SPP - Which is generally Better Wolf or S&B

Spur0701 · December 31, 2017, 04:59 PM

So I ran out of small pistol primers a few weeks ago and everything everywhere seemed to be at least $28 per K and while at a gun show I ran across Georgia Arms selling Wolf SPP for $22 per K so I picked up 10K. Shortly after that Cabela's put S&B primers on sale for less than $20, which ended up way less using discount codes and gift cards. So generally which are better and which should I stash for a rainy day and which should I use first, the Wolf or S&B......any experiences? I've never used Wolf but I notice that S&B seem to be flatter and don't flip as well as Winchester's in the primer flipper tray.

NoSecondBest · December 31, 2017, 05:14 PM

They're all good. I've used every brand out there and I can't say that one is noticeably better than another after almost fifty years of loading. I've tested them all for grouping and in a handgun it makes no difference. In a rifle it can make a difference, and if you're an accuracy nut (I am) I use the one I got the most accurate load with. That being said, sometimes I get the best load with brand B over brand A and sometimes the opposite.

Average Joe · December 31, 2017, 05:19 PM

I used them all, no noticeable difference at all.

**Unclenick** · December 31, 2017, 05:46 PM

These days, except in benchrest competitions, an accurate match rifle is a half-moa gun. An accurate match pistol is a 4 moa gun. You just don't see primer differences at the pistol level of precision.

The reason for the above is that errors that contribute to group diameters don't add directly. The odds of a second random error source adding to another random error source in the exact same direction away from the mean POI at any given shot are small, yet it would have to do that on every shot for the error to add directly. It works out that radial standard deviation of group sizes add as the square root of the sum of the squares of the errors different sources make in isolation. So, if a bad primer choice made a 1/4 moa error in what was normally a bughole load for a benchrest gun, it would make a 0.5 moa load for a match rifle into a 0.56 moa load when added to the existing 0.5" error (√(0.5²+0.25²)=0.559). It's not a big change, but you can measure it with a large enough shot sample size. If I add that 0.25" error source to a 4 moa group, it becomes a 4.008" group, and would require test group shot counts in the thousands of rounds to be sure it was a real difference, and thus, it is invisible to us for all practical purposes.

Nick_C_S · December 31, 2017, 07:52 PM

. . . ^^ Did everybody get that? There will be a test later

.

Actually, it was an informative read and I basically followed it.

std7mag · December 31, 2017, 08:02 PM

No clue, use Fed or CCI myself.

Tsquared · December 31, 2017, 08:18 PM

Wolf is made by Tula. I have had more problems with products from Tula than everything else combined. I will never again knowingly buy any Tula product.

My primer choices have been Winchester, CCI, and most recently S&B (the past 2 years). Cabella's had the S&B primers on sale for $19 recently.

Shotgun Slim · December 31, 2017, 08:30 PM

I have used many thousands of both brands in SPP and had no problems with either. In my opinion,seat of the pants only, I think the S&B primers are maybe a little more consistent but I can live with either one. I used to be a CCI snob until times got hard(shortages,remember?). Now when you can buy S&B from Cabelas $19.99 it makes the "usual" brands looked terribly overpriced.

Master Blaster · January 1, 2018, 01:58 AM

Tula primers tend to be at the hard end of the scale. So your minimally sprung S&W revolver may go click once in a while with the tulas. I also find they require more effort to seat than winchester, federal, or cci primers.

80viking · January 1, 2018, 03:20 AM

I had lots of hangfires and misfires from a brick of wolf srp's that I bought during the last primer shortage.
Never again.

SauerGrapes · January 1, 2018, 06:59 AM

Have only used CCI and Winchester.
I just bought some S&B primers. {LPP} WHY ARE THEY SO TIGHT GOING IN???

NoSecondBest · January 1, 2018, 09:24 AM

Back at the last primer shortage I bought around 20K of Tula (Wolf) primers and haven't had even one problem with them. I do seat them by hand though, and not at the press. I do that with almost all my ammo. I have heard reports of people having problems seating them though and think it's probably how they're seating them as opposed to them being a "bad" primer. My light trigger revolvers haven't had any problems with them yet.

rodfac · January 1, 2018, 09:09 PM

Great post UncleNick...I finally understand the math. For the record, I use Winchester primers almost exclusively, with rare excursions into Federals for their thinner (read easier to indent) cups. Rod

December 31, 2017, 04:59 PM	#1
Spur0701 Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2005 Posts: 208	SPP - Which is generally Better Wolf or S&B So I ran out of small pistol primers a few weeks ago and everything everywhere seemed to be at least $28 per K and while at a gun show I ran across Georgia Arms selling Wolf SPP for $22 per K so I picked up 10K. Shortly after that Cabela's put S&B primers on sale for less than $20, which ended up way less using discount codes and gift cards. So generally which are better and which should I stash for a rainy day and which should I use first, the Wolf or S&B......any experiences? I've never used Wolf but I notice that S&B seem to be flatter and don't flip as well as Winchester's in the primer flipper tray.

