Unburned Powder

[The Old Salt]

First time I ever had this happen. Today I was shooting some 45 LC loads through my Taurus Judge, 2 1/2" 410 Mod.
Load was 230g homecast LRN over 15.0g IMR4227.
IVs for 8 shots ran from a low of 300 fps to a high of 425 fps, ave iv was 378 fps.
Every fired case had 20% 0r more unburned powder still in the case when the it was extracted.

So ... one of you pistol guys tell me what happened today.

For compairison I fired some American Aegle, factory 250g cawboy loads chrony was 850 to 900fps as box data suggested it should be.

Also fired some Unique loadings. 8.2g Unique, same bullet. (Cowboy loading is 8.5g)
Unique does not fill the case. There was 1/4" or more of case capacity left empty. So I used a stack of cardboard over powder wads to fill the empty space.
IVs were 380-415 fps w ave iv of 385 fps. Very mild recoil, I would like to have IVs in the 700 to 800 fps range. My first thought is to push up to 8.5g then 9.0g (continuing to fill the empty space with wad) to see what happens.

Thx in advance fofr your comments.

[Dufus]

The IMR4227 & H4227 are slow powders in handguns. I find them slower than WW296/H110.

Best performance is with full power loads and even then there is a fair amount of unburied powder in the barrel.

I once ran across load data using the H4227 in the 38 Special. I might have gotten 7 rounds down the barrel and that was it. I took the remaining cartridges home and unloaded them.

The two 4227s will shine in something in the category of 454 Casull but not the 45 Colt.

[Aguila Blanca]

Have you considered Trail Boss?

[TX Nimrod]

There is no good reason to fill the case with card wads, in fact that could be dangerous in some instances. 4227 is totally unsuited for low pressure loads, hence the unburned powder; the minimum charge Hodgdon recommends is 20 grains. Unique is a classic .45 LC powder and will give you the performance you desire. No wads!


.

[The Old Salt]

Thx for the heads up on 4227 not being suited for low power. Got some bullets to pull down now.
Have not tried Trail Boss. Was using powders I have in inventory to start with.
I only used the over powder wads with the Unique, but I hear Unique don't care about empty space in the case. Good! loading just got easier. If Unique is really good for 45LC I'll keep working with it. The Judge 2 1/2" 410 model has a cylinder that measures 2 9/16" long. With a COL of 1.858" for the 45LC that leaves 0.704" of cylinder for the bullet to pass throughn before exiting. The cylinder is 0.460" dia. Lots of room to loose pressure. Read a post where an individual was loading 10.0g Unique for his Judge. Folks thought it was too hot, but with the cylinder dimensions we are talking about it might not be. Going to load up 8.5g, 9.0g & 9.5g and see how they preform.
Thx to all who weighed in and the ears are open for anyone else's thoughts.

[44 AMP]

Unique doesn't care about empty space in the case. Its going to be dirtier than some people like but it works fine and has been one of the main go to powders in .45 Colt for a century or so.

Now this..

With a COL of 1.858" for the 45LC

Are you sure about that number?? SAAMI spec for max COAL .45 Colt is 1.600"
This is one place where Unique (and all other powders) will care about the empty space in the case.

You have a Judge with a long cylinder so it will take .410 shells. So it will also fit longer than spec .45 Colt ammo. This can be a benefit if you are using heavier bullets than usual, (they are longer). But you're not, you're using a 230gr, and if you are seating them to 1.858" COAL then the bullet base is not as deep in the case as it is supposed to be.

This increases the internal volume of the case and that lowers the pressure (and velocity) of a given powder charge.

IMR 4227 is not a good powder for regular .45 Colt loads and not at all for light loads.

[The Old Salt]

44 AMP;
The 1.858 COL was a dyslectic typo! For the 230g loading my manual specifies a COL of 1.585 which is what I used.

