Reconciling Different and Disparate Loading Information

[robhic]

I just loaded some 90gn "Lehigh Defense" rounds (the ones shaped like a star or cross bullet). A friend wanted to try them (he's a major feral pig hunter) so I told him if he got the bullets and gave me his 9mm Ruger for doing the "plunk test" I'd give 'em a try.

Got the bullets and I have 9.5 lbs of W231 so I figured I'd use that. Checked my Lyman manual, Hodgdon/Winchester online, one of those load books specifically for a certain caliber and another online source. Data for powder was fairly disparate!

Where one showed starting at 5.1gn another showed 5.1gn as the max load. Another was 4.1gn to start and as that seemed reasonable, I loaded 5 each at 4.1 and 4.2 gr for him to try. He hasn't had chance to try them but I told him to let me know how they worked and I'd either go up a tenth of a grain or two or go down as needed. But this is the first time I've had this issue.

My sources have usually agreed within a 10th of a grain or two so it wasn't such a big deal. But one saying start at 5.1 and another saying not to exceed 5.1 was a fairly large difference.

Those star-shaped Lehigh bullets are solid copper so I used 90gn FMJ data. I figured if I stayed on the low side to start, FMJ would be about right. But what's the best way to reconcile a load when the sources are that far out of agreement? I thought reducing by 10% would still be too hot so settled for the lowest of all. Now I need my boy to go find some feral pigs!

[Aguila Blanca]

IMHO, unless you have multiple recipes that include the specific bullet, the specific powder, the specific primer, and the same C.O.A.L. that you are using, you don't have "disparate" loading information -- you have no loading information at all. Since the bullets you used are solid copper and you said you used data for FMJ bullets, I have to assume that you do not have load data for the specific bullet.

"FMJ" refers to a lead bullet with a thin brass or copper jacket. Lead is denser than copper. Therefore, we can conclude that if two bullets have the same diameter (which they must if they are the same caliber) and the same weight, the copper bullet must be longer. If loaded to the same C.O.A.L., the copper bullet will be seated deeper, leaving less case volume for the powder and increasing the pressure if the same powder charge is used.

[74A95]

As white eagle notes, don't use data for regular bullets for the Lehigh bullets. Lehigh has their own data. Use that for their bullets.

https://www.lehighdefense.com/lehigh...d-data-library

[Sevens]

There are a lot of safe boundaries in handloading and from my perspective and three decades, most of what we do isn’t nearly as dangerous or scary as so many preach and scream.

With that said, things change a lot when you are not talking lead or jacketed bullets. These solid copper bullets bring a few things to the table that upset the apple cart. First is that they are light for caliber which means they must be longer when they try to make up the weight. Loaded properly for a handgun, this means they eat up more internal combustion space and that is a straight directive to increase pressure.

They also offer a different resistance to being pushed down a bore which changes things also.

I say all that to suggest that when using lead and jacketed, finding the sweet, right and safe spot is a LOT easier and not nearly so dangerous and scary. But to do the same with monolithic solid copper slugs is a different game altogether.

I would absolutely go with the bullet manufacturer’s recommendation over and above all others.

[44 AMP]

90gr all copper 9mm Luger for feral hogs???

I do hope you friend is a very good shot!

[T. O'Heir]

"...the ones shaped like..." Those are a marketing gimmick.
Lehigh doesn't actually say if they're jacketed or exactly what they are. If they are solids, you do not use jacketed data for 'em. Solid copper is not as dense as a lead cored bullet.
LeHigh's site doesn't show Win 231 for 9mm. Call 'em and ask.
One does not 'Reconcile' data. All data in manuals reflect the exactly load using the exact components and conditions on the day of the test only.

[robhic]

The Lehigh data (which I didn't know about, thanks) says 4.8gn 1.105" OAL to start. I used FMJ data for a 90gn bullet: 4.1/4.2gn 1.106" OAL. The Lehigh is 90gn so the bullets are the same weight and bearing surface material. Should that be changed/reduced? He's shooting pigs and not hogs (for which I think he uses a rifle) on marsh land he owns. He hasn't tried them yet. Should I get them back and change anything? Thanks for the info!

[Aguila Blanca]

Well, at least you didn't over-charge them, so he's not likely to blow up his pistol.

Since your load is well below that specified by the bullet manufacturer, my question would be whether or not they'll expand. I would suggest trying out a couple into a gallon jug of water, or a box filled with very wet newspaper.

[robhic]

Well, at least you didn't over-charge them, so he's not likely to blow up his pistol.

Since your load is well below that specified by the bullet manufacturer, my question would be whether or not they'll expand.

