Semiwadcutter Lengths Keep Wandering

Swifty Morgan · September 12, 2020, 04:48 PM

I'm making 9mm semiwadcutters. I am not able to jam the bullets into the casings deeply enough to cover the lube grooves because they are very long. Wax is accumulating on the crimping die very quickly, and I have to clean the cartridges after they're finished. I think I'm all done with semiwadcutters. Super annoying to work with.

I have another issue. I keep getting long cartridges. I set the seating die carefully for 1.040", and after a while, I start getting cartridges up to 1.060" long. Using firm, uniform pressure on the handle doesn't help. The die is not moving, so that isn't the problem.

Does anyone have any ideas?

nhyrum · September 12, 2020, 04:51 PM

You might look into using powdercoating to solve the grease issue.

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Swifty Morgan · September 12, 2020, 05:03 PM

I would never have bought these things uncoated had I known what a pain they were. I have used lots of Oregon Trails bullets with no problems, but they seat so the grooves are covered.

nhyrum · September 12, 2020, 05:23 PM

Ah I thought you were casting them yourself.

Powdercoating is relatively cheap to do, should you decide to give it a go. You usually have to buy a whole pound, which goes a LONG... LONG... LOOOOOOONG way(I bet a tablespoon would do 1000 of my 350 grain 452 bullets). But a pound is about 10 bucks. Parchment paper, an oven and an old yogurt container are all that's needed after that.

As for them growing after setting your dies. It could be the seating plug is backing out, that's usually where I run into issues, I don't like to have my dies cranked down. I like to be able to undo them by hand, but it's a fine line between that and coming loose (at least for things other than the die body) I don't really think that's the issue, but putting a witness mark on things and watching it just to doubly triple check that they are not in fact moving could be helpful.

You might want to measure at least a hand full of bullets to make sure they're not where the extra length is coming from (unlikely, if that were the case the oal would probably stay the same and you'd just have even more bullet stuffed in the case)

Really though, to me, the only thing that makes sense as to why they are "growing" is that something in the die set is coming undone. Everything else I can think of you wouldn't get much variation, or they'd get shorter, not longer

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Swifty Morgan · September 12, 2020, 05:41 PM

I can't figure out what's happening. The dies are tight.

jpg366 · September 13, 2020, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swifty Morgan

I can't figure out what's happening. The dies are tight.

Compression of air in the case. Lubed bullet. Insufficient crimp to keep it in place? Bullet sticking to seater plug? Tried seating in a case with no primer? Same thing happening?

Nathan · September 13, 2020, 08:42 AM

2 suggestions....Look at how much you are belling. Cast bullets need more belling.

Also, Bear Creek Supply has coated bullets that could work out better for you.

**Aguila Blanca** · September 13, 2020, 01:59 PM

Also look at your seating plug. It may not be suitable for SWC bullets. I occasionally load SWC for .45 ACP -- I had Lee make up a custom plug for seating just the SWC bullets. The center portion of the seating plug is bored out, so it bears only on the perimeter shoulder of the bullets. That ensures that the bullets go into the case straight and stay straight while being seated.

Swifty Morgan · September 13, 2020, 02:23 PM

I don't think compressed air is the problem, because I don't have this issue with other bullets. May be wrong. I can try holding the press handle down a little longer to let gas escape.

I can try belling the bullets more, but I don't know how it would help. I'm not totally thrilled with the extent of the belling now. I was thinking of increasing it anyway.

Quote:

I had Lee make up a custom plug for seating just the SWC bullets. The center portion of the seating plug is bored out, to it bears only on the perimeter shoulder of the bullets. That ensures that the bullets go into the case straight and stay straight while being seated.

I didn't see that one coming. I thought buying these bullets was smart because they're great for practice and supposedly better than round nose for self-defense, but now I'm thinking of throwing the rest of the box out because the aggravation isn't worth saving the $30 the bullets are worth.

I have about 200 in the can. Maybe I'll make a lead hammer out of the others.

They do appear to be seating correctly, though. The lube is dark blue, and it's very obvious if there is more blue on one side of the cartridge. I can actually tell which cartridges need to go through the press again.

PA-Joe · September 13, 2020, 02:42 PM

Are you trying to seat and crimp at the same time? I prefer to seat then crimp separately.

