AR Pistol Question

[TailGator]

There was an incident at my granddaughter's school yesterday.
A person was seen walking towards the school with an AR type pistol. (Media referred to it as a rifle, but pictures indicate otherwise.)
There was an impressive LE response, the school was locked down, the guy apprehended, and the firearm secured.

Comments were made on the LEA Facebook post about the incident that the firearm was inoperable, based on the photograph posted.
My question, to those who know more about these types of firearms than me (a large majority of the folks here): Is there something in this image that makes you think the pistol is inoperable? If so, what?

[DubC-Hicks]

There's no buffer tube. You'd perhaps get one shot off, then your day would likely be ruined when the BCG flew back at mach 1.

[Doc Intrepid]

There is also no magazine.

Without rounds the item is only a club.

[HiBC]

Agreed,I don't see a buffer tube. It would be non-functional.

As far as I know,Florida is NOT open carry unless you are fishing or hunting.
If you get seen approaching a school, odds are the Police will show up. I cannot fault the Police or the caller.
At the minimum,Our Nimrod is guilty of poor judgement.

If I'm writing this story (which may be fiction) The guy had no ill intent. He may have been walking to an acquaintance who had AR-15 tools to work on it.
But I don't know that.

No one was shot. Thats good. Our Nimrod seems to be getting educated. That may be good.
My semi-calibrated eyeball tells me it may be a 16 in barrel. If completed with a buffer tube and stock,it would then be a carbine rather than a handgun.

[ballardw]

Extar early brand AR-style pistols do not have buffer tubes because they use a gas piston instead of direct gas impingement system for operating. Pictures on Joe Bob Outfitters website as the maker seems to have discontinued them: https://www.joeboboutfitters.com/EXT...s-s/173320.htm

The posted picture isn't quite clear enough in the right area to be sure that it is not a gas piston operating system.

[MTT TL]

Not sure about "no magazine", there is something sticking out of the mag well. There are some really short magazines out there. But no tube means no way for the bolt to cycle.

[44 AMP]

there is no magazine in the weapon in the picture. You are looking at a slight angle and seeing the other side of the empty mag well.

IF the pistol has the gas piston system (and not the direct impingement system of the regular AR), then the return spring would be under the forward handguard.

The question is, if that is the case, if there is enough clearance behind the bolt carrier for the gun to operate. It looks like there is just enough, but we can't tell for certain from that picture.

IF you assume the gun uses the regular AR system, the lack of a buffer tube would make it a essentially inoperable, other than as a one shot deal. IF its gas piston operated (something the average cop would be unlikely to know about) then it could be fully funtional.

[stagpanther]

Fascinating picture; normally the buffer tube plate is needed in order to hold in springs and detente pins. Even a piston operated AR is going to need some kind retention device on the rear of the lower--besides that looking at the narrow handguard and limited clearance between it and the barrel I seriously doubt this is piston-operated.

There is something inserted into the mag well. That's a funny one--it looks like a magwell adapter of some sort to me to take a different style magazine possibly. EDIT--on second thought that probably is a magazine, maybe has the magazine bottom plate missing.

As long as were doing on-line gunsmith jeopardy, I have one of two guesses as to what is going on here. Maybe Bubbaboy figured he could bring in an "inert" AR to school for his class presentation on "what I did cool over the weekend." OR--and this one is maybe a reach--this might possibly be a homegrown effort at making a single-action hand-cycled pistol with no gas system at all.

[Aguila Blanca]

There is nothing in the magazine well. As 44 AMP commented, it's the perspective -- we're viewing it from "below" so we can see both sides of the mag well.

[stagpanther]

That's right and I was incorrect--the line through the lower receiver looked like the flare at the bottom of a well. It still is odd looking--almost like a chunk was blown off the well in front of the trigger guard. This one is a real brain twister and I sure hope we hear more on what this actually is.

[DubC-Hicks]

I guess I'm not seeing what others are seeing with the magwell. Looks perfectly fine, with nothing in it, and the reflection shows that as well.

As far as the bufferless piston systems and whatnot mentioned , they still require something at the back of the lower to hold it all in and most wouldn't fit under that rail. And based on the rear takedown pin being halfway out, I'd assume there's no spring and detent holding it in. Meaning no end plate back there.

[TailGator]

Re buffer tube: Yes, it would seem that its absence is the reason that the folks responding to the police department's post reached the conclusion that the gun was inoperable. I confess that I was ignorant of the function of ARs, but ignorance is curable, and the input here supplemented by additional reading has brought my treatment along.

