223 loading

Nube · May 28, 2019, 11:43 AM

Ok I have gotten I think all of the supplies that I need. I have a hornady l&l kit with a few accessories. My first question is: I have hornady bullets that have a cannular in 224 caliber. I have a hornady manual. I have read that you seat to the cannular?(But not in the manual) If that is the case then the col is going to be short also it is a 223 bolt action. The books say col is 2.26 max and I have a dummy round at 2.25 which places the cannular above the brass. I think that this is ok but need another opinion. Thanks for the replies (Sorry about the grammatical errors)

T. O'Heir · May 28, 2019, 02:36 PM

You can forget the cannelure altogether and just load to the Max OAL given in your manual.
American manuals follow SAAMI specs. SAAMI(Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute) Max OAL for .223 is 2.260". Minimum is 2.125". Anything in between is fine. so your 2.250" will be fine. 10 thou isn't much and nothingto worry about.
Then there's the whole Off-The-Lands thing. That's an optional, 100% trial and error, load tweaking technique that is not absolutely necessary. It'd can be done after you have worked up the load. If you feel like it.
What is important is that you check case lengths, trim, chamfer and deburr as required only if you need to(Trimming is unlikely with new brass, but you will need to chamfer the case mouths). The chamfering of the inside of the case mouth makes seating easier.

Nube · May 28, 2019, 03:00 PM

Thanks for the reply that is what I thought but as I am just beginning I wanted to get another opinion. Reading the internet can be confusing .

Dufus · May 28, 2019, 03:00 PM

Seat the bullets anywhere you want if they fit in the magazine.

greaseswabber · May 28, 2019, 04:10 PM

I tried seating FMJs longer than the cannelure, at 2.260. They didn't shoot well in my 16" AR. Hornady recommends seating their 55 gr FMJ BT at 2.200. That gave me much better results.

Other guns shoot better other way around. Pick a length that fits and try it.

NoSecondBest · May 28, 2019, 04:11 PM

I just went through a couple of months of load development for a new .223 barrel on my TC Encore. I used quite a few different bullets, some with cannelure and most without. As mentioned above, just pretend it isn't there. Just some advice if you haven't already heard it: the .223 Rem is probably the fussiest caliber to load for as far as barrel twist is concerned. Find out what twist your barrel is and then start with some bullets that are "close/appropriate" for that twist. Today, you can buy a .223 with 1:7, 1:8, 1:9, 1:10, 1:12, and I've even seen a 1:14 twist barrel. Probably the most popular is the 1:9 twist...it's for those who can't decide (me). It shoots 50-62g bullets pretty good and 69g sometimes "fair". Good luck with your new gun and reloading.

Nube · May 28, 2019, 04:19 PM

I just looked and it is a 1 in 9 twist so my 55 grain bullets should be fine if i understand right. Again thanks for the replies, it really helps a lot for a beginner!!!

Bart B. · May 30, 2019, 08:45 AM

For what it might be worth, note the 222 Rem shooting 50 to 52 grain match bullets in 1:14 twist barrels was the ticket to win benchrest matches in the 1950's.

Today, the 223 Rem shoots the same bullet a little faster. I would use a 1:15 twist .223 barrel with those bullets today. Spinning bullets too fast degrades accuracy; all bullets are not perfectly balanced.

Check this out: https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=530927

zeke · May 30, 2019, 10:09 AM

Another possible consideration for COL may be what you're chamber will accept without jamming the bullet into the lands. Not all chambers are cut the same, and some bullets have the full dia located more toward the tip of the bullet. Some bullets prefer a longer jump to the rifling.

Reloadron · May 30, 2019, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Ok I have gotten I think all of the supplies that I need. I have a hornady l&l kit with a few accessories. My first question is: I have hornady bullets that have a cannular in 224 caliber. I have a hornady manual. I have read that you seat to the cannular?(But not in the manual) If that is the case then the col is going to be short also it is a 223 bolt action. The books say col is 2.26 max and I have a dummy round at 2.25 which places the cannular above the brass. I think that this is ok but need another opinion. Thanks for the replies (Sorry about the grammatical errors)

The only Hornady .223 Remington bullets I am aware of with a cannelure are the GMX bullets and the 55 grain SP W/C or 55 grain FMJ-BT W/C. Working from the Hornady 9th. I see a trim to length of 1.750", are your cases trimmed to suggested length?

Next as to the COL for the GMX bullets:
50 grain GMX is 2.165"
55 grain FMJ-BT W/C or 55 grain SP W/C is 2.200" (These are non-GMX types)
55 grain GMX is 2.185"
70 Grain GMX is 2.235"

You may want to note that the 70 grain GMX bullet has two cannelures. When loading per the 5.56 NATO section of the manual they call out:

70 grain GMX is 2.250 (this is 0.015" greater than the .223 Remington service rifle loading section calls out. I believe if you work with the numbers in the Hornady Manual using Hornady bullets your cannelures will be at the case mouth when you seat your bullets. While I agree you can seat for any COL you wish I would start with working from the manual you have from Hornady.