Swifty Morgan · September 13, 2020, 03:38 PM

There is a separate crimping die.

**Unclenick** · September 13, 2020, 03:58 PM

I think new member jpg66 is correct and you are compressing air. I've had this happen. It is especially and issue on cases that have been reloaded enough times to work-harden some and that spring back out a little after resizing so they don't grip the bullet as firmly as the once did. It's east to test. Seat a few bullets and measure their COL immediately after seating and before crimping, then just let them sit on the bench half an hour and measure again. If some have grown, you've got air pressure. Cartridges don't have anyplace for air bleed off quickly, and a bullet's lube is a good sealant. That leaves the primer fiit in its pocket to provide a leak path, and some will leak more than others, causing inconsistency.

One way to address the problem is to have two seating dies. You seat in one and then the second should have both the seating ram set to the same seating depth as the first and have its crimp shoulder set to the amount of crimp you want. By crimping in that second one you get the advantage of not crimping while the bullet is still sliding into the case (shaves the bullets) for most of your rounds, and a way to uniform the lengths of the others (though they may experience slight shaving).

Swifty Morgan · September 13, 2020, 05:54 PM

These are new casings, just so the information will be complete.

If it's compressed air, I wonder why it never happened with other greasy rounds.

I will fiddle around with these a little more, and if they continue to be a problem, I'll throw the rest out.

dyl · September 13, 2020, 07:59 PM

Could the wax be building up on the seating plug? Might want to have a look. If so a good cleaning with a solvent might help.

pete2 · September 13, 2020, 09:07 PM

New cases, did you run them thru you sizing die prior to loading? A tad more bell will usually help the lube shaving problem tho you may get a little lube build up in the seating die. I load lubed cast bullets in .45, .38 and some in 9MM. No major problems even with SWCs in 9 MM. Also, most seating dies are designed to crimp while seating, if the die is screwed in too far it will crimp or partially crimp and can cause shaving. I have no idea why the O.L. would get longer if the seating stem isn't backing out unless you have enough air pressure to push the bullet out, I have heard of this.

noylj · September 13, 2020, 11:59 PM

>I'm making 9mm semiwadcutters. I am not able to jam the bullets into the casings deeply enough to cover the lube grooves because they are very long. Wax is accumulating on the crimping die very quickly, and I have to clean the cartridges after they're finished. I think I'm all done with semiwadcutters. Super annoying to work with.

Wow, I thought I was the only person using SWCs in 9x19. What weight SWCs? Were they designed/recommended for 9x19?
What is too long? Never had any issue seating any bullet with any seating plug too deep. Maybe you're doing something wrong?
Semiwadcutters are the easiest to seat, using a seating plug that ONLY touches the bullet shoulder. Once set, it is set for EVERY SWC of that caliber.
IF you are getting bullet lube all over, the bullets are either already overly coated with lube going in or you are damaging the bullets during seating. Calling seating "jamming the bullets into the casings" shows problems beyond the bullet.
1) are you expanding the case so it is 0.001-0.002" under actual bullet dimeter? If not, use the expanding die or get a new expanding plug.
2) are you flaring the case mouth enough to ensue that the case mouth can not touch the bullet during seating? If not, flare the case mouth more.
3) are you seating the bullet straight? Does the seater stem FIT the bullet and is the bullet aligned on the case before seating? A proper case will allow you to push the bullet slightly into the case such that you can remove the round from the shell holder and turn the round upside down and NOT have the bullet fall off, prior to seating.
4) small thing, but be sure every case has been lightly chamfered inside and out at least ONCE.
5) pull your seated bullets and try to determine how damaged they are and WHY?

>I have another issue. I keep getting long cartridges. I set the seating die carefully for 1.040", and after a while, I start getting cartridges up to 1.060" long. Using firm, uniform pressure on the handle doesn't help. The die is not moving, so that isn't the problem.

Assuming that you are not short stroking your press, the only two ways to get LONG cartridges is because the die body is not firmly locked to the press/tool head or the seating stem is not firmly locked to the die body. You need to determine what the problem is.

Try reading a few more manuals and your press and die instructions, clean you dies with degreaser or brake cleaner spray, and start over.

