Stupid Question for Reloaders

[Austin1776]

Kind sirs, enlighten an ignorant person.

If/when I purchase 7.62 x 51 ammo that has "Berdan" primers why does that make it non-reloadable? Is it impossible to use the brass casings at all to reload? Or is it only the primer?

What the heck is a "Berdan" primer anyway and why are they used?

I found some for less than .50 cents a round and that's an attractive price point, but if I can't sell the brass cases to reloaders, as I do with other ammo, that may make it not worth it to me.

Yes, yes, I know I should reload.

Thanks for any advice here.

[rclark]

duckduckgo.com or google.com is your friend ...

http://ammo.com/primer-type/berdan
http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/ber...imensions.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center...#Berdan_primer

{Edit: please see board policy on posting copyrighted materials. If you have permission to use them or if you own them, then please say so in the text or have it indicated on the images.}

And more when you search,

[xandi]

Iv heard of ppl reloading with berdan primes, It requires differnet tools to deprime, using hydralic pressure I thinks.
The kicker would be getting berdsn primers. Iv only ever seen normal boxer primers

[dahermit]

As long as Boxer primed 7.62 x 51 ammo/casings are available, it is not worth the effort to attempt to reload Berdan cases. The conventional wisdom has always been, do not mess with reloading Berdan cases unless it was/is for some exotic European rifle that is chambered for obsolete ammunition. For something as common as the 7.62 x 51, it makes no sense whatsoever.

[RJay]

The US adopted the English designed Boxer system ( single flash hole ), ;and Europe adopted the American designed Berdan system ( double flash hole ); Go figure

[44 AMP]

Google (and others) promised the 'information super highway". My experience is they delivered the "information tar pit". Unless you pretty much already know what you are looking for, AND how to ask for it, you get days worth of reading to find the single tidbit you're looking for,

Usually.

The Boxer primer system (invented by an Englishman) uses a single central flashhole, meaning it is simple to poke out the fired primer with a decapping pin. All the primer components are part of the primer.

The Berdan system (invented by an American) uses two (sometimes 3) small flash holes, spaced around the anvil, which is part of the primer pocket of the case.

There is (or was) a tool for prying out spent Berdan primers. They can also be driven out with hydraulic pressure. I have even seen a device that fires a boxer primer to drive out the Berdan primer. These do work, BUT unless you have the right Berdan primer to re-install, (and those are simply not ordinarily available in the US) the point is moot.

Berdan primed 7.62x51mm NATO ammo, once fired, is scrap brass. Not fit for the reloader, only for the recycler. Think of it as a bigger case .22 rimfire. Once fired, its only good for salvage.

[briandg]

Hey, Austin, let me help you out here. Wikipedia is the greatest thing in the world. There used to be issues with nonsense being posted, but now the people who do the editing are so diligent that it's darned near impossible to find faked information. I have pretty much abandoned a whole lot of my books, since the information is available in less time than it would take just to climb the stairs to read it.

Berdan primers are essentially reloadable. There is a claw tool that can be used to pull out the old primer, and a new cap is installed. There is no reason at all to go to the trouble, unless you just honestly can't find regular brass. It takes longer, may not even be worth the time.

I'm sure that if you look very carefully, you can find the primers, but I can't find any for sale.

[Austin1776]

Aside for the stupid snark responses, I appreciate the helpful information. It always amuses me that a person posts a question that is gun and ammo related on a gun and ammo forum and sure as God made little green apples, a keyboard commando concern trolls about Google.

Good stuff, the graphic, and re. Wikipedia...I have come to regard it as fairly reliable and I particularly like using it to check sources, etc.

Have a good Sunday all.

[Jim Watson]

Seems to be covered.
I helped a friend load .450 BPE in Kynoch Berdan cases. He found the primers and we dug out the old and seated the new. Not too bad for an express rifle not being fired a whole lot, but you sure would not want to go to the trouble for a common autorifle caliber.
I gave him some Boxer primed BELL brass for Christmas.

