I "was" a Time traveler with a "Stolen" Firearm?

[StickySC]

Greetings from South Carolina, I went to Florida the other week, and left a bag at the "1 week rental house" Mostly a Bag w/ socks, an underwear, a few magazines, and a Ruger Pistol I've had for 20years. I contacted the Host and let them know I left my Firearm and found a FFL dealer an set it up to ship my gun back to me.

They ran the NiSC check, and it came back Stolen from NC in 2014, but they said the model didnt match on the search.

Stunned for a second i thought i had purchased a stolen firearm from the South Carolina Gun show way back when, till my wife reminded me, ive had that gun alot longer than that. 2005/2008

I purchased some Trijicon model specific sights for the firearm back in December 2012, had a picture of the firearm disassembled, and sight packaging that was posted on social media and Date stamped. (probably the only time ive done that)
The gun in Question is fitted with those sights.

Police Departmant informed me that they have concluded their investigation, and are sending the firearm to North Carolina. And ill have to take it up with them to get my firearm back.

The detective in NC said he would look into it the information i provided.

im not even sure how to go about this, do i get a lawyer, in Florida, since that was where my property was taken. Or will i have to fight this in NC?

Ive already contacted both local PD, FBI, ATF and might call the DOJ tomorrow.
ive also emailed Ruger's customer service as to whether Dupicate serial Numbers could be found on Guns in a "different model family" as i have read online.

I took the gun with me so it wouldnt get stolen on vacation, i didnt expect the state to steal it from me. Seriously a firearm that i purchased sights for in 2012, was stolen in 2014, and was found when the person who purchased sights for it tried to legally ship it back to his-self when he left it on vacation..

"yep, thats got to be the gun we've been looking for."

( I Have a Valid SC CWP- everything i did was within the law) ( i was dumb for not double checking the closet before check out)

[Aguila Blanca]

No state "stole" your firearm from you. You left it behind. What followed is an unfortunate combination of circumstances, but if the gun is in North Carolina I see nothing to be accomplished by contacting anyone in Florida.

You wrote that the PD in Florida said they are sending (or have sent) the gun to North Carolina. To whom did they send it? Logic suggests that you need to contact whoever currently has possession to arrange for getting your property returned.

[44 AMP]

Something similar has happened to other people in the past and can still happen today, because of manufacturers using the same blocks of numbers for different models of pistols, and because police records are often crap, recording only part of the information.

For example one fellow was accused of having a stolen gun, because "his" gun was in the police records as stolen, listed as S&W .38 caliber ser#xxxxxxx
Its possible for more than one ".38 caliber" S&W to have the same serial number, and be completely different guns.

Your situation might be the result of something similar to that. OR it could also be that the person who filed the report (or entered it into a database) could have made a mistake with the number.

Good Luck

[JohnKSa]

Agree with .44AMP.

I'm guessing someone reported a gun stolen but provided an incorrect serial number--or the serial number was entered into the system incorrectly.

If you have compelling evidence that you owned the gun before it was stolen, you should be able to get it back. Whether it will be worth the cost and hassle of retrieving it is another story.

[dogtown tom]

First, your story makes no sense, here's why:
An FBI NICS check doesn't have any information about the firearm other than type.....as in handgun/long gun/other firearm. No serial number, no manufacturer, no caliber etc is given to NICS. A NICS check is a background check on the buyer/transferee, not the firearm.

A Florida dealer wouldn't run an FBI NICS check on a firearm he's shipping to a dealer in your state. An FFL can only run a NICS check after the buyer/transferee has completed a Form 4473.

It sounds like the Florida FFL or your host turned the pistol over to local PD who ran the serial# through the FBI NCIC Stolen Property database, not FBI NICS. NCIC includes stolen firearms and is compiled from local police department submissions....it is rife with errors. Thats because someone could misremember a serial# or a simple typo.

A dozen years ago a Frisco, TX detective accused a customer of possessing a stolen AK pistol.....because NCIC said that serial# was stolen. The pistol was reported stolen before it was ever manufactured or imported. I asked the detective why he didn't run the trace through ATF National Tracing Center, he said he would. ATF set him straight and the gun was returned.

I get about a dozen trace requests a year from ATF National Tracing Center. Those trace requests have included a Glock who's frame was in my safe, meaning the numbskull submitting the trace didn't have the Glock, but just the slide or barrel.
I've had trace requests for a customers pistol that he had in his safe. I knew he never sold his guns, so I had him take a photo on the cover of that days newspaper. I had a trace request for a Kahr MP6. No such pistol. There is a Kahr PM9..... seems the idiot submitting the request either transposed digits or is dyslexic.