Ron

NoSecondBest · May 30, 2019, 10:48 AM

No one makes a 1:15 barrel for .223. For many, many years the "standard" twist was 1:12. Today, that twist is an exception. About everyone shooting an AR platform is using a 1:8 or 1:9 twist. A twist of 1:15 would be horribly slow for any bullet.

There are several bullets with cannelures. The Nosler varmageddon 62g HPFB immediately comes to mind. There are several more out there.

Bart B. · May 30, 2019, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoSecondBest

A twist of 1:15 would be horribly slow for any bullet.

1:16 twist is common for 22 caliber 40 grain bullets leaving 1100 fps.

Geezerbiker · May 30, 2019, 12:00 PM

If the the length of the magazine allows it, I always start by seating the bullets .003 off the rifling or so at least one diameter length of the bullet is seated into the case neck...

I've never bothered with published over all length specs...

Tony

NoSecondBest · May 30, 2019, 12:02 PM

Quote:

1:16 twist is common for 22 caliber 40 grain bullets leaving 1100 fps.

That's called a .22lr, a rimfire round. You'd be very hard pressed to even find a centerfire barrel in .223 in that twist. I've never seen one or heard of one. The OP isn't looking for rimfire advice.
Read this link to the history of the .223, and the rifling twists developed and used from conception to today's military round. It started life being designed for a 55g FMJ bullet being fired at 3300fps and had a 1:12 bbl. Today it has a 1:9 bbl and fires heavier bullets. It never fired a 40g bullet except by reloaders who adopted the use of this military cartridge. Some manufactures are still making and marketing rifles with 1:12 bbls, but they are becoming increasingly unpopular due to the availability of heavier bullets used for long range shooting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington

Bart B. · May 30, 2019, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nube

Ok I have gotten I think all of the supplies that I need. I have a hornady l&l kit with a few accessories. My first question is: I have hornady bullets that have a cannular in 224 caliber. I have a hornady manual. I have read that you seat to the cannular?(But not in the manual) If that is the case then the col is going to be short also it is a 223 bolt action. The books say col is 2.26 max and I have a dummy round at 2.25 which places the cannular above the brass. I think that this is ok but need another opinion. Thanks for the replies (Sorry about the grammatical errors)

How long is the barrel? What twist?

NoSecondBest · May 30, 2019, 02:13 PM

Ignore the cannelure. You don't have to use it and it makes NO difference if you don't. Neck tension is all you need to hold the bullet in place. This has been discussed ad nauseam on many other sites. The same thing holds that bullet in place that holds the bullets in place without a cannelure....neck tension. This round is so mild in recoil that the bullet won't move when shooting the gun.

T. O'Heir · May 30, 2019, 02:41 PM

"...Reading the internet can be confusing..." Hi. That's why we always say to read your manual.
"...to win benchrest matches in the 1950's..." Wouldn't be competitive today. And we all owe a great deal to the bench rest guys. The assortment of quality match grade bullets(no match grade 6mm bullets when I started chasing ground hogs etc.) we have now are due to them creating the demand.

ms6852 · May 30, 2019, 09:04 PM

As you can see that there is a ton of variables when loading and shooting ammo. It can be mind-blowing but do not let it get to you. When I started reloading 40 years ago all I did was just started loading 5 rounds at minimum and work myself up in .3 grain increments to close to max load. I than would shoot 5 rounds of each load to see which load gave me the best group. Once I got the smallest 5 shot group I only used that load. I tried different powders and primers as well.

Once you get the hang of it and you are interested in competition than I would go the next step. If non of the loads work well than it is time to use different c.o.l. and repeat the process until you get the group you want. It may be tedious but it is also fun having to shoot a lot.

thallub · May 31, 2019, 08:42 AM

Quote:

I've never bothered with published over all length specs...

Neither have i.

If the round fits the magazine it's acceptable. Many of my bolt action target rounds are too long and are single loaded.

Bart B. · May 31, 2019, 11:45 AM

Seating bullets at least one caliber deep has been the standard by some for decades. I have no idea what the reasoning is to do it.

Matches have been won and records set with bullets set much shallower. Example: 308 Win with 145 to 155 grain bullets in Palma matches.

Reloadron · May 31, 2019, 02:45 PM

I think what needs a little consideration here is how new the reloader is to reloading his or her own ammunition. The original poster is not out shooting matches, it would seem they simply want to make reliable ammunition. This is why I pointed back to the Hornady manual which the original poster is working from and the Hornady bullets the original poster is using.

