Best 223 brass

[Nathan]

I have an AR that is capable of really good groups. With mixed LC brass, I was getting 1” @ 100 yard groups. With year sorted LC, I’m getting 0.5-0.8” @ 100 yard groups. I’d like some consistency around this area.

So, I’m looking at brass as a way to add consistency. I know Lapua makes great brass. I hear Norma makes good brass at a better price. Starline, even lower price, but good rep!

[totaldla]

i dont understand the realationship between brass and group size. case capacity variation is quite small.

[jetinteriorguy]

Your already using the best brass, LC rocks. If you want to make it better, turn the necks, swage and chamfer the primer pockets to remove burrs on the inside of the primer pocket, then trim to length chamfer and deburr the necks. Then full length size with a Redding body die, and resize the necks with a Lee Collet Neck sizing die. Finally seat your bullets with a Forster Micrometer seating die. With this method and my bet load I consistently get .5-.75 ten shot groups all day long if I’m on my game, not just that one good group and then every thing else is 1.5-2”.

[Marco Califo]

Starline makes 223 brass and a different 5.56 brass. The 5.56 is harder in the case head.
https://www.starlinebrass.com/556x45mm-brass
If you want new brass and cannot buy LC new, these sound perfect. They are backordered until October.

Starline also makes a 45 ACP +P brass that is a strengthened version of their regular 45 ACP, less case volume.

[Average Joe]

I only use Lake City, any year will do.

[hounddawg]

I agree with the other posters, LC is about as good as it gets for .223.

Starline's stuff is top shelf also. I just got through converting some of their 6.5 Grendel to 30 cal, had one case shoulder collapse out of one hundred when expanding. Case necks were all .012 thick and case lengths were plus or minus .0015. Primer pockets were uniform and flash holes looked good

[Mike38]

A friend gave me ~500 pcs of once fired LC brass. I was going to give them away because I didn't want to bother with the crimped primers. Maybe I should hang on to them? I commonly use Winchester .223 brass with fairly good results. I'll have to try this LC.

[hagar]

RG (Radway Green) is pretty good as well, so is Winchester.

[603Country]

Lapua. That, Nosler and Norma are the best, and don’t need any prep. If you don’t mind doing the full prep, you can do just as well with LC, Win, and Rem (and others). Personally, I just got tired of doing the prep work.

I still trim and chamfer Norma and Lapua. Nosler needs no prep of any kind though it doesn’t seem as durable as the other two. In my 220 Swift, Norma always seemed to have the longest life.

I’ve never used brass from a couple of the new makers, so can’t comment.

[Marco Califo]

Radway Green are British milspec (NATO). I have some, bought as SS109/855 Live ammo. Not really available as bulk once-fired in U.S.
Lake City, unless you can find new unloaded (buy them if you do) are crimped and must be processed. I like a counter sink drill bit for processing.

[kmw1954]

Nathan you passed along some nice links to me in my thread and I much appreciate those.

As I am just starting out with this round I am just going to have to find out for myself, form my own opinion as to what is best or how far I want to go.

I have some CFL and some PMC non-crimped brass ready to start my first loading with and while I am waiting on a Headspace gauge and a small pocket reamer I believe I am going to take the time and weigh these for myself and then preform a volume check just for my own edification.

Also I have a bunch of Lake City brass already deprimed and wet tumbled and then sorted by Date code. These will be kept as seperate lots.

[Metal god]

Nathan , Changing brass is not likely to get you from 1moa to 1/2moa . What's your load that is getting the 1moa . Also what firearm/barrel are you shooting ? There might be other places we can find you some smaller groups . Like different bullet or powder , maybe your rifle won't do much better . For my AR's I'm pretty happy with a consistent 1moa from them , Your rig will need to be pretty good to shoot sub moa consistently and lets not forget about the nut behind the wheel , sometimes that needs tightening - lol

[Nathan]

I feel like I’m not being clear. With the current rifle and components there are maybe 3-5 different combinations that are yielding 0.48-0.7” groups, but when I take any of those and load 50 rounds, the average group is about 1”.

The rifle is a home built AR15 out of quality components. WOA SS 20” 223 Wylde SPR barrel (Wilson blank); Aero M4E1 upper/lower set; Magpul PSR stock; Jard single stage trigger...good stuff

The components are LC16 brass(trimmed, swaged, uniformed, chamfered, deburred, flash holes uniformed), CFE223 powder, Hornady 75gr BTHP Match bullets(tested at several depths).

If you see another source of variation, please let me know.

[Metal god]

Yeah real good stuff , nice :-)

Ineresting that when you load in bulk the groups avg bigger ??? Or you still shoot some small groups but there's a moa group in there sometimes ???

Groups always open up . Not because the load changes but the more you shoot groups they just simply get bigger because its hard to shoot that consistent every time . There are those that say they can but ... The one thing I’ve learned over the years is the more I shoot the bigger the groups get . My 1/2,moa 5 shot groups are just under moa 10 shot groups and over 10 shots is hard to hold moa . It’s just what happens the more you shoot the bigger they get . If you can hold "every" 5 shot group to moa or better with an AR , I'd say that's pretty good .

Here's a 10 shot group I did with my National Match AR

.85 moa 10 shot group "with" those 2 flyers , I can't shoot that every time but sub moa 5 shot groups are pretty much a given and half moa or better happens but not often .