If you bought the pistol from a licensed dealer there will be a Form 4473 showing your name. An ATF NTC trace on the serial# of your gun will start at Ruger>distributor>dealer>first 4473. If you bought the gun new that will show you as the buyer.

[StickySC]

I agree, it dosent make sense.

The NC officer said he would do a etrace, after he receives the gun. im not sure what that will prove in my case. (thanks for the info DogtownTom)

[bamaranger]

It's been a little over a decade, but when working I "ran" quite a few firearms through NCIC for routine check for stolen. Policy to "check for stolen" on any firearm rangers encountered in the field. At that time, possession of a firearm in a National Park was prohibited, unless unloaded, cased and not available for use. (Those regs have changed to mirror respective state law across the country BTW).

Anyhow, it was not uncommon to get serial number hit. Seems as I recall dispatchers referred to that as a "soundex" hit, but it's been a while. One then had to pay attention to make and caliber in the NCIC description, and it seems I remember there might have been a categorization for long gun or handgun as well. So the officer in the field needed to do a bit of interpretation of "hits".
Also the dispatcher had to have their act together as well in deciphering the printout/return.

Another common issue was data entry error. The agency entering the firearm in the system would get a number wrong, or caliber/chambering, even long gun v. handgun. Usually a message or call to the entering agency would clear that up. Sometimes the responsible party was not immediately available, especially if the agency was small.

All that said, it was an effective, if somewhat flawed system, and it was relatively common to turn up an actual stolen gun. The originating agency was always interested in the party that possessed it, and often it would lead to a break on a theft ring , burglary , theft from a MV, etc.

Best of luck on the OP's circumstances.

[4V50 Gary]

Bet there's a typo somewhere in the serial #.

[44 AMP]

I checked with my S&W guru, and there are at least half a dozen models of S&W that would fit under a listing that only says "S&W .38 caliber" and ser#s need to include the LETTER at the start of the number in order to be accurate.

If the person reporting the stolen gun, or the cop taking down the information doesn't get ALL of it fully correct, then you are going to have situations of "false positives" happening.

And, this kind of thing is not just limited to S&Ws, many gunmakers over the years have used the same repeating blocks of numbers for different models they make, and not just handguns, either.

[StickySC]

Called NC yesterday, they still havent received the Firearm from Florida.

A differant officer said "if"the ATF trace came back to me ( it wont because i purchased as private sell at a gunshow) they would return my property.

I have spoken to Ruger, and the model didnt have any reused serial numbers.
What constitutes Gun Ownership?

I did find the packaging for the sights, that i have a receipt for from 2012, that i have a time date stamped photo of with the packaging and firearm (2012) and still possess that packaging containing the original sights for the firearm that they claim was stolen in 2014. That currently the firearm is equipped with.

The State seems to think that I must provide them with Serial Numbers to prove that the firearm is mine, which was seized in the process of me legally having my firearm returned to me. That, was not passed the 10 day requirement in SC to report as stolen/missing.

IMO i have proven that i had ownership prior to the claimed theft in 2014, they can do their investigation, but if my property is not returned, then isnt that a violation of my 2nd and 4th amendment constitutional/ civil rights.

[dogtown tom]

StickySC Called NC yesterday, they still havent received the Firearm from Florida.

Interesting. Shouldn't take more than a couple of days via Priority Mail.

A differant officer said "if"the ATF trace came back to me ( it wont because i purchased as private sell at a gunshow) they would return my property.

You may have to file suit to retreive your property.

What constitutes Gun Ownership?

The same thing that constitutes ownership of anything that isn't a gun.
A Form 4473 would only be a record of the transfer of possession from a licensed dealer to a buyer. It is not proof of ownership, but possession. No federal law requires a 4473 in a sale between nonlicensees.

I did find the packaging for the sights, that i have a receipt for from 2012, that i have a time date stamped photo of with the packaging and firearm (2012) and still possess that packaging containing the original sights for the firearm that they claim was stolen in 2014. That currently the firearm is equipped with.

That might help a judge/jury in a civil suit, but a civil suit ill cost you more than the gun is worth.

The State seems to think that I must provide them with Serial Numbers to prove that the firearm is mine, which was seized in the process of me legally having my firearm returned to me. That, was not passed the 10 day requirement in SC to report as stolen/missing.