I purposely started low. The OAL between the two bullets is pretty close (.001") and since the weight is the same I expected the FMJ data to be close.

Not sure about expansion. I watched some YouTube videos and penetration (through sheet metal, 3/8" plywood and sheetrock) and into 2 blocks of ballistic gel. Penetration seems to be main goal. These rounds perform very well. I think a small-ish pig will not pose a problem.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Since your load is well below that specified by the bullet manufacturer, my question would be whether or not they'll expand.

The only 90 grain Lehigh 9mm bullets I see on their website are the xtreme defense. And the OP stated they are 'star-shaped'.

That means they will never expand. They are not designed to do so.

You're not familiar with their bullets, are you?

[big al hunter]

The Lehigh is 90gn so the bullets are the same weight and bearing surface material. Should that be changed/reduced?

The Lehigh bullets are the same weight as the FMJ you selected data for. But the construction makes a huge difference. The lead inside the FMJ will move inside the jacket and allow displacement for the rifling easier than copper solids. Copper solids are longer than jacketed for the same weight, so... no they do not have the same bearing surface. Since you opted for a load that is somewhere around 15 percent below max for the Lehigh bullets it should be ok. I think you got pretty lucky with that.

Loading for someone else's gun is risky business when you are the one shooting the test loads and looking for signs of pressure. Letting him shoot them without you there to see if there are issues is putting you at a very high risk. If anything happens to his gun or himself, he will likely blame you. As you increase the charges, you should be there with him to monitor progress. It might be better to coach your friend in loading his own ammo on your press. More of the responsibility will be on him. I wouldn't load anything for someone else at max load, just to be able to say it was not the max charge shown in the data.

I only load for my family. But I will teach anyone how to load their own.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by 74A95

You're not familiar with their bullets, are you?

Nope.

[robhic]

The Lehigh bullets are the same weight as the FMJ you selected data for. But the construction makes a huge difference. The lead inside the FMJ will move inside the jacket and allow displacement for the rifling easier than copper solids. Copper solids are longer than jacketed for the same weight, so... no they do not have the same bearing surface. Since you opted for a load that is somewhere around 15 percent below max for the Lehigh bullets it should be ok. I think you got pretty lucky with that.

This all new (and very technical!) to me. The FMJ bullet I used to load the Lehigh bullet was pretty much the same length and the shank portion about even for the Lehigh and the FMJ bullet I used for comparison. I also purposely loaded at the start/low end to begin with. Using his barrel and the lowest powder load made me mostly confident this would not lead to problems.

As far as teaching him to load his own, he doesn't really have the time nor the interest. Now that I have the Lehigh specific info I've decided to get the rounds I made back, pull the bullets and reload from scratch using their data. That should remove any guesswork and thanks to '74A95' for pointing me to the Lehigh site. Thanks to all for the info!

[std7mag]

With the Lehiegh bullets not expanding, they will probably zip right through a pig.
Nasty wound channel from what i've seen. But your gonna want to really watch whats on the other side of the pig!

[74A95]

It depends on which bullet. The XD act like hollow points with moderate penetration and the XP act like FMJ with deep penetration.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by robhic

This all new (and very technical!) to me. The FMJ bullet I used to load the Lehigh bullet was pretty much the same length and the shank portion about even for the Lehigh and the FMJ bullet I used for comparison.

What's your idea of "pretty much" the same length? Did you measure with a caliper, or just use the Mark III Mod 2A calibrated eyeball?

The specific gravity of copper is 8.89. The specific gravity of lead is 11.35. Since lead is 28 percent denser than copper, a copper projectile of the same weight, same diameter, and same general profile has to be longer than a lead projectile. It cannot be the same length, or even nearly the same length.

[robhic]

What's your idea of "pretty much" the same length? Did you measure with a caliper, or just use the Mark III Mod 2A calibrated eyeball?

The specific gravity of copper is 8.89. The specific gravity of lead is 11.35. Since lead is 28 percent denser than copper, a copper projectile of the same weight, same diameter, and same general profile has to be longer than a lead projectile. It cannot be the same length, or even nearly the same length.

I looked at two 90gn bullets - one Lehigh one a FMJ I had. They weren't exactly the same size, I'll admit, but very close (no calipers). Hence the "pretty much" statement. Not loading too hot nor for competition accuracy made me feel that a copper to copper bullet at low/start weight and using his barrel for 'plunking' and OAL would be OK. Were they perfect? No, but for this purpose I figured close enough.

I didn't and never have taken specific gravity and/or other (to me) very technical specs into account.That's why I've decided to get them back and start all over using the Lehigh data. That should take care of this.

