Unicorn Primers

[Nick_C_S]

I finally found the Unicorn primers – CCI #41’s. Maybe my luck or timing was just bad but I literally haven’t seen a #41 primer in a LGS since late 2012. At that time, I lived in California and was just getting back into shooting (and loading) – after a virtual hiatus of about 22 years (two or three range trips a year, compared to three or four range trips a month).

In late 2012, I remember going to my LGS (Sportsmen’s Warehouse) to restock a bunch of my supplies when I saw these odd white CCI boxes with the “no. 41” on them. At the time, I didn’t even own any rifles and had no idea what they were. Not that I gave it much thought, but kind of assumed that they were some sort of bargain version of the “good” primers – being in the generic white box and all. Like I said, I didn’t give it much thought. I knew they weren’t CCI 300’s or 500’s, and that’s all that mattered at the time.

Then the Sandy Hook / Obama shortage of 2013 hit. The shelves went empty for several years; at least, in northern California where I lived. But even after the shortage eased, primers were still a bit difficult to find. And I never saw any #41’s anywhere – not that I was in need of them. Then I got my AR’s and started load work ups using CCI 400’s. Before I got far with that, California put a virtual ban on “real” AR platform rifles – so I moved to Idaho .

Here in Idaho, I resumed my load workups when I learned about slam-fires. Now I am still using 400’s (almost out) and have yet to have a slam-fire (I always chamber in a safe direction – with any semi-auto). Anyway, I got a brick of CCI 450’s in the absence of #41's – believing that they have thicker primer cups than 400’s (have only loaded 12 of them, and zero shot).

I have a LGS here that’s a small independent outfit – nice folks. Every Thursday after closing, they stock all their new inventory and then post a video to FB showing all their new stuff that’ll be available the next morning. This last Thursday, they showed #41's as part of their new inventory – they had four bricks. The next morning, I showed up at opening time, intending to buy one brick. It didn’t matter to me if they have a purchase limit. If there’s only four on the shelf, I’m going to leave the rest for others. Well, when I got in, it turns out that there were four boxes hiding behind the four I saw in the video. I asked if it was okay to buy two and the clerk said yes. So, I got two bricks of Unicorn Primers.

I guess I’m going to do my work ups using my 450s’ to start (supposedly, the same load data is used). When I get close to where I want, I’ll do the switchover for the fine tuning. I noticed that the anvils are different in the #41’s – they’re more tapered, leaving less of a “valley” in the center. Definitely different looking. They’re also not nickel plated. Interesting.

So that’s my long, boring story. I was curious if others have had such a hard time finding #41’s specifically (I know primers in general are a beast to find). Or was I just unlucky, not as much as seeing one in over eleven years.

And oh, I know many want to ask how much were they: They were $115 a brick. I’m sure that’s a lot. I suppose somebody out there knows where they can be found for less. Frankly, I don’t care. This wasn’t about money.

[Shadow9mm]

they have been in my LGS for months now, $120 per 1000, but they have them.

I called CCI a while back and asked the primer question. For AR's they recommended #41s or or 450s. they said you may be able to get away with 400s. they said to take your gun to the range and while pointed down range chamber a round. then inspect the bird peck, the dent in the cartridge from the free floating firing pin contacting it. they said in many cases it was fine, but some guns just did not tolerate them. I used 400s for a long time, never had an issue.

call and ask, they have good tech support.

on a side note, they said 450 and 41 are identical, except for the anvil. they changed the angle to make the 41s less sensitive.

[Nick_C_S]

Thanks for the info. I never thought to inspect for the "bird peck." I guess the point is moot now as I only have 180 CCI 400 primers remaining - not counting a few hundred rounds of loaded ammo that I'll just shoot off at the range.

Most of the loaded ammo is just Hornady's 55gn FMJ BT w/ Cannelure - "range fodder," if you will - sorry, couldn't resist. And the remaining 180 primers will be loaded with this bullet.

Some of my CCI 400 ammo is with Sierra's 65gn SBT (#1395). This is my "SHTF" bullet of choice (I'm thinking only 50 to 100 yds). I'm considering pulling them, and reloading them hotter, and with #41's. Or not. We'll see.

[Metal god]

Make sure you crimp the bullet with 450’s and 41’s . Your es/sd will be much better . What powder are you using ?

[polska]

Small rifle and small pistol have been trickling in my area fairly regularly, but where are the large rifle primers. Every LGS in my area has not seen any in almost two years. I' beginning to think they have just stopped making them.

[Sevens]

I'm not sure if it was this forum or a different forum where I wandered in to an AR-15 discussion and my opinion is horribly UNPOPULAR. I continue to be astonished that the firing pin kisses the primer of every chambered round.

I'm not a gun designer, gunsmith or any manner of an engineer. But I think it ludicrous that this design does this.

Even still, I own three AR-15 rifles and rarely do I shoot 'em... they're fine, useful, I just don't enjoy them much and as much as I love handloading, I find it to be a headache to make ammo for AR's. (IMO it's a headache to reload bottle neck rifle for any semiautomatic because they love to eat and have a voracious appetite and lubing/FL sizing and especially trimming is tedious and, well, descriptive terms beyond tedious.

