Want to load some cartridges for possible Black bear loads.

[jrothWA]

Have some cat bullets using a supplier in NW Ohio.

The hardness data from the company, is BHN of 16.

Calibers are the .44 Mag and the .45LC.

Bullets are 200gr. RNFP for both calibers, there is a .45 SWC in 200gr.

What velocities to consider if need to use??

Firearms are T/C Contender using 10 inch barrels, and Ruger 4.5 inch BlackHawk in .45LC

Thanks.

I have source some rubber balls cartridges for first use.

[blackhawk44]

With cast you need penetration. 250-270gr would be better than lighter weights. Bullet hardness does not cure all ills. Something around BH 12 would likely be more accurate and lead less. The softer slug would obturate (expand to fill the bore) better and prevent gas blowby, thus melting lead into the bore. A charge of something that would yield about 875-900fps should be fine. Look at powders such as AA#5, BE86, Longshot and the like.

[jrothWA]

Tango Yankee! HAVE Longshot.

[ligonierbill]

Frankly, I would never load something that light. You're talking target bullets. There's a standing debate over jacketed vs. hard cast, and I've yet to resolve it in my own mind, but the discussion is for relatively hard, large cast bullets. When I was shooting 44 Mag, the only cast I ran was a 320 gr Cast Performance.

I still load a lot of 45 Colt. Standard load is a 255 gr Missouri Bullet at Bn 18 running a bit over 1,000 (7 1/2" Blackhawk). I got some of the same bullets at Bn 12 to load in a Remington 1858 conversion cylinder running blackpowder.
But mostly, and always if I were hunting, I load Cast Performance hardcast 335s at "Ruger only" level. Real knuckle busters.

Soft 200s for bear? Nope.

[Unclenick]

Well, this is black bear, which is not hard to kill. If you were likely to run into a polar bear, then I would say you should think in terms of a 45-70 Guide Gun.

If you slug your barrel to confirm there is no constriction where the barrel screws into the frame, and you confirm your cylinder throats are bigger than the groove diameter of your bore and as big as your bullet diameter, you won't have to worry about bullets being soft enough to bump up, and the hard ones will be fine,

The 200-grain SWC would be my choice among the bullets you mention, but I also agree with the others that heavier is a better guarantee of adequate penetration. Look for something with a flat tip, like the WFN designs, or even the LFN designs. The RFN bullets are good at penetration, but poor at damaging tissue along the way, and should be avoided, IMHO.

[jrothWA]

I worked @ Boeing in Everett, Wa., for the weekends.

I would hike the Stevens Pass area for the old switch backs of the rail grade.

I first, had a meeting with a black bear, after heard a sounds and spotted a the head as it lifted from the rotting tree trunk.

I slipped behind a stand tree and observed it feeding further, and scanned for possible cubs.

Did not spot any cubs and the bear resumed feeding.

I walk away from the tree [covering my previous trail] and got around a bend in the trail. Then backed to the trailhead and noted the location in the recording notebook for others to know.

i was carrying my 4-inch RSS6 with 140HP Hornady but decide not to draw.

The following week I spoke with the Sierra Techs for loading the two pistols,

they recommend using the Federal "hot-cast" 180gr cartridges.

Also they recommended for the ,45ACP, to use the heaviest cast and maximum velocity to insure control of the recoil and maintain a group.

[44 AMP]

Your Contender is .44 Mag??

Mr Black Bear is not a difficult animal to dispatch, PROVIDED you put the bullet in the right place, and that gets a bit tricksy for many, because the vitals are inside a shaggy loose fitting bear suit, and aren't quite where you expect them to be.

In the .45 Colt I've been using nothing but 250gr hard SWCs for nearly 40 years, over 10gr Unique. Its a hot load in a Colt SAA, but listed in the old books. From my 7.5" Ruger Blackhawk it runs just a bit under 1100fps. From the shorter barrel gun, it should still get you in the 900+fps range.

Hunting a bear, and stopping an attacking bear are more than slightly different things.

Uber heavy bullets are the rage now, have been for a while, but I never had a need or use for them. I don't run 180s in my .357s or 300gr in my 44s or .45s. Just no point that I can see.

[Mike / Tx]

Well both my revolvers in 44 and 45C are 7.5" Redhawks so that won't help you out much. I do have both calibers for my Contender as well but in the Super 14's though. That said we don't run across many black bears in our woods, 100 - 300# feral hogs we have though. I would put them on a scale of 1-10 as around an 8 for average people to drop not that they are hard to kill but their vitals aren't where you would think they should be.

Most of my hunting loads use hollow point bullets in the standard weight for caliber like a 240 for the .44 or a 250 for the 45C. My own cast bullets run just a touch heavier at around a 260'ish for the 44 or a 270-280'ish for the 45C.