Which is reasonable....who else but the owner would know that serial#?

IMO i have proven that i had ownership prior to the claimed theft in 2014,

You have a photo of the gun showing the serial#?
You have a receipt showing a serial#?

they can do their investigation, but if my property is not returned, then isnt that a violation of my 2nd and 4th amendment constitutional/ civil rights.

No.

[StickySC]

So possession would equal ownership unless proven otherwise Correct?


I would say alot legal gun owners don't know their serial numbers. That alone, isn't a reason to dismiss ownership, or claim to their property.

Sorry, I haven't figured out how to do the quote replys.

[dogtown tom]

StickySC So possession would equal ownership unless proven otherwise Correct?

If I stole your gun, I have possession, but not ownership.

I would say alot legal gun owners don't know their serial numbers.

Well, I dont have the VIN to my car handy, but I do have records to show that VIN if needed.

If a gun owner doesn't write down his serial#'s........how the heck is he going to report the gun if lost or stolen?
He can't.

That alone, isn't a reason to dismiss ownership, or claim to their property.

Apparently in your case it is.
NCIC says it was stolen.
You say you possessed it before that stolen property report was entered into NCIC.

Either you or the person reporting it stolen are going to need some kind of proof to get the gun back. Just saying "It's mine" doesn't work, otherwise I would own a newer car, more land and lots more guns.

[JohnKSa]

This may not be a valid concern at all, but I feel like I have to mention it.

What you're doing, depending on how it works out, might effectively be trying to prove that you own a gun that is listed as stolen. It seems like there could be a potential pitfall in there somewhere.

[bamaranger]

Agreed. It's not clear to me from the OP's comments if he bought the gun new, or from a private party. If bought from a private party, the gun may well be stolen, though the seller may not have known it either.

If the OP bought the gun new, then there should be ATF records of where the gun was purchased and when.

For the gun to be listed in NCIC, the serial number and other descriptors would have to have been provided by an originating agency (meaning, the agency who took the stolen report). It sounds in this case a PD in NC is the ORI (originatinig agency). So...there SHOULD be a honest to gosh police report with further details in the case and hopefully a better description of the gun and circumstances.

What likely may have occurred to get to this point is the rental property people took the gun to their local PD in Florida. That PD likely either did a search for stolen, or entered the gun as "recovered" which would generate a hit if the gun (well the serial number) was listed as stolen in the system. I would think that for a Florida PD to ship a firearm to a PD in NC, there would have to be a more compelling reason than a simple serial number match. As we have discussed , one can have matching numbers and all sorts of variables come into play to render it NOT the gun being sought. If Florida has "finished their investigation" and NC has requested it shipped back to them, I'm thinking LE believes the gun is indeed stolen.

Here's a twist to a similar story. A pal of mine sold a M27 to a lifelong friend. My pal had inscribed his DL # on the frame under the grip prior that. The recovering PD contacted my pal, who had to state he had sold the gun to a friend. I never heard how the episode turned out.

[StickySC]

Gun was purchased as a private sale at a gun show, somewhere between 2004-2008. The Reporting officer tried to say that these numbers were updated every 10years, also said not to contact anyone else, before he took his 3 day weekend. That Thursday.

Yes, I am claiming a gun that was reported stolen in 2014, because there is no way that's the Gun. IMO the receipt for the optics that are on the firearm proves ownership prior to 2014.

Imo, they're trying to do civil asset forfeiture, and targeting a tourist who would have a hard time fighting this. When the NCIC hit, they said the model didn't match.

The FL Pd suggested I take photos of all my firearms with serial #s. I did start taking photos of my lawnmowers, guitars ect. But sadly I lost all my other firearms in a tragic boating accident.

I feel like big bro, could go into Google photos if any 2nd amendment action is ever passed

The DOJ has a departmentthat investigates CivilRights violations, Where any doctoring of reporting, ect that is used to seize my property an violate my 2nd and 4th is a felony.

[JohnKSa]

Imo, they're trying to do civil asset forfeiture, and targeting a tourist who would have a hard time fighting this.

Most all LE destroys guns that they don't need to keep for evidence. It's not like they are going to enrich themselves or the department by keeping it.

Where any doctoring of reporting, ect that is used to seize my property an violate my 2nd and 4th is a felony.

1. They didn't seize your property--you lost it.
2. As far as they and the law is concerned, at this point, you haven't established that it is your property and there's another competing claim to it that appears to be better documented than yours. That's the entire problem.