[robhic]

With the Lehiegh bullets not expanding, they will probably zip right through a pig.Nasty wound channel from what i've seen. But your gonna want to really watch whats on the other side of the pig!

He owns or leases some marsh property outside of "civilization" for hunting and fishing use. Only thing behind the pig would either be marsh or another (unlucky) pig.

[Sevens]

9mm is one of the smallest cases that is in normal, popular use that is also running high pressure (35k psi max) so tiny little differences in internal space (ahem, the space that a LONGER bullet occupies) make a much larger difference in pressure than it would in a lower pressure round (say... .45 ACP) or a round with larger case capacity (.357 Magnum perhaps) or a cartridge that is both larger in space AND lower in pressure (.38 Special.)

Looking at a 9mm slug and assuming it seems to appear nearly the same size as some other slug is not a very good or very safe approach to handloading.

I’m not trying to condemn — I’m trying to share tips to promote safe and enjoyable handloading.

[robhic]

9mm is one of the smallest cases that is in normal, popular use that is also running high pressure (35k psi max) so tiny little differences in internal space (ahem, the space that a LONGER bullet occupies) make a much larger difference in pressure than it would in a lower pressure round (say... .45 ACP) or a round with larger case capacity (.357 Magnum perhaps) or a cartridge that is both larger in space AND lower in pressure (.38 Special.)

Looking at a 9mm slug and assuming it seems to appear nearly the same size as some other slug is not a very good or very safe approach to handloading.

I’m not trying to condemn — I’m trying to share tips to promote safe and enjoyable handloading.

I hear what you're saying and appreciate the info. I DO know (unfortunately) how as little as .001gn can make a noticeable difference.

In this case, as stated, a 90gn all copper bullet and a 90gn FMJ at lowest load and made using the barrel to get OAL just seemed close enough to be alright without problems. I would not have continued with larger charge weight. I'm gonna use Lehigh's own specs (now that I have them) to try again. Thanks for the input.

[Aguila Blanca]

Remember that any (and all) published load specifications are properly valid only for the exact components, fired through the test gun or barrel, at the temperature and humidity prevailing at the time of the test.

Do minor variations from any of those parameters really matter? "Probably" not, but they may. This is why we are always advised to start at the starting load and test a few rounds, then work up in charge weight while watching for signs of problems. Starting with Lehigh's own data for Lehigh bullets is a good idea, but IMHO you shouldn't just load up a couple of hundred of them and hand them to your friend without first testing a couple of them in the gun or guns in which they will be used.

[jmhyer]

Based on what you've said...and the data on Lehigh's website, I would say you are probably loading a little light. I doubt the load is light enough to cause a squib...especially since the projectile material is likely much less expansile than lead. My main concern would be that the load (being lightly charged) might not cycle the action...in which case, I would go on up to the Lehigh-recommended starting load and COL and go from there.

I share others' concern that you probably should load and test fire them yourself, rather than load them and send you buddy off to test them without you.

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by robhic

The FMJ bullet I used to load the Lehigh bullet was pretty much the same length and the shank portion about even for the Lehigh and the FMJ bullet I used for comparison.

You seem have made in incorrect assumption that the ungrooved solid copper and an FMJ will behave similarly in the gun because the coefficient of friction between steel and copper will be the same. The FMJ is actually much more malleable. If you place one on an anvil and smack it hard with a hammer, it will deform a lot. Do the same with the solid and it will deform a lot less. The same thing applies when you force the bullet through the throat of the barrel. The lands have a much easier time squeezing the FMJ down to "engrave" it with rifling marks. It takes more force to engrave the solid. It is this force, and not copper-on-steel friction that does the most to determine how high pressure gets. By its greater resistance to being engraved, the solid has to have more pressure behind it before it is pushed into the bore. When you build more pressure while the bullet is still mostly in the case, the powder burns faster and the bullet is subsequently not as far down the barrel when the pressure peaks, and therefore it peaks in a smaller space, raising the pressure value over what you get when the bullet is easier to push into the bore.

Your loads will probably shoot, but have your friend be careful with them that a bullet doesn't get stuck in the bore. It is unlikely, but if he doesn't see a hole in paper, he should check the bore before firing again, as shooting a bullet into a stuck bullet will likely break the gun and maybe the shooter.

[robhic]

Thanks for the added information/explanation, Uncle Nick. I must say that this whole exercise had been a learning experience for me. Thanks to all!!!

[Sevens]

When we have discussions of this nature... there are countless numbers of us who all get the opportunity to learn, certainly including folks that aren’t even posting .

I still believe that TFL Forums host the finest handloading discussions on the web.