[F. Guffey]

As long as Boxer primed 7.62 x 51 ammo/casings are available, it is not worth the effort to attempt to reload Berdan cases. The conventional wisdom has always been, do not mess with reloading Berdan cases unless it was/is for some exotic European rifle that is chambered for obsolete ammunition. For something as common as the 7.62 x 51, it makes no sense whatsoever

It has to do with how serious a reloader is abut reloading. I have purchased Berdan ammo for $4.70 for 70 rounds (7mm57) with no intensions of shooting the corrosive ammo. My plan was to pull the bullets and save the powder and bullets. I purchases thousands of 30/06 surplus NM LC cases for as little as 7 cents each and no more than 10 cants each I formed the 30/06 cases to 308W.. My forming die was paid before in 2 hours and after that there was no way a 308W case could cost me more than 10 cents each.

Again, my favorite forming die is the 308 W and my second most favorite is the 243W forming die.

F. Guffey

[mikld]

Auarin1776, "Normally" when one searches on google (or the like) true facts are found, from many sources. When one posts a question on a forum 95% of the answers are opinions and many "old wives tales" are included. Even though this is an ammo/gun related forum, more, factual info is available, quicker, on one of the search engines. This is not to demean forum members, just the way it is.

Besides, the question of Berdan vs. Boxer primers is a very basic, "Reloading 101" type ammunition question, showing the OP did very little if any research prior to asking he question. But don't run way, stick around and check the stickies, learn the search function and you'll surely learn a lot...

[T. O'Heir]

"...What the heck is a "Berdan" primer..." All about how the thing is ignited. A Berdan primer has its anvil as part of the primer pocket. A Boxer has it in the primer itself. And despite the nonsense you see on-line, there's no converting Berdan to Boxer either.
Reloading Berdan really is not worth the extra time and effort it requires. Especially 7.62NATO. (The RCBS Berdan decapping tool runs about $65. Otherwise it's a big mess using water, a dowel and a hammer.) And that's if you can find new Berdan primers of the correct size. No such thing as Large and Small rifle Berdan primers. Berdan primed cases do make good and interesting drawer pulls though.
"...Wikipedia is the greatest thing in the world..." No it isn't. Anybody with internet access can post anything they want there.

[Austin1776]

Thanks again for the good information...I'll just keep the brass and sell it for scrap when I get a five gallon bucket full of the stuff. Which reminds me...I have one full now and just need to get it to the scrap yard.

[TailGator]

Nobody said this explicitly, and since you said you don't reload, you may not know: the spent primer of a boxer-primed case is popped out by a pin that runs through the flash hole itself. It's just stupid easy to do that, with very simple machinery, compared to the Berdan arrangement.

[briandg]

T o here, let's not perpetuate that old, outdated information. Wikipedia has become one of the most reliable and accurate information sources available, as well as having an absolutely amazing depth of information.

No, people can't just go to the page and post nonsense. Not anymore. A person must have an account, and these pages are monitored by dozens of people who diligently watch the pages for bogus entries. When a troll makes a phony post his access is banned. If two people disagree in information it goes to a "committee" that decides which entry is more likely to be true.

The information that is available at Wikipedia,thanks to tens of thousands of people who actually officially monitor those pages, is almost absolutely reliable.

So far,I don't recall ever taking information from a Wikipedia article and having it not be accurate when I checked it with other sources.

Do you have any current examples?

[RC20]

I think Wikipedia for the most part gets the basics, some of the in depth is off.

So a good start

Aside for the stupid snark responses, I appreciate the helpful information. It always amuses me that a person posts a question that is gun and ammo related on a gun and ammo forum and sure as God made little green apples, a keyboard commando concern trolls about Google.

Good stuff, the graphic, and re. Wikipedia...I have come to regard it as fairly reliable and I particularly like using it to check sources, etc.

Have a good Sunday all.

And you have it right. You came to the right place and those who don't want to bother should just keep their fingers off the keyboard.

And to keep it straight, I think of it the non use ones as a BURDON on my reloading, until I came up with that I knew what the difference was but could not tell you which was which!

