Reloading with smokeless powder

Doc Holliday · April 17, 2017, 03:44 PM

I like small convenient loads for plinking.
I use 20 gr. by vol. Pyrodex with a .451 lead ball in .45 colt brass. I don't use wonder wads as my ball shaves perfectly.
Can I use the same size ball and brass but with say 5 gr by weight of smokeless instead of Pyrodex, with a wad or two on top of the powder to not smash the ball on the powder like I have to do with Pyrodex?

Chainsaw. · April 17, 2017, 04:07 PM

I have no idea on what charge or what powder you will need, maybe trail boss, but you shouldnt need any wads under the ball. Fortunecookie45lc on you tube experimented with round balls in brass cases with good results.

Whats the weight of your balls?

That felt weird to type.

egd · April 17, 2017, 04:19 PM

OK, I just couldn't resist...

"What's the weight of your balls?"
Depends on who's holding them!

Doc Holliday · April 17, 2017, 05:01 PM

Speer .451 balls weigh 5 grams each.
I'm used to reloading with Pyrodex and mashing the ball down on the powder.
If I'm not supposed to mash it down on smokeless powder, what do I do?
Would it HURT to use wads to form a base for the ball since I'm not crimping because the ball fits tight?
Or just put in the smokeless powder and leave space between it and the ball, which I don't have to push all the way in because it fits tight and even shaves.
Pyrodex doesn't need open space inside, but does smokeless need space between itself and the bullet?
Obviously I don't yet know how to use smokeless but am tired of the mess, fouling and cleanup required from Pyrodex and black powder.
Any understanding reply will be appreciated.
And I don't want to blow up my gun so would 5 gr. by weight of smokeless be roughly similar to 20 gr. by volume of Pyrodex?

Chainsaw. · April 17, 2017, 05:26 PM

5 grams equal 77 grains, that a pretty light bullet. You'll need to figure out a good charge weight for the powder you pick, Ill again recommend trail boss being it is a bulky powder which means it will fill the case well, and it can be run at low velocities. Perhaps someome with the quickload softwear can do the math on a good charge weight.

No, do not run wads, you will be giving the powder less space to burn which ups the pressure to an unknown and possibly unsave pressure.

There are several fine folks here who have forgotten way more about reloading than I know and Im sure they will be along sortly.

Doc Holliday · April 17, 2017, 05:32 PM

Thanks. Smokeless needing "space to burn" is very helpful to understanding how it works.

SHR970 · April 17, 2017, 06:48 PM

Sorry Doc but a 451 Speer round ball weighs 138 gr. Try 9 grams. 000Buck weighs close to 5 grams / 70 grains.

Due to the case size you can use 5 grains of a fast powder but would probably want to use some dacron filler to hold the powder near the primer for a good burn.

Jim Watson · April 17, 2017, 07:02 PM

5 grams is not correct.
The Speer .451" ball weighs 138 grains, about 9 grammes if you must speak French.

Some older Speer manuals showed round balls in .45 LC but all I have left is No 12 and it does not include such novelties. I THINK they recommended the 141 grain .454" ball. I THINK they seated them at the case mouth with a crimp at the "equator" but I am not certain and am not making recommendations without hard information.

I looked around for you and found a thread at:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...or-the-45-Colt

kraigwy · April 18, 2017, 09:42 AM

with light loads you are not going to be consistent with lots of space in the case.

Is all the powder at the rear of the case setting on the flash hole, or is it laid evenly along the bottom of the case when the gun is extended to be ready to fire, or is it all down by the bullet?

Consistency is accuracy for the most part. When I'm loading gallery loads (or super light loads I put a veg. fiber wad over the powder to hold it in the same spot all the time.

Of course this is more critical in rifles, but it works the same way in larger pistol cases like the 45 LC, 44s, or even 38s.

Doc Holliday · April 18, 2017, 09:54 AM

Much obliged for the input. Now I have lots to work with. I'll get back here in due time with results.

Doc.

**44 AMP** · April 18, 2017, 01:12 PM

Speer #11 (4th printing mar 1991)

.45 COLT
Colt Single Action
5.5" barrel
1-16" twist
W-W cases
CCI 300 primer

.454" dia. Speer 141gr ROUND BALL

(only one load listed for each powder)
powder amt MV
SR4756 5.0gr 565fps
SR7625 4.5gr 556fps
Unique 4.5gr 632fps
231 4.0gr 544fps
700X 4.0gr 566fps
Bullseye 3.2gr 553fps
Red Dot 3.2gr 568fps

No instruction are given on how to seat the ball, just the load data.

I am providing this information for reference ONLY.