I’ve been getting responses on several forums about the properties of 4227. That’s the beauty of forums, shared knowledge. I picked up the 4227 by accident when shopping one day couple yrs back. Been trying to find something to load with it. But it looks like 45LC & 410’s for a Judge aren’t it.

Thx to all for sharing!

[Unclenick]

The other guys have covered it. You can use 4227's in some magnum handgun loads, but at 45 Colt pressures it won't light up or burn consistently. The long "freebore" in your cylinder will drop pressure further. Trailboss will fill your case well and it burns cleaner than any other powder I've ever used, so it should be a good choice.

[T. O'Heir]

"...Cowboy loading is 8.5g..." That 8.5 grains of Unique is the Max load for a cast 230. 9.0 grains is over MAX. And it doesn't need to "fill the case".
No velocity data for short barrels on any on-line site either. Hodgdon tested with a 7.25" barrel, so there's no comparison for velocities.
IMR4227 and H4227 are in the middle on the burn rate chart. No .45 Colt data for either on Hodgdon's site.

[The Old Salt]

Roger on the IVs for short barrels. Thats why I am also shooting American Eagle factory loads (225g semi jacketed cowboy action loads, box IV 860) as a comparison. They chrono (795 to 827) which less than box specs. I attribute that to both long free bore in cylinder and short barrel.

Especially because of the long cylinder free bore, pressures should be significantly reduced. The 8.2g Unique loads I fired only produced Ave IVs of 380 fps. With light recoil compared to the Am Eagle loads. Moving up to 8.5 won’t gain much more.

I believe the large free bore has a significant impact. Years ago I had a Ruger Super Red in 454. The load that would produce 1650 fps in a Freedom Arms revolver, only produced 1350 fps in my Ruger. Why? Ruger cuts their cylinders chambers different which allows for pressure to bleed off. I believe the long free bore of the Judge has the same effect. Thoughts gentlemen?

[1100 tac]

It has been my experience that IMR4227 needs a mag primer to get good ignition. Even then there will be unburned powder, especially with a low charge like that.

Don't use wads unless a later recipe calls for them.

[44 AMP]

That 8.5 grains of Unique is the Max load for a cast 230. 9.0 grains is over MAX.

According to some. I have data that lists over 10gr as max for a 250gr slug. And, tested in a Colt SAA, not a Ruger!

[Old 454]

Exactly... use a magnum primer to light up heavy loads of slow burning powder....

[Charlie98]

I use IMR4227 a lot in my .41 Magnums... both pistol and rifle (20" barreled Marlin.) It is really too slow to be optimum in shorter pistols barrels, but works very well in the rifle barrel.

Recently, I gave it a test drive in the 5.5" Ruger .45 Colt Vaquero... just to see. It left a bunch of unburned junk in the barrel, which wasn't surprising. My normal load for the .45 Colt is Unique... and will remain so.

I would caution you against using any sort of filler or wad in your handloads. In your case, with the .45 Colt, Unique has relatively little issues with case position, and isn't necessary in any event.

I do NOT agree that IMR4227 needs a magnum primer, in fact, I recommend you don't do so. At the same time I test drove those .45 Colt loads, I also did a workup with IMR4227 and 3 types of primers in the .41 with IMR4227... CCI standard primers, WLP (standard or magnum,) and Federal #155 (magnum) primers. The standard CCI's turned in the lowest SD, the Federals the highest. Velocity between the 3 were, basically, the same... and this was out of the 20" Marlin barrel. This is not Gospel, I suggest you do your own testing. I do suggest, however, magnum primers for W296/H110, as suggested by the manufacturer.

IMR 4227 is not a good powder for regular .45 Colt loads and not at all for light loads.

I agree. The reason I gave it a test drive was an article I read (I don't remember who...) on the .45 Colt and how IMR4227 was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Maybe in longer barreled pistols, and certainly a rifle barrel, but not so much in shorter stuff. The caveat to that might be very heavy (300grn) bullets and such, but I'm not going there.