Re magazine: The picture I posted was from the LEA that made the arrest and recovered the firearm. That and the fact that the picture appears to be taken on the hood of a car led me to assume that a LEO had cleared the firearm. That is my assumption though; nothing has been specifically said about the gun being loaded when the guy was carrying it, and if he didn't know he needed a buffer tube, perhaps he was carrying it without a magazine, too.

Re offender's intent: It isn't clear. Reading between the lines a little, I think he was seen by a driver making a delivery to the back of a supermarket. The driver called it in because the school was just a little further behind the supermarket, and the guy was headed that way. To be clear, it is a preschool, but a fairly good sized campus comparable in size to a small elementary school. It is affiliated with some charter schools in the area. It is not one of the converted houses that are common around here as day care. The only charge that has been made public is carrying a firearm within 1000 feet of a school. HiBC is correct that open carry is not currently legal in Florida except for hunting and fishing.

Re the veracity of the report: Google "West Melbourne Florida lockdown" and you can find news coverage. My daughter was headed to drop off that morning, saw a very large police presence, called the school real quick, and kept moving. Nothing she saw was inconsistent with the news reports. Unfortunately, there were parents getting out of their cars and standing around, at a time before the guy was detained, which was probably not the best idea in that situation.

Local rumor has it that the three LEAs that responded (the municipality in which the school is located, an adjacent municipality, and the county sheriff department) has more pizza, sandwich platters, and cookies than they can hope to consume in the foreseeable future.

Thanks for the helpful info, and the stimulus to learn more about the function of ARs.

[9x19]

Most .22LR uppers do not require a buffer tube, but that bolt looks like a center-fire bolt. The rear take-down pin is sticking out slightly, probably due to the fact the detent and spring are gone, since there is no plate to secure them.

[44 AMP]

In the regular rifle the rear takedown pin detent & spring are held in by the buttstock. In collapsible stock guns there is a plate installed to take the place of the stock retaining the detent & spring.

We don't have a clear picture of the rear of the gun in question. I can't SEE any plate but that doesn't mean there isn't something, only that I can't see it due to the angle of the picture.

The rear takedown pin protruding slightly could be the result of no tension on it (in which case it could also fall completely out) OR it could be the result of some one handling the gun prior to the picture being taken. Can't tell from the picture alone. The amount the pin is standing proud looks to be about what you'd get if someone pushed the other end flush with the lower.

Without proper spring tension on the pin, it would move easily.

[RickB]

Piston ARs require a non-standard upper receiver to accommodate the mechanism, usually a half-inch or so taller, and though the angle of the pic might be obscuring the true shape of the upper receiver and handguard, it looks like a standard gas impingement gun which would require a buffer tube.

Some guns use two small-diameter springs in the receiver, AR18-style, in place of the buffer tube and spring, but that also requires a non-standard receiver.

The magwell appears to have an attachment, perhaps to adapt it to use pistol magazines, and that would sort of explain it being ID'd as a pistol.

The 16" barrel indicates it's a stockless rifle, regardless of the chambering, which would be illegal if shorter than 26" in overall length (which it would be; the combined length of the receiver and barrel would be about 24").

[stagpanther]

I have a piston running on standard receiver--I think SA makes it. The block itself has trouble fitting within standard or narrow handguards.

[HiBC]

I doubt he had ill intentions with a non functional gun. Regardless of open carry laws, if the People see a man carrying an AR-15 in the vicinity of schools,"See something,say something" kicks in.

Case it,box it, or otherwise package it. He lacked good judgement.

Not everyone has a vehicle. Some people walk. There are reasonable scenarios where the guy is not a threat. Example: He is building the rifle, as many of us have done. He needs more parts,or he lacks tools,or he does not understand something.
So he is walking to a gunshop , gunsmith, or a friend who has tools.

He might be just a guy not so different than us. The person who called in? Reasonable person/good citizen.

The LEO s responding? They have to. Just doing their job.

I recall being a middle school kid walking from home to the gunsmith downtown carrying my old Stevens side by side because it had a problem.

Nobody paid me any attention. I had no trouble. Those same years, I would pedal my bicycle to the County Rifle Range with a ,22 slung across my back.

No one ever stopped me. I was part of "normal" back then.

This incident is probably much ado about pretty much nothing.

But we do have to look out for the kids.

[RickB]

I have a piston running on standard receiver--I think SA makes it. The block itself has trouble fitting within standard or narrow handguards.