[JeepHammer]

Hiram Berdan had a real good design for fulminate of mercury primers back in the 1860s,
Made black powder cartridges of the time ignite MUCH more reliably.
(Hiram Berdan of Berdan's Sharps Shooters fame during the American 'Civil' War)

Although there are TONS of urban myth stories,
Sharps mass produced long range, BREACH LOADING, PAPER CARTRIDGE rifles at the time of the war,
Long brass rifle cartridges were new, and under powered, along with being unreliable.
Hiram Berdan worked with the department of the army & Sharps to develop a reliable metallic cartridge for long range rifles.

Hiram Berdan, Sharps (and others) are directly responsible for the long, drawn case for rifles (instead of cast, punched or turned),
They are responsible for using brass instead of copper, tin or zinc cases,
They are responsible for a separate pocket for primers instead of priming materials cast into case directly (rim fire),
The first varnish sealed cartridges (all weather) are a Berdan/Sharps invention.
The modern brass cartridge case we know now is a direct result of Berdan & Sharps.

Now, keep in mind that the innovations were worked out in advance, making Berdan's Sharps Shooters THE most effective, all weather, modern metallic cartridge units in history.
There wasn't any 'Experimentation' here, these guys were educated in industral processes, looked at ALL conditions & viarables the troops would be working under, and addressed those issues in advance.

The Army idiots later tried copper case cartridges (cheaper), which separated in the chambers rendering the rifle useless in battle, and screwed a bunch of other stuff up...

----

The Berdan ignition system was devised for black powder, which drew moisture & liked to clog flash holes.
More flash holes, better chance of igniting the powder charge.

Two (or three) off-set flash holes (off-set from center line) simply don't lend themselves well to common Up & Down stright line reloading equipment.
'Boxer' or 'Stright' primed cases are the easiest to reload with commonly available equipment.

Today, with powder that has a moisture seal on the grains, and MUCH hotter primer materials, we don't have a need for the duplicated flash holes between primer pocket & case powder cavity, so it's not used much anymore other than countries that simply use it because of tradition, since it adds nothing to reliability of ignition with modern primers & powder.

[Jim Watson]

From what I can find, it took a long time for Mr Berdan to make himself heard.

It looks like all Frankford and Springfield made .50-70 was inside primed, originally Martin bar primers, then mostly Benet cup primers from 1870 to 1882. Apparently they kept some of the old guns for at least nine years.

Arsenal .45-70 started with Benet inside primers 1873 and seen as late as 1882, but there were externally primed cartridges as early as 1879, some Berdan, some Boxer. The 1882 and later .450-70-500 seems to have been all Boxer.

Commercial ammo was well ahead of the Army, with external priming in the early 1870s.

[Mobuck]

Most reloading data manuals explain this in plain English. Some even have pictures.
It's not that it's impossible to reload berdan primed cases but it IS a royal PITA.

[briandg]

More than a royal pita. It's like a biblical level pita. You can resize the case and deprive in a matter of seconds with boxer. Berdan however, I've heard that each shell may take as long as 2-3 minutes unless everything is working just perfectly. It can take even longer if you're as clumsy as I am.

[Mike Irwin]

"The Army idiots later tried copper case cartridges (cheaper), which separated in the chambers rendering the rifle useless in battle, and screwed a bunch of other stuff up..."

Jeep, your characterization of the Army's reason for using copper instead of brass in its early rifle cartridge is wrong.

It was a matter of the manufacturing capabilities of the day.

Forming brass, which is much harder than copper, into suitable length rifle cases through the deep draw process was still being developed in the years just after the Civil War.

Simply put, it wasn't reliably possible to do so using brass until the middle to 1870s, and it wasn't developed into a flawless process until the 1880s.

During the Civil War cartridges for the Gallagher carbine were made from brass. But, because of the same issue, the ability to draw the cases, Gallagher cases were made by "spinning" them to length on a lathe. Basically, the same process as forming a clay pot.

Spinning works, but it's VERY slow and quite inefficient.

Copper is more than strong enough to serve as a rifle cartridge loaded with black powder.