Back to my point... the firing pin is THE transfer device that makes this rifle go bang. That it's allowed, by design to bounce off the primer is not something I'll ever really agree with. The arguments usually aimed at me are "if you chamber it properly..." and certainly I do, I'll only ever strip rounds from the magazine of EVERY semiauto, but this won't change my position.

The argument used at me is often some version of "well like it or not, it works" and to me that is akin to "go ahead, look down the muzzle, it's totally okay just as long as you don't pull the trigger" when I think we can all agree that no, this is not okay.

I always lose this argument in any open forum but I'm okay with it.

[Metal god]

Yep it’s concerning for sure and was an issue once . The original M16 firing pin was much larger and heavier. They redesigned it to be smaller in diameter resulting in a significant reduction in weight. This seems to have resolved any issues and based on how many rounds are fired out of that platform every year with out issue . Id have to agree that as much as it seems like a problem, it is not . If you are concerned there are titanium firing pins that are even lighter you can install.

https://www.firingpins.com/ar-15-e-s...ium-firing-pin

https://ironcityrifleworks.com/produ...um-firing-pins

[ghbucky]

Why hijack a thread about primers to talk about the AR platform?

[Metal god]

I thought he talked about loading for the AR … maybe I just assumed cus of the 41’s

[jetinteriorguy]

Originally Posted by Metal god

I thought he talked about loading for the AR … maybe I just assumed cus of the 41’s

Heck, I thought we were going to learn how to prime unicorns.

[Nick_C_S]

Sevens can hijack my thread. That's okay. I've probably done the same with his a time or two And yes, this discussion is about AR platform ammo/guns. I guess I'm agnostic regarding your concern with the firing pin "kiss." I didn't know and I haven't given it much thought as of yet. Not sure I will - I'll likely devote few brain cells on it, assuming people smarter than me designed these things.

As for handloading for the AR; I like it thus far. Yes, it's much more work and I do everything on my vintage '84 RCBS single stage (works as good as the day it was made). At some point, I don't expect to shoot my AR's a lot. Right now, I'm doing work ups so this will be a busy summer (if it ever gets here - it snowed today) with the AR's.

Metal god: Thanks for the advice on the crimp. So far, I've only tested 5 rounds and my SD was 118 (only a 5-round sample, but still). They were not crimped. Sierra 65 SBT; 24.0gn AA2230.

I have since loaded 5 rounds each at 24.0 and 24.2 grains. I gave these a slight collet crimp. And yes, my reason for crimping was due to the 118 SD. My goal is to just get this bullet shooting accurately at 50 yards (using AA2230) and to have proper feeding/cycling. I'm not asking much.

My only other project is to work up some Hornady 75gn BTHP's, using AA2495. These, I'll just use CCI 450's and will eventually crimp them. I haven't yet - in case I need to pull them. SD's haven't been out of line, despite the lack of crimp. In fact, I've got SD's of 11 in a couple examples (small sample size, so it's meaningless). My eyebrow-raiser with this loading is the fact that they're running some 200 f/s less than what the Hornaday manual expects. No concern at this point - lots of testing still needs to be done. BTW, I'm only playing with these bullets because my AR's have a 1:7 twist, so I figured I'd put that high twist rate to work - just for fun.

[Metal god]

118 :-@ …. Thats a lot . I did a duplicate work up a few years back . It was something like 23gr through 26.5gr of H-335 in increments of .5gr pushing Hornady 55g FMJ-BT . The only difference was one group used CCI # 400 and the other used #450 . The 400’s had significantly better ES/SD . None of the loads were crimped.

I load all my rifle rounds on a single stage as well , nothing wrong with that ;-)

Next time you’re at the range lock your bolt back . Insert a mag with at lesst one round then push the bolt release and let the bolt fly home loading a round . Do not fire that round , instead eject that round and look at the primer . You will be surprised at what you see ! If you have a safe place to do it you can do that at home .

[Sevens]

Why hijack a thread about primers to talk about the AR platform?

Shhhh! Don't tell the playground lady -but- the OP is speaking quite specifically about CCI 41 primers that are offered as "milspec" with a harder cup, apparently a re-designed anvil to avoid possible unintended discharge for rifles with a (believe it) design where the firing pin kisses the primer of each and every loaded round.

[Nick_C_S]

If you have a safe place to do it (chamber a round) you can do that at home.

Heh, no such luck. #41 primers or not, the only way I'll chamber an AR at my home is if an angry mob is marching down my street.

I guess I should muster enough curiosity regarding the primer kiss to do this test some day. We'll see.

Looks like the weather won't cooperate until about six days from now. I've got lots of stuff to chrono:

75gn BTHP's
65gn SBT's

Four different 44 Mag loads for my Marlin rifle - that's an accuracy test, not a chrono.