As mentioned, the wide flat nose or long flat nose would probably be your best bet depending on the chamber in your barrels. I have a Super 14 in both calibers and the 44 has had issues with some of the WFN type bullets. They just hit the start of the lands where a more rounded profile doesn't.

I usually run no harder than around a 12 BHN alloy as well. It just seems to work out fine for all my loads even running them up into the higher pressures of my 454's. For powders I like 296/110, AA-9, 2400, and HS-6. Most everything I load is in the 1200FPS range and up.

IF you want something that will hit hard and penetrate from appetite to a-hole look for something in the 240 - 300gr for the 44 that is a WFN profile like some pictured here, Montana Bullet Works 44mag For the 45C look at their selections there as well. Something from 250 - 280grs moving along at 850 - 1100fps will do a number on a big bodied critter. There are less expensive companies that also cast those type bullets, but I can say you get what you pay for with Montana, they produce some VERY nice products.

[ammo.crafter]

All look effective. I'm a 41Mag S&W bear hunter and use 220gr hard cast lead .

20 years ago I took (or thought I took) a 245lbs hog with my 444 Marlin and after the hit put the rifle up against a tree (lever opened) and turned to see this boar up on all 4 feet and not too happy.

As it charged, I just happened to have my model 57 on my hip and after 3 very controlled frontal shots put it down.

Hard cast lead is for me.

Let us know how things go.

[oldbear1950]

I am retired coast guard, after 20 years and was stationed in Kodiak, AK, twice,
from 1975-1978 and again from 1983-1986, and both times the Alaska Fish and Game Department recommended two guns for bears, namely grizzly and brown bears, the Marlin 1895 45-70, and a 12 guage pump with slugs. That was it.
That was before the guide guns came out.
Now with Henry and Rossi producing lever guns in 45-70 and the various 1886s is a lot more to choose from, and of course still have the Marlin/Ruger 1895, and RUGER #1S

[Unclenick]

AFGD was wanting heavy bullets in a repeater for follow-ups. Makes sense to me. A friend's sister stopped a grizzly with a 44 Mag up there on forestry duty, but it's because it was what she had available for an emergency, and not because she was intentionally bear hunting with it. Still, knowing it can be done if it has to be done leads you to good confidence in the 45-70 from a rifle barrel.

[gwpercle]

In 45 Colt I would use this load data taken from the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual ,
45 Colt for Ruger and Contender Only
200 gr. cast SWC - RCBS 45-200-SWC
starting load - 17.8 grs 2400 @ 1145 fps
maximum load - 19.8 grs 2400 @ 1321 fps

CCI #350 Magnum Primers used .

These are heavy loads ... to be shot in Ruger and Contender handguns only .

My buddy settled on a load of 19.0 grs 2400 with the 200 gr. SWC for both his Ruger and his Contender ...
they were accurate and plenty hard hitting .
Start Low and work up ...
Load Safe ,
Gary

[snoeproe]

My old 300 savage has taken many black bears over the years. 3 more last fall. 150g hot core and Varget reloads.

[FrankenMauser]

Run whatever shoots better for you. Black bears are like big cats: Very threatening and capable of major damage to the human meat bag; but also very fragile and easy to kill.

Of the listed bullets, I would prefer the SWC. But I wouldn't use any of them. I'd be looking for something between 270 and 325 gr.
Heavier is pretty much always better.

Put the bullet where it needs to go, and the 200s will be fine. But heavier is better.

Soft 200s for bear? Nope.

Short and sweet but controversial opinion:
Soft is good.
Hard is bad.

It has been 10 years since testing had to stop because of life changes, but we analyzed performance of bullet shapes and alloys on the MarlinOwners forum for 4-5 years. (Ironically, I have never seen a similar analysis done on the Castboolits forum.)
The takeaway for most of us was that too many people are using alloys that are too hard.
Not only do the hard alloys almost never expand enough to be helpful, but the hard alloys combined with a wide flat nose erode/shear into a conical shape at higher velocities. The harder the alloy, the lower the velocity at which that begins.
All of the "benefits" of that flat nose go right out the window when it turns itself into a pointy slug. Sure, you get a lot of penetration. But with minimal soft tissue damage. They're like using FMJs, once the nose erodes/shears - which happens very quickly, and more quickly, the higher the velocity.

Flat nose is great, but mostly only when paired with a softer alloy.

Even for velocities up to 2,400 fps in .444 Marlin, I generally don't cast anything harder than BHN 11-12 now.

[ammo.crafter]

I was under the impression that BHN is based upon muzzle velocity vis-a-vis land and groove contact as regard lead.

[44 AMP]

I was under the impression that BHN is based upon muzzle velocity vis-a-vis land and groove contact as regard lead.

BHN is the alloy hardness scale, and which hardness is most suitable depends on the velocity and the fit to the bore.

Which hardness gives the desired down range performance may be different that the one that leads the least.