The FL Pd suggested I take photos of all my firearms with serial #s. I did start taking photos of my lawnmowers, guitars ect. But sadly I lost all my other firearms in a tragic boating accident.

I feel like big bro, could go into Google photos if any 2nd amendment action is ever passed.

They probably could. But avoiding that doesn't require not keeping records--just don't put them in the cloud or upload them to an online account.

[dogtown tom]

StickySC
....Yes, I am claiming a gun that was reported stolen in 2014, because there is no way that's the Gun. IMO the receipt for the optics that are on the firearm proves ownership prior to 2014.

Do you think the tires on my car prove I owned the car?
Your optics receipt shows you bought optics. Nothing else.

Imo, they're trying to do civil asset forfeiture, and targeting a tourist who would have a hard time fighting this. When the NCIC hit, they said the model didn't match.

No, its what you would expect when LE runs an NCIC trace and gets a hit.

The FL Pd suggested I take photos of all my firearms with serial #s. I did start taking photos of my lawnmowers, guitars ect. But sadly I lost all my other firearms in a tragic boating accident.

They gave you good advice, sad that you make it a joke.

I feel like big bro, could go into Google photos if any 2nd amendment action is ever passed

Oh good grief.

The DOJ has a departmentthat investigates CivilRights violations, Where any doctoring of reporting, ect that is used to seize my property an violate my 2nd and 4th is a felony.

Seizing a stolen firearm doesn't violate any of your civil rights.
It's exactly the process you would want if it were your stolen firearm.

[dogtown tom]

OP,
It's this simple.....the person who reported that firearm as stolen will need to provide the same proof as you. If he can't, then he'll face the same difficulties as you in getting the firearm returned.

A simple ATF NTC trace will show the first 4473. Thats a huge clue and may lead to your gun show seller.

In any event, gun forums can't fix your predicament. only the LE agency or the courts can.

[5whiskey]

Sigh... OP, I read your posts and it's fairly easy to understand what is going on. The gun entered stolen in NCIC had the same S/N, but it is not the same model of firearm as yours. Because the hit was confirmed off of make and S/N, it's believed that your pistol is the stolen pistol. Except you purchased your pistol at least 6 years before the pistol entered in NCIC was stolen. That is a VERY unique story... about as likely as a lightening strike.

As others have said, this could have easily been avoided by not forgetting your pistol. No one illegally searched you and seized it. You called to have it shipped to your ffl, the ffl in Florida did his due diligence and checked the S/N. Now your pistol is off to NC.

Since you bought it private party at a gun show, even if the cop in NC (God's country, btw) runs an ATF trace you won't get the pistol back. A LE agency will not release a firearm to someone without sufficient proof that they are the legal owner. A well written bill of sale, the gun trace if you bought it new, or some other legitimate proof would be required. Not trying to burst your bubble, but I am trying to temper expectations. A receipt for an aftermarket sight purchased in 2012 proves nothing. Is the optic on the firearm specific to that firearm? How many 100s of thousands of those optics have been sold? That no more proves ownership than a receipt for tires on a car, to use Dogtown Tom's analogy.

The FL Pd suggested I take photos of all my firearms with serial #s. I did start taking photos of my lawnmowers, guitars ect. But sadly I lost all my other firearms in a tragic boating accident.

I feel like big bro, could go into Google photos if any 2nd amendment action is ever passed

I don't know what to say to this. You have pictures of your guitars, but not pictures and a S/N spreadsheet of your firearms? So if burglars were to clean you out next week (safes can be broken into rather easily), all of the gang bangers who buy your guns off the streets have nothing to fear with possessing a stolen firearm if caught by police because you don't have enough information for the Police to enter it as stolen. If your irrational fear of Google photos linking you to firearms in some dystopian anti 2a future (which has a lesser chance of happening than a double lightening strike at this point, we have gained more rights the last 10 years than have been lost) keeps you from having pics on Google pica, then just take pictures and keep them on a flash drive. It's about a billion times more likely that you will lose, or have stolen, another firearm than it is that the government will start actioning Google for pictures of firearms to go seize in a raid of otherwise lawful gun owners. Having that picture sure would help in the more likely scenario.

Imo, they're trying to do civil asset forfeiture, and targeting a tourist who would have a hard time fighting this. When the NCIC hit, they said the model didn't match.

