.

[JohnKSa]

While I agree with the statement, I think limiting it to SIG owners misses the larger point. I would say that likely the majority of handgun owners, regardless of the brand of the handguns, have not spent any significant time doing real training with their handguns.

[glider]

Originally Posted by FITASC

If you have a problem with the current SIG, the current Prez is the past Prez of Kimber; take that for what it's worth.

and that is absolutely nothing!