While I agree seating depth can vary as was well covered the question is using the manual the original poster has and the bullets the original poster has why are the bullets not seating to the cannelure? Has anyone given any thought to the question?

Ron

Nube · May 31, 2019, 05:27 PM

THANKS FOR THE REPLIES!! I really appreciate it!! I have solved my problems with the help of this and doing some trial and error with a dummy round. All I need to get is some time and weather to try out my “new “ loads. Just for everyone’s information I have loaded up with varget and 55 grain bullets, per the hornady manual, and after I got them adjusted the “ cannelure“ was just about where it was supposed to be. That taught me to make a dummy round and see how it chambered first!! Again thanks for the replies. Hopefully I don’t ask too many questions about things that I should have been able to look up on my own, but sometimes opinions are helpful.

Reloadron · May 31, 2019, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Hopefully I don’t ask too many questions about things that I should have been able to look up on my own, but sometimes opinions are helpful.

Glad things went well and anytime you have questions ask. Every reloading enthusiast starts out somewhere.

Ron

603Country · May 31, 2019, 10:05 PM

My 223 is also a 9 twist. I get great accuracy with 40 gr Nosler BTs, 55 gr BTs, 60 gr Partitions and 65 gr Sierra GKs, all over H335 powder. Varget works fine too, but with some bullets and loads it’s hard to get all the powder I want to use packed into the case.

As for COAL, I have noticed that the Nosler manual’s recommended loads and COAL with their bullets will be close to what I’ll find to be best.

May 28, 2019, 11:43 AM	#1
Nube Member Join Date: December 30, 2018 Location: NE Nebraska Posts: 52	223 loading Ok I have gotten I think all of the supplies that I need. I have a hornady l&l kit with a few accessories. My first question is: I have hornady bullets that have a cannular in 224 caliber. I have a hornady manual. I have read that you seat to the cannular?(But not in the manual) If that is the case then the col is going to be short also it is a 223 bolt action. The books say col is 2.26 max and I have a dummy round at 2.25 which places the cannular above the brass. I think that this is ok but need another opinion. Thanks for the replies (Sorry about the grammatical errors)

May 30, 2019, 08:45 AM	#8
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	For what it might be worth, note the 222 Rem shooting 50 to 52 grain match bullets in 1:14 twist barrels was the ticket to win benchrest matches in the 1950's. Today, the 223 Rem shoots the same bullet a little faster. I would use a 1:15 twist .223 barrel with those bullets today. Spinning bullets too fast degrades accuracy; all bullets are not perfectly balanced. Check this out: https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=530927 Last edited by Bart B.; May 30, 2019 at 09:33 AM.

May 31, 2019, 05:27 PM	#22
Nube Member Join Date: December 30, 2018 Location: NE Nebraska Posts: 52	THANKS FOR THE REPLIES!! I really appreciate it!! I have solved my problems with the help of this and doing some trial and error with a dummy round. All I need to get is some time and weather to try out my “new “ loads. Just for everyone’s information I have loaded up with varget and 55 grain bullets, per the hornady manual, and after I got them adjusted the “ cannelure“ was just about where it was supposed to be. That taught me to make a dummy round and see how it chambered first!! Again thanks for the replies. Hopefully I don’t ask too many questions about things that I should have been able to look up on my own, but sometimes opinions are helpful. Last edited by Nube; May 31, 2019 at 05:28 PM. Reason: Spelling

May 28, 2019, 02:36 PM	#2
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	You can forget the cannelure altogether and just load to the Max OAL given in your manual. American manuals follow SAAMI specs. SAAMI(Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute) Max OAL for .223 is 2.260". Minimum is 2.125". Anything in between is fine. so your 2.250" will be fine. 10 thou isn't much and nothingto worry about. Then there's the whole Off-The-Lands thing. That's an optional, 100% trial and error, load tweaking technique that is not absolutely necessary. It'd can be done after you have worked up the load. If you feel like it. What is important is that you check case lengths, trim, chamfer and deburr as required only if you need to(Trimming is unlikely with new brass, but you will need to chamfer the case mouths). The chamfering of the inside of the case mouth makes seating easier.

May 28, 2019, 03:00 PM	#3
Nube Member Join Date: December 30, 2018 Location: NE Nebraska Posts: 52	Thanks for the reply that is what I thought but as I am just beginning I wanted to get another opinion. Reading the internet can be confusing .

May 28, 2019, 03:00 PM	#4
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,967	Seat the bullets anywhere you want if they fit in the magazine.

May 28, 2019, 04:10 PM	#5
greaseswabber Junior Member Join Date: November 9, 2014 Posts: 11	I tried seating FMJs longer than the cannelure, at 2.260. They didn't shoot well in my 16" AR. Hornady recommends seating their 55 gr FMJ BT at 2.200. That gave me much better results. Other guns shoot better other way around. Pick a length that fits and try it.