September 12, 2020, 04:48 PM	#1
Swifty Morgan Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2018 Location: FL Posts: 634	Semiwadcutter Lengths Keep Wandering I'm making 9mm semiwadcutters. I am not able to jam the bullets into the casings deeply enough to cover the lube grooves because they are very long. Wax is accumulating on the crimping die very quickly, and I have to clean the cartridges after they're finished. I think I'm all done with semiwadcutters. Super annoying to work with. I have another issue. I keep getting long cartridges. I set the seating die carefully for 1.040", and after a while, I start getting cartridges up to 1.060" long. Using firm, uniform pressure on the handle doesn't help. The die is not moving, so that isn't the problem. Does anyone have any ideas? __________________ Selling a gun is like selling a child, without the relief over not having to pay for college The Bill of Rights was written largely to prevent rudeness. Infringement doesn't have to be catastrophic to be intolerable.

September 12, 2020, 05:03 PM	#3
Swifty Morgan Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2018 Location: FL Posts: 634	I would never have bought these things uncoated had I known what a pain they were. I have used lots of Oregon Trails bullets with no problems, but they seat so the grooves are covered. __________________ Selling a gun is like selling a child, without the relief over not having to pay for college The Bill of Rights was written largely to prevent rudeness. Infringement doesn't have to be catastrophic to be intolerable.

September 12, 2020, 05:41 PM	#5
Swifty Morgan Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2018 Location: FL Posts: 634	I can't figure out what's happening. The dies are tight. __________________ Selling a gun is like selling a child, without the relief over not having to pay for college The Bill of Rights was written largely to prevent rudeness. Infringement doesn't have to be catastrophic to be intolerable.

September 13, 2020, 01:59 PM	#8
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 19,051	Also look at your seating plug. It may not be suitable for SWC bullets. I occasionally load SWC for .45 ACP -- I had Lee make up a custom plug for seating just the SWC bullets. The center portion of the seating plug is bored out, so it bears only on the perimeter shoulder of the bullets. That ensures that the bullets go into the case straight and stay straight while being seated. __________________ NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO 1911 Certified Armorer Jeepaholic Last edited by Aguila Blanca; September 13, 2020 at 03:12 PM. Reason: typo

September 13, 2020, 03:38 PM	#11
Swifty Morgan Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2018 Location: FL Posts: 634	There is a separate crimping die. __________________ Selling a gun is like selling a child, without the relief over not having to pay for college The Bill of Rights was written largely to prevent rudeness. Infringement doesn't have to be catastrophic to be intolerable.

September 12, 2020, 04:51 PM	#2
nhyrum Senior Member Join Date: March 10, 2016 Posts: 598	You might look into using powdercoating to solve the grease issue. Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

September 12, 2020, 05:23 PM	#4
nhyrum Senior Member Join Date: March 10, 2016 Posts: 598	Ah I thought you were casting them yourself. Powdercoating is relatively cheap to do, should you decide to give it a go. You usually have to buy a whole pound, which goes a LONG... LONG... LOOOOOOONG way(I bet a tablespoon would do 1000 of my 350 grain 452 bullets). But a pound is about 10 bucks. Parchment paper, an oven and an old yogurt container are all that's needed after that. As for them growing after setting your dies. It could be the seating plug is backing out, that's usually where I run into issues, I don't like to have my dies cranked down. I like to be able to undo them by hand, but it's a fine line between that and coming loose (at least for things other than the die body) I don't really think that's the issue, but putting a witness mark on things and watching it just to doubly triple check that they are not in fact moving could be helpful. You might want to measure at least a hand full of bullets to make sure they're not where the extra length is coming from (unlikely, if that were the case the oal would probably stay the same and you'd just have even more bullet stuffed in the case) Really though, to me, the only thing that makes sense as to why they are "growing" is that something in the die set is coming undone. Everything else I can think of you wouldn't get much variation, or they'd get shorter, not longer Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

September 13, 2020, 08:42 AM	#7
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,825	2 suggestions....Look at how much you are belling. Cast bullets need more belling. Also, Bear Creek Supply has coated bullets that could work out better for you.

September 13, 2020, 02:42 PM	#10
PA-Joe Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2010 Location: NEPA Posts: 909	Are you trying to seat and crimp at the same time? I prefer to seat then crimp separately.