[Unclenick]

Some brass has more neck wall runout than other makes. This not only offsets the centering of the bullet in the chamber neck directly, it can affect how straight the bullet seats, depending upon what seating die you use. How much effect this has on group size depends on where the bullet's center of gravity is with respect to the geometric center of the bearing surface. When the two are close together or match (think DEWC bullet shape), then bullet tilt in the bore has as little as no effect at all. When they are further apart (think light, long ogive flat base or short BT bullet), then bullets tilted up to about 0.004" (0.008" TIR) can add over an moa to group size (e.g., A. A. Abbatiello's experiment with 47 lots of National Match ammunition published in the American Rifleman circa 1962¹). For a shorter benchrest style bullet, Harold Vaughn got the same amount of bullet tilt (about 0.004") to open a machine rest gun (a one-holer) group about half that much.


¹I don't have an exact reference, but he was an Oak Ridge National Laboratories engineer who was publishing in the '60s and '70s whose article on this experiment is reprinted without reference in the 1981 NRA book, Handloading, and which I have a copy of

[Nathan]

i dont understand the realationship between brass and group size. case capacity variation is quite small.

IME, the effect is more related to concentricity of surfaces and wall thickness variations, especially in the neck. You can anneal, neck turn, shoot, reanneal and get very good fit, but just buying something already precisely made is a a time saver and should produce better results.

[Metal god]

but just buying something already precisely made is a a time saver and should produce better results.

They are not precisely made . My Lapua brass is barely better then my once fired LC brass and I'd say hardly consistent . I have found zero difference in my ability to shoot small groups based on if I'm using Lapua or LC brass . It is much more likely me then the brass that is causing inconsistencies . IMHO If you're not careful you will end up chasing your tail . I personally have learned in the last few years "I" can't buy my self to better groups . In some respects I shot better before spending hundreds of dollars on better equipment . Could be the tools didn't help that much but likely means I can't shoot better then 1/2 to 3/4 moa with my firearms and style of shooting . YMMV

[jetinteriorguy]

Originally Posted by Metal god

They are not precisely made . My Lapua brass is barely better then my once fired LC brass and I'd say hardly consistent . I have found zero difference in my ability to shoot small groups based on if I'm using Lapua or LC brass . It is much more likely me then the brass that is causing inconsistencies . IMHO If you're not careful you will end up chasing your tail . I personally have learned in the last few years "I" can't buy my self to better groups . In some respects I shot better before spending hundreds of dollars on better equipment . Could be the tools didn't help that much but likely means I can't shoot better then 1/2 to 3/4 moa with my firearms and style of shooting . YMMV

I’ve pretty much had the same experience. But my goal wasn’t to make me a better shot through almost perfect ammunition, but to expose my inadequacies through better ammunition and equipment. Once all excuses are erased, I now know what to work on.

[hounddawg]

IME, the effect is more related to concentricity of surfaces and wall thickness variations, especially in the neck. You can anneal, neck turn, shoot, reanneal and get very good fit, but just buying something already precisely made is a a time saver and should produce better results.

if using quality components and the putting the crosshairs on the X was all there is to shooting small groups we would all be in the record books wouldn't we ?

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by Metal god

My Lapua brass is barely better then my once fired LC brass and I'd say hardly consistent .

That's disappointing to hear. All the Lapua brass I've had (.308 W and .30-06, mostly) has had about half the neck wall thickness variation of LC and none of the internal flash hole burrs.

[Metal god]

That's disappointing to hear. All the Lapua brass I've had (.308 W and .30-06, mostly) has had about half the neck wall thickness variation of LC and none of the internal flash hole burrs.
__________________

I was speaking more to neck wall thickness and half for me with the Lapua would make my LC necks .004 thicker on one side then the other and I'm just not seeing that . .003 sometimes but a .0025 to .002 is not to uncommon . My Lapua brass is not .0015 or better .

As for burs on the flash holes . Yes my LC brass does have some burs , However out of the few thousand 308 cases I have . I've not come across one that the flash hole was actually obstructed , really in any way .

Here are a couple examples of what I see . Some of these are 223 cases but I believe represent what I see pretty much with all . Yes there are burs but they are pretty much out of the way and don't interfere with the primer flash .

[Nathan]

if using quality components and the putting the crosshairs on the X was all there is to shooting small groups we would all be in the record books wouldn't we ?

Not really. You gotta shoot. You gotta know how pull the trigger, hold the rifle, develop the loads...

[Marco Califo]

MG, those photos look like you started with a drill, and then used a hacksaw, the way you have flat areas and dips.
Personally, I have never sectioned brass. I think I would try a pipe-cutter that you tighten and spin.
I do not know how anyone cuts the lengthwise.

[Metal god]

Marco , haha Actually I used my Lyman universal case trimmer to trim those . The problem with that was the first one I tried I forced it too much and the case dislodged from the holder and I slammed the blade against the case holder while in full rotation . Which chipped three of the blades and broke one off completely. Instead of using a new blade for the rest of the cases I just used that broken blade and went slow , it clearly did not cut very well as the results show lol

This is what they look like when cut down with a sharp blade and don't superman the pressure/force . The Lyman universal case trimmer is a very good trimmer IMO but it does not get the love I think it deserves .

[std7mag]

I started out on 223 Rem with range pickup brass.
Then started sorting out & using LC brass.
Someone on another forum had posted their weight & voljume results by headstamp and found the Starline brass was most consistant.
So i bought some 5.56 headstamp from Starline.
My groups shooting matches out to 400 yards did not improve with the casing change.

I would look more to your loading process, or component selection.
I tried CFE 223, and abandonded it. I could never get the ES/SD to settle down.
I hear that magnum primers help, but i had already moved on.
I'm now using Alliant Power Pro 2000 MR for the heavier bullets with good results.

Are you measuring each charge, or just throwing it?

Consistant neck tension does matter. As does consistant crimp, if your using one.

What kind of optic are you using? A 3MOA red dot isn't going to shrink group sizes.