May 28, 2019, 04:11 PM	#6
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	I just went through a couple of months of load development for a new .223 barrel on my TC Encore. I used quite a few different bullets, some with cannelure and most without. As mentioned above, just pretend it isn't there. Just some advice if you haven't already heard it: the .223 Rem is probably the fussiest caliber to load for as far as barrel twist is concerned. Find out what twist your barrel is and then start with some bullets that are "close/appropriate" for that twist. Today, you can buy a .223 with 1:7, 1:8, 1:9, 1:10, 1:12, and I've even seen a 1:14 twist barrel. Probably the most popular is the 1:9 twist...it's for those who can't decide (me). It shoots 50-62g bullets pretty good and 69g sometimes "fair". Good luck with your new gun and reloading.

May 28, 2019, 04:19 PM	#7
Nube Member Join Date: December 30, 2018 Location: NE Nebraska Posts: 52	I just looked and it is a 1 in 9 twist so my 55 grain bullets should be fine if i understand right. Again thanks for the replies, it really helps a lot for a beginner!!!

May 30, 2019, 10:09 AM	#9
zeke Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 1999 Location: NW Wi Posts: 1,759	Another possible consideration for COL may be what you're chamber will accept without jamming the bullet into the lands. Not all chambers are cut the same, and some bullets have the full dia located more toward the tip of the bullet. Some bullets prefer a longer jump to the rifling.

May 30, 2019, 10:48 AM	#11
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	No one makes a 1:15 barrel for .223. For many, many years the "standard" twist was 1:12. Today, that twist is an exception. About everyone shooting an AR platform is using a 1:8 or 1:9 twist. A twist of 1:15 would be horribly slow for any bullet. There are several bullets with cannelures. The Nosler varmageddon 62g HPFB immediately comes to mind. There are several more out there.

May 30, 2019, 12:00 PM	#13
Geezerbiker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2011 Location: Willamina, OR Posts: 1,909	If the the length of the magazine allows it, I always start by seating the bullets .003 off the rifling or so at least one diameter length of the bullet is seated into the case neck... I've never bothered with published over all length specs... Tony

May 30, 2019, 02:13 PM	#16
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	Ignore the cannelure. You don't have to use it and it makes NO difference if you don't. Neck tension is all you need to hold the bullet in place. This has been discussed ad nauseam on many other sites. The same thing holds that bullet in place that holds the bullets in place without a cannelure....neck tension. This round is so mild in recoil that the bullet won't move when shooting the gun.

May 30, 2019, 02:41 PM	#17
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...Reading the internet can be confusing..." Hi. That's why we always say to read your manual. "...to win benchrest matches in the 1950's..." Wouldn't be competitive today. And we all owe a great deal to the bench rest guys. The assortment of quality match grade bullets(no match grade 6mm bullets when I started chasing ground hogs etc.) we have now are due to them creating the demand.

May 30, 2019, 09:04 PM	#18
ms6852 Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 1,394	As you can see that there is a ton of variables when loading and shooting ammo. It can be mind-blowing but do not let it get to you. When I started reloading 40 years ago all I did was just started loading 5 rounds at minimum and work myself up in .3 grain increments to close to max load. I than would shoot 5 rounds of each load to see which load gave me the best group. Once I got the smallest 5 shot group I only used that load. I tried different powders and primers as well. Once you get the hang of it and you are interested in competition than I would go the next step. If non of the loads work well than it is time to use different c.o.l. and repeat the process until you get the group you want. It may be tedious but it is also fun having to shoot a lot.

May 31, 2019, 11:45 AM	#20
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Seating bullets at least one caliber deep has been the standard by some for decades. I have no idea what the reasoning is to do it. Matches have been won and records set with bullets set much shallower. Example: 308 Win with 145 to 155 grain bullets in Palma matches.

May 31, 2019, 02:45 PM	#21
Reloadron Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2016 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Suburbs Posts: 1,756	I think what needs a little consideration here is how new the reloader is to reloading his or her own ammunition. The original poster is not out shooting matches, it would seem they simply want to make reliable ammunition. This is why I pointed back to the Hornady manual which the original poster is working from and the Hornady bullets the original poster is using. While I agree seating depth can vary as was well covered the question is using the manual the original poster has and the bullets the original poster has why are the bullets not seating to the cannelure? Has anyone given any thought to the question? Ron

May 31, 2019, 10:05 PM	#24
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 4,039	My 223 is also a 9 twist. I get great accuracy with 40 gr Nosler BTs, 55 gr BTs, 60 gr Partitions and 65 gr Sierra GKs, all over H335 powder. Varget works fine too, but with some bullets and loads it’s hard to get all the powder I want to use packed into the case. As for COAL, I have noticed that the Nosler manual’s recommended loads and COAL with their bullets will be close to what I’ll find to be best.