September 13, 2020, 03:58 PM	#12
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,743	I think new member jpg66 is correct and you are compressing air. I've had this happen. It is especially and issue on cases that have been reloaded enough times to work-harden some and that spring back out a little after resizing so they don't grip the bullet as firmly as the once did. It's east to test. Seat a few bullets and measure their COL immediately after seating and before crimping, then just let them sit on the bench half an hour and measure again. If some have grown, you've got air pressure. Cartridges don't have anyplace for air bleed off quickly, and a bullet's lube is a good sealant. That leaves the primer fiit in its pocket to provide a leak path, and some will leak more than others, causing inconsistency. One way to address the problem is to have two seating dies. You seat in one and then the second should have both the seating ram set to the same seating depth as the first and have its crimp shoulder set to the amount of crimp you want. By crimping in that second one you get the advantage of not crimping while the bullet is still sliding into the case (shaves the bullets) for most of your rounds, and a way to uniform the lengths of the others (though they may experience slight shaving). __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

September 13, 2020, 05:54 PM	#13
Swifty Morgan Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2018 Location: FL Posts: 634	These are new casings, just so the information will be complete. If it's compressed air, I wonder why it never happened with other greasy rounds. I will fiddle around with these a little more, and if they continue to be a problem, I'll throw the rest out. __________________ Selling a gun is like selling a child, without the relief over not having to pay for college The Bill of Rights was written largely to prevent rudeness. Infringement doesn't have to be catastrophic to be intolerable.

September 13, 2020, 07:59 PM	#14
dyl Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,310	Could the wax be building up on the seating plug? Might want to have a look. If so a good cleaning with a solvent might help.

September 13, 2020, 09:07 PM	#15
pete2 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 2,610	New cases, did you run them thru you sizing die prior to loading? A tad more bell will usually help the lube shaving problem tho you may get a little lube build up in the seating die. I load lubed cast bullets in .45, .38 and some in 9MM. No major problems even with SWCs in 9 MM. Also, most seating dies are designed to crimp while seating, if the die is screwed in too far it will crimp or partially crimp and can cause shaving. I have no idea why the O.L. would get longer if the seating stem isn't backing out unless you have enough air pressure to push the bullet out, I have heard of this.

September 13, 2020, 11:59 PM	#16
noylj Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2007 Location: Between CA and NM Posts: 860	>I'm making 9mm semiwadcutters. I am not able to jam the bullets into the casings deeply enough to cover the lube grooves because they are very long. Wax is accumulating on the crimping die very quickly, and I have to clean the cartridges after they're finished. I think I'm all done with semiwadcutters. Super annoying to work with. Wow, I thought I was the only person using SWCs in 9x19. What weight SWCs? Were they designed/recommended for 9x19? What is too long? Never had any issue seating any bullet with any seating plug too deep. Maybe you're doing something wrong? Semiwadcutters are the easiest to seat, using a seating plug that ONLY touches the bullet shoulder. Once set, it is set for EVERY SWC of that caliber. IF you are getting bullet lube all over, the bullets are either already overly coated with lube going in or you are damaging the bullets during seating. Calling seating "jamming the bullets into the casings" shows problems beyond the bullet. 1) are you expanding the case so it is 0.001-0.002" under actual bullet dimeter? If not, use the expanding die or get a new expanding plug. 2) are you flaring the case mouth enough to ensue that the case mouth can not touch the bullet during seating? If not, flare the case mouth more. 3) are you seating the bullet straight? Does the seater stem FIT the bullet and is the bullet aligned on the case before seating? A proper case will allow you to push the bullet slightly into the case such that you can remove the round from the shell holder and turn the round upside down and NOT have the bullet fall off, prior to seating. 4) small thing, but be sure every case has been lightly chamfered inside and out at least ONCE. 5) pull your seated bullets and try to determine how damaged they are and WHY? >I have another issue. I keep getting long cartridges. I set the seating die carefully for 1.040", and after a while, I start getting cartridges up to 1.060" long. Using firm, uniform pressure on the handle doesn't help. The die is not moving, so that isn't the problem. Assuming that you are not short stroking your press, the only two ways to get LONG cartridges is because the die body is not firmly locked to the press/tool head or the seating stem is not firmly locked to the die body. You need to determine what the problem is. Try reading a few more manuals and your press and die instructions, clean you dies with degreaser or brake cleaner spray, and start over. Last edited by noylj; September 14, 2020 at 12:04 AM.