December 31, 2017, 05:46 PM	#4
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,743	These days, except in benchrest competitions, an accurate match rifle is a half-moa gun. An accurate match pistol is a 4 moa gun. You just don't see primer differences at the pistol level of precision. The reason for the above is that errors that contribute to group diameters don't add directly. The odds of a second random error source adding to another random error source in the exact same direction away from the mean POI at any given shot are small, yet it would have to do that on every shot for the error to add directly. It works out that radial standard deviation of group sizes add as the square root of the sum of the squares of the errors different sources make in isolation. So, if a bad primer choice made a 1/4 moa error in what was normally a bughole load for a benchrest gun, it would make a 0.5 moa load for a match rifle into a 0.56 moa load when added to the existing 0.5" error (√(0.5²+0.25²)=0.559). It's not a big change, but you can measure it with a large enough shot sample size. If I add that 0.25" error source to a 4 moa group, it becomes a 4.008" group, and would require test group shot counts in the thousands of rounds to be sure it was a real difference, and thus, it is invisible to us for all practical purposes. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 31, 2017, 07:52 PM	#5
Nick_C_S Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2013 Location: Idaho Posts: 5,619	. . . ^^ Did everybody get that? There will be a test later . Actually, it was an informative read and I basically followed it. __________________ Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association

January 1, 2018, 09:09 PM	#13
rodfac Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,657	Great post UncleNick...I finally understand the math. For the record, I use Winchester primers almost exclusively, with rare excursions into Federals for their thinner (read easier to indent) cups. Rod __________________ Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73.

December 31, 2017, 05:14 PM	#2
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	They're all good. I've used every brand out there and I can't say that one is noticeably better than another after almost fifty years of loading. I've tested them all for grouping and in a handgun it makes no difference. In a rifle it can make a difference, and if you're an accuracy nut (I am) I use the one I got the most accurate load with. That being said, sometimes I get the best load with brand B over brand A and sometimes the opposite.

December 31, 2017, 05:19 PM	#3
Average Joe Senior Member Join Date: August 29, 2005 Location: Central Florida Posts: 1,332	I used them all, no noticeable difference at all.

December 31, 2017, 08:02 PM	#6
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,611	No clue, use Fed or CCI myself.

December 31, 2017, 08:18 PM	#7
Tsquared Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2016 Location: NE Atlanta Posts: 337	Wolf is made by Tula. I have had more problems with products from Tula than everything else combined. I will never again knowingly buy any Tula product. My primer choices have been Winchester, CCI, and most recently S&B (the past 2 years). Cabella's had the S&B primers on sale for $19 recently.

December 31, 2017, 08:30 PM	#8
Shotgun Slim Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2014 Location: Va Posts: 298	I have used many thousands of both brands in SPP and had no problems with either. In my opinion,seat of the pants only, I think the S&B primers are maybe a little more consistent but I can live with either one. I used to be a CCI snob until times got hard(shortages,remember?). Now when you can buy S&B from Cabelas $19.99 it makes the "usual" brands looked terribly overpriced.

January 1, 2018, 01:58 AM	#9
Master Blaster Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 1999 Location: One of the original 13 Colonies Posts: 2,281	Tula primers tend to be at the hard end of the scale. So your minimally sprung S&W revolver may go click once in a while with the tulas. I also find they require more effort to seat than winchester, federal, or cci primers.

January 1, 2018, 03:20 AM	#10
80viking Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2009 Location: The Peoples Republic of Massac Posts: 333	I had lots of hangfires and misfires from a brick of wolf srp's that I bought during the last primer shortage. Never again.

January 1, 2018, 06:59 AM	#11
SauerGrapes Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2009 Location: S.E.PA. Posts: 920	Have only used CCI and Winchester. I just bought some S&B primers. {LPP} WHY ARE THEY SO TIGHT GOING IN???

January 1, 2018, 09:24 AM	#12
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	Back at the last primer shortage I bought around 20K of Tula (Wolf) primers and haven't had even one problem with them. I do seat them by hand though, and not at the press. I do that with almost all my ammo. I have heard reports of people having problems seating them though and think it's probably how they're seating them as opposed to them being a "bad" primer. My light trigger revolvers haven't had any problems with them yet.