The true failure point with the rifles of the day wasn't simply that the case was copper, it was a combination of the case, the blackpowder fouling, and the completely deficient design of the extractor on early trapdoor model conversions. The extractor had such a tiny bearing surface on the cartridge rim that it might as well have been a knife edge.

It wasn't until a Miller-type extractor was adopted on the Model 1868 Trapdoor that reliable extraction of fired cartridges became a more sure (but not absolute) thing.

Interestingly, the developer of the Miller extractor apparently sued the US government over patent infringement, claiming that the ordnance dept. simply copied his design.

Not sure how it worked out in the end, but given that the Ordnance Dept. copied a number of patented designs from a number of inventors around this time, they probably did.

To bring this full circle, Hiram Berdan's widow sued the government, and won, over a patent infringement issue relating to his designs being used in the Trapdoors without compensation.

[Mike Irwin]

Modern European Berdan primers are also almost universally metric.

[briandg]

Mike, that is all correct. She has been obsessively reading about the battles..she saw the battlefield, and unlike other people, she came home marked forever. we saw Shiloh and were rendered speechless. Gatlinburg? I've seen Gettysburg and Appomattox, the federal cemetery. Forgive me for not remembering, I had a brain tumor, and memory centers were injured.

To the point, I believe that it was renos command that had men assigned to ram rod stuck cartridges out and reload, then hand them back. One of the battles at Gettysburg had men reloading and passing them back, they had a huge surplus of rifles. Bob was apparently one of the worst screw ups in history.

[Mike Irwin]

Brian,

The standard issue weapon of the American Civil War, on both sides, was a rifled musket muzzleloader.

Some troops did have cartridge-firing weapons (either two part cartridges, like the Smith, Gallagher, or Burnside carbines), or a self-contained rimfire like the Spencer.

While those firearms did occasionally have sticky extraction issues related to fouling and the early cartridges, as far as I know none of them had an extractor design of the kind found on the early Trapdoors.

Perhaps the best known incident in which the deficiencies of the early extractor design showed up was the Battle of Beecher Island in 1868.

The unit that fought at Beecher Island was a hybrid, a number of US Army soldiers armed with conversion trapdoors, probably model 1866s or 1867s, but primarily a group of recruited frontiersmen/scouts (analagous to a militia), who were armed with Spencer repeating rifles.

There were numerous reports of the shells sticking in the chambers of the Trapdoors with the tiny extractor ripping through the cartridge rims, but the Spencers performed admirably and in fact provided the firepower needed to keep the unit from being utterly destroyed.

Remember, the US Army wasn't the only command to have issues with sticky cases in single shot rifles.

The British had numerous issues with their Martini-Henry rifles becoming extremely difficult to operate once they got hot and the chambers became fouled.

They were using composite cases for the .577-.450 consisting of an iron washer rim, a brass cup head and a brass foil and paper body, all held together with a primer that acted like a rivet.

When the case stuck in the chamber, the response by many soldiers was to yank the action lever very hard and very fast.

That didn't cause the extractor to tear through the case rim (iron washer), it served to rip the case head off at the primer rivet, leaving the foil and paper case body in the chamber.

To solve this issue, the British adopted a slightly different case design that proved to be more durable, apparently issued a tool that could be used to quickly and roughly clear fouling out of the chamber, and most importantly, adopted the Long Lever Pattern Martini-Henry, which allowed greater extraction power and did away with the need to yank the lever hard and fast.

It wasn't long, however, until brass drawing techniques allowed the adoption and issue of all-brass cases.

[Jim Watson]

I don't recall how long it took them to catch on, but the Army started issuing broken cartridge extractors before they "modernized" to brass cases.


There are youtubes out there on how to convert the good quality but Berdan primed 7.5 Swiss cases to Boxer. Kind of a kluge, with the anvil gone, the primer pocket is just slightly larger than .210" so the process includes peening the edge of the pocket to hold a Large Rifle primer.

Trivia: Norma had "Re" in the headstamp for Reloadable back when Boxer primers were unusual in European ammo.