This is just silly. You have absolutely no proof of ownership at all relating to that handgun, to include you can't even find the S/N. No LE agency (or ffl, or anyone else) would return the firearm to you in this scenario. The people that have the handgun are literally lied to on a daily base as a course of their job, and they don't know you to know whether you are honest or not. Chalk it up as a loss and a lesson learned, because that's what it is.

[StickySC]

They are model specific for the firearm in question. Receipt, an a social media post exists from 2012 where the frame and packaging is clearly visible. Not to mention the communication between the host where they notified "us" of a bag left. And the instructions on how to return my property legally through a FFL.

My state is recognized as a reciprocal carry state in Florida and me having the firearm in Florida was 100% legal.


I totally understand thus forum isn't going to be the solve all to get my property back, but has revealed a few nuances of different procedures and aspects involved. I do appreciate all the responses.

[JohnKSa]

They are model specific for the firearm in question. Receipt, an a social media post exists from 2012 where the frame and packaging is clearly visible.

You don't have much to lose by trying to convince them with that evidence. I'm not sure it will be effective, but you might as well try. If someone were trying to definitively prove what you need to prove with the evidence you have to me, I would not be 100% convinced.

You could have owned a different firearm of the same type back then. Or you might own another one of the same type now that you also owned when you bought the optic. It's not that uncommon for people to have multiples of the same type of firearm, or to sell or otherwise divest themselves of a firearm and then later acquire another one of the same type.

My state is recognized as a reciprocal carry state in Florida and me having the firearm in Florida was 100% legal.

Not really relevant to whether the gun was yours or not. And if you can't prove that it isn't stolen then I'm not really sure that the law will agree with you that having it in FL was legal.

I mean, I believe you that it wasn't stolen, but the law is a bit more hardnosed than that. Right now they believe it is stolen. You aren't going to make any headway until you can prove it is not.

Not to mention the communication between the host where they notified "us" of a bag left. And the instructions on how to return my property legally through a FFL.

That proves you left a bag, and presumably the gun. The problem is that when they ran the gun the serial number comes back stolen. Again, that puts you in the position of having to prove that the gun belongs to you legitimately and that means proving it isn't stolen.

I hope you can do it.

[dogtown tom]

4V50 Gary Bet there's a typo somewhere in the serial #.

This is my guess.
Manufacturers can't reuse serial numbers

5whiskey ....The gun entered stolen in NCIC had the same S/N, but it is not the same model of firearm as yours. Because the hit was confirmed off of make and S/N, it's believed that your pistol is the stolen pistol.

Model should not matter.

Federal law and ATF regs have prohibited manufacturers from using the same serial# on different models for decades. Ruger never has.

§ 478.92 Identification of firearms and armor piercing ammunition by licensed manufacturers and licensed importers.

(a)

(1) Firearms manufactured or imported by licensees. Except as otherwise provided in this section, licensed manufacturers and licensed importers of firearms must legibly identify each firearm they manufacture or import as follows:

(i) Serial number, name, place of business. By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or otherwise placed on the frame or receiver thereof, an individual serial number, in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed. The serial number must not duplicate any serial number placed by the licensee on any other firearm. The frame or receiver must also be marked with either: their name (or recognized abbreviation), and city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where they maintain their place of business; or their name (or recognized abbreviation) and the serial number beginning with their abbreviated Federal firearms license number, which is the first three and last five digits, as a prefix to the unique identification number, followed by a hyphen, e.g., “12345678-[unique identification number]”; and

[StickySC]

I did contact Ruger through email, then a follow up phone call, they didnt have any Duplicate serials in the P series.

i did take a few pictures and one of my older firearms 8s could look like 0s, or 6s. ect..

This firearm would be a great one to dual weild because of the design ruger made into it.

i started looking around at used ones, and they are going for around 2-300 suprisingly.

I received notice the day after taxday, so guess the goverment wanted a bonus. The firearm in question was definetly not stolen in 2014.

guess ill just have to wait to see what NC does. and start looking for another full frame HG.

It was a Ruger P89DC by the way,

[NJgunowner]

A lawyer would cost you more than the gun is worth. If you can't get it back on your own you are better off just buying a replacement.

I have very little sympathy for this and don't think you'll find too much on this forum as this was entirely self-inflicted. Owning a gun is a right, but we all assume a measure responsibility when we exercise that right. No one broke in and stole your gun, you left it behind. That level of negligence annoys me. It could have ended up in the hands of a criminal or child.