357 Mag 165gn gas check SWC's - in 39 years, I've never loaded a gas check bullet. Starting a work up using AA#7.

And some 38 Spl 158 LSWC's, .357" swaged. Going to chrono and check for leading. The last go-'round of these was very promising - just a whisper of leading after 50 rounds. Moving up .2 grains (W231, from 3.6 to 3.8).

So yeah, this is going to be a busy summer - if it ever gets here.

Someday, I might actually go to the range just to shoot a gun or two and have fun. I think somewhere I heard that's what is was supposed to be all about .

[HiBC]

If you have a Hornady manual find the page specific to AR-15 Match loads for the 75 gr bullet

Take a look at RE-15. It works good with that bullet.

[jetinteriorguy]

Originally Posted by HiBC

If you have a Hornady manual find the page specific to AR-15 Match loads for the 75 gr bullet

Take a look at RE-15. It works good with that bullet.

+1 on this.

[ghbucky]

and voila!

https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/prod...itary-primers/

[Nick_C_S]

and voila!

I did not know that Winchester made a mil-spec specific small rifle primer; much less, call it a "#41." I guess that "#41" must mean something other than just some random name that CCI gave it.

Oddly enough, I poked my head into my LGS where I bought my #41's, and the remaining six boxes are still un-sold. I guess I didn't need to be in such a hurry afterall. I'm sure the price tag factors in.

[Nick_C_S]

If you have a Hornady manual find the page specific to AR-15 Match loads for the 75 gr bullet.

I do. Looking at Hornady Tenth, it's on page 172. (I also have the 9th - pg 156)

Take a look at RE-15. It works good with that bullet.

Yes, I see that. I bought AA 2495 because it's a single-base propellant. For reasons unknown, I have a fascination with single-based propellants. Although, I think I'm over it now . Anyway, I do plan on finishing my work up and exhausting this # of 2495. I have it. I'll use it. But after that, I will likely try something else - perhaps RE-15. Is RE-15 an Alliant product?

Side question, if anybody knows: The specified application for Hornady's 75gn BTHP is for target shooting. If it's just for target, why is it a hollow point?

[Sevens]

The hollow point of a target rifle bullet isn't the goal, it's just a side-result of the design where the jacket is formed around the base and taken up toward the tip. I think. Or something very near that. Ha!

We think of hollow point as an expanding pistol bullet but in a bottle neck, high velocity rifle round, it's just a by-product of the design of that particular bullet. If we want expansion or eruption in a rifle bullet, we usually see some kind of a tip and a thin jacket that comes apart when the tip is driven in to it.

[HiBC]

A near perfect bullet base is critical to accuracy. Open base or open point,take your pick. A closed base jacket is easier for accuracy.

The traditional lead tip hunting bullet is good,and they had the hunting hollow points. But for a sleeker ,higher ballistic coefficient bullet, the pointiest open point practical to produce brings us the Open Tip Match or Hollow Point Boat Tail Match.

Now we have plastic tips.

Any bullet will produce trauma. Match bullets are engineered for accuracy and ballistics. Hunting bullets prioritize controlled expansion.

[Unclenick]

A couple of points.

I've looked before to find information about why floating firing pins are used in military rifles, but not yet run into an authoritative source. The simplest explanation may be just that bolt action military rifles could be made without them, so why add a part that can make the firing pin fly away during field stripping of the bolt? But perhaps there's an old military study somewhere that found firing pin return springs caused trouble during the testing of rifles that had them. I just don't know.

As far as primer strength goes, it is often reported that, as compared to standard rifle primers, magnum primers increase velocity variation when the loading density is high but reduce it when the loading density is low. Where the line is will depend on case capacity, powder charge, and bullet weight, so you will just have to try it and see. Meanwhile, if you can find any, the Federal GM205MAR primer is a standard SRP strength (same as their GM205M) primer that they adjusted to match the military sensitivity level by thickening the primer cup. So there is a way to get mil spec primer ignition sensitivity and not have to use a magnum priming charge. But you have to find the Federal AR primers first.

[mkl]

I may be wrong here, but I seem to remember running across a discussion or ad that offered a spring return to go around the ar15 firing pin so as to prevent the "kissing" of the primer.

Don't have time right now to research but if such a thing does exist, it could be useful as a problem solver for softer primers.

[Unclenick]

It also occurred to me a firing pin return spring would slow the maximum cyclic rate for full-auto weapons, and that might be another consideration, though it wouldn't explain the Garand. The 1911 has a firing pin return spring, of course, so it's not like the military is dead set against them, but in that gun, the firing pin has to be retracted to keep the drop of the chamber during unlocking from hanging the case up on the firing pin tip.

[HiBC]

The Armalite version of an AR-10 has a firing pin return spring.

Before folks turn this into a complaint session about that darn AR-15/M-16

has anyone seen the "peck mark" on the primer of an M1-Garand? An M1A /M-14? Has anyone ever heard of a slam fire with a Garand?

Is this a new phenomena? Or is it the very reason why there are the mil spec primers?

OK,its scarce times for primers. Drat!! The rifle did not change. There are still correct primers for the job and primers that are risky,just like 5 years ago.