There are piston uppers that are externally the same as the original gas impingement models, it's just a market that I don't pay much attention to.
Regardless, the pictured gun is not a pistol.

[44 AMP]

Regardless, the pictured gun is not a pistol.

And, tis not a pistol, because....?????

There is no buttstock. Despite the long (for a pistol) barrel, MANY PEOPLE call firearms without buttstocks, "pistols".

According to the OP, this time, the media called it a rifle. Are they correct, this time? They don't have a good record of using firearm terms accurately.

Neither do individual LEOs or LEO spokesmen.

It appears to be a rifle without a buttstock. It could, possibly, legally be something else. IT may not be functional. Unless/until competent, recognized authority examines it and makes a determination, all we've got is one photograph and a LOT of guessing.

[RickB]

Shouldn't have said "regardless"; yes, it could be a pistol with a 16" barrel, but among the possibilities, that seems among the less likely.
I read the media called it a pistol, and based on the picture, I'd say the only way it's likely a pistol, is if the lower receiver is marked as such, or it's chambered for a pistol cartridge.
Seems much more likely to be a rifle missing the buffer tube and stock.

[JohnKSa]

I doubt he had ill intentions with a non functional gun.

People commit armed robberies with toy guns on a fairly regular basis.

[stagpanther]

Maybe just a coincidence (see other thread on braces)--but all of a sudden my inbox has been receiving lots of advertisements for heavily discounted AR pistols. Some of those are being sold without any attachments to the rear of the receiver.

[HiBC]

People commit armed robberies with toy guns on a fairly regular basis.

OK. I won't argue with that.

It remains a fact that I DOUBT he had ill intent. ( "I Doubt" is the fact)

He may well have a problem with violating carry law unless he was carrying a fishing pole.

I'm not going to imagine him another "Sandy Hook Killer" without some probable cause. I'm keeping my blood pressure under control.

I CAN understand the OP looking for info and being concerned. (Child in school)

Its not unusual for me to transport a gun project. IMO, amongst my gun circle, its good to consolidate the collection of tools and spares at one location. Your house,my house,doesn't matter. The roll pin punches,fixtures,barrel nut wrenches, vise jaws, headspace gauges,etc. All collocated.
I own many of the tools and parts but they are in a toolbox at someone elses house. I have a motor vehicle and I transport discretely.

I can relate enough that I don't project "mass murderer" on some indiscrete dilrod walking his AR project someplace. We can walk to our local gunsmith.

A few years back the fad was "Open Carry Activists' shopping for Oreos at Walmart carrying AK;s and AR's,or going to breakfast at the local cafe armed with long guns or just taking a road walk or to Little League Games.
These efforts had quite a bit of support here on TFL. (Not Mine)

While I could see the point of "normalizing" carry, I do not support stirring the citizens to call for more laws. IMO,low key is good.

There may be more to this story, but with what we have,,, I'd say the guy needs a lecture from the Cops ...."tuneup" If he checks out "not crazy" give him his AR back. "Go,and sin no more"

[stagpanther]

Leaving out the arguments of carry etc--anything involving firearms in the public is always going to be volatile--especially when it involves schools and other places of public gatherings in urban areas.

You can even be "swatted" just by mentioning firearms in public in a way that can be misinterpreted as a threat (easy to do when the listener rearranges and inserts a few words they thought you said)--like using the word "bomb" at an airport. It has happened to me, even when I had no firearms at all in my possession or at my residence. When 7 officers stake your home home out and one of them has a 40 semi-auto pointing directly between your eyes mere inches away from your head while you watch his finger nervously twitch on the trigger--you'll learn how easy it is to get yourself tagged by just a little creative interpretation by an ignorant/anxious public.

[TailGator]

According to the OP, this time, the media called it a rifle.

I read the media called it a pistol

The original reports in the media referred to the police FB page in calling it a rifle. I (OP) referred to it as a pistol because of the lack of a buttstock. Some here seem to be leaning towards classifying it as an AOW. I'm not well versed enough in the intricacies of the definitions to be a mediator.

The only follow up we have had was my daughter, the little girl's mother, calling the lieutenant in charge of the case. He told my daughter that they apprehended the guy on the other side of the school than where he was originally seen, going in a direction away from the school in a residential neighborhood. He has been uncooperative, and the lieutenant implied that mental illness was involved. They have as yet not determined who owns the gun or how this guy acquired it. So it doesn't look like any of our questions, about either hardware or intent, are likely to be answered anytime soon.

I do appreciate the input I got here. I knew y'all would help me out.