T. O'Heir · April 18, 2017, 01:35 PM

A .451" lead ball in .45 Colt is too small. Not by much, but .45 Colt uses a .452" bullet. And round balls fly like bricks. Even out of a rifled barrel.
And forget about anything metric. Metric only applies to reloading in Europe. Isn't always French either. At one time, every European country had their own flavour of metric. S'why they were always fighting each other. snicker.

Hammerhead · April 19, 2017, 01:03 AM

My 45 Colt load was a.454" Hornady ball over 3 grains Bullseye. First seated on the ball, then later I seated them below the case mouth. The deeper you seat them the more consistent they are.

rodfac · April 19, 2017, 09:12 AM

Quote:

My 45 Colt load was a.454" Hornady ball over 3 grains Bullseye. First seated on the ball, then later I seated them below the case mouth. The deeper you seat them the more consistent they are.

This is pretty good advice, Doc. I've used the same ball dia. (0.454") with 4 gr of Win 231 for 50' target practice. Groups run to about 2" at 50' if I'm having a good eyes day. Clean up is easier than BP too.

I seat the ball below the case mouth, and run a greasy thumb of lube over the exposed case mouth lips. Helps to lube the bbl. Black powder "bumps" up the size of the pure lead ball much better than smokeless as you know, so I've always used the bigger dia. HTH's Rod

Hammerhead · April 21, 2017, 07:30 PM

I use a .44 mag RCBS neck expander to seat the balls deep. The friction in the case was enough to keep them in place during recoil for me, but check as you fire to make sure they're not pulling, especially with heavier charges.

Avoid wads with round balls. I tried fiber wads to hold the powder back, but found one in the bore of my carbine after a shot.

I coat them and and most other lead bullets with liquid alox. Makes clean up a breeze. Patches and mineral spirits is usually all it takes when using the magic liquid.

random guy · April 21, 2017, 08:01 PM

I use a very small charge of Bullseye in my .44 roundball loads (from my old Speer manual). I don't know how consistent or accurate they really are but they are not wildly INaccurate.

We've shot close range steel with them and with muffs on, about all you hear is the hammer falling and the steel ringing. Kind of like a giant airgun.

It's the only live ammo I've ever fired in the house. Possum in the basement DRT with a neck shot. Bled like the proverbial pig.

In .45 Colt, Speer calls for:

.454 roundball and 3.2 gr of Bullseye among several other powders. Please verify before using.

Jim Watson is correct. Speer recommends just crimping the case mouth over the ball. Deep seating sounds interesting but using fast powders, something to do with care.

g.willikers · April 22, 2017, 11:43 AM

BP shooters have probably been tempted to substitute more readily available smokeless powder for black powder.
Myself included.
But everything I've read on the subject has convinced me it's a really bad idea.
The characteristics of the two are too different to reliably trust.
Just a thought.

April 17, 2017, 04:07 PM	#2
Chainsaw. Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2015 Location: Issaquah WA. Its a dry rain. Posts: 1,774	I have no idea on what charge or what powder you will need, maybe trail boss, but you shouldnt need any wads under the ball. Fortunecookie45lc on you tube experimented with round balls in brass cases with good results. Whats the weight of your balls? That felt weird to type. __________________ Just shoot the damn thing.

April 17, 2017, 05:01 PM	#4
Doc Holliday Junior Member Join Date: March 25, 2009 Location: Tombstone Posts: 7	Still writing Speer .451 balls weigh 5 grams each. I'm used to reloading with Pyrodex and mashing the ball down on the powder. If I'm not supposed to mash it down on smokeless powder, what do I do? Would it HURT to use wads to form a base for the ball since I'm not crimping because the ball fits tight? Or just put in the smokeless powder and leave space between it and the ball, which I don't have to push all the way in because it fits tight and even shaves. Pyrodex doesn't need open space inside, but does smokeless need space between itself and the bullet? Obviously I don't yet know how to use smokeless but am tired of the mess, fouling and cleanup required from Pyrodex and black powder. Any understanding reply will be appreciated. And I don't want to blow up my gun so would 5 gr. by weight of smokeless be roughly similar to 20 gr. by volume of Pyrodex?

April 17, 2017, 05:26 PM	#5
Chainsaw. Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2015 Location: Issaquah WA. Its a dry rain. Posts: 1,774	5 grams equal 77 grains, that a pretty light bullet. You'll need to figure out a good charge weight for the powder you pick, Ill again recommend trail boss being it is a bulky powder which means it will fill the case well, and it can be run at low velocities. Perhaps someome with the quickload softwear can do the math on a good charge weight. No, do not run wads, you will be giving the powder less space to burn which ups the pressure to an unknown and possibly unsave pressure. There are several fine folks here who have forgotten way more about reloading than I know and Im sure they will be along sortly. __________________ Just shoot the damn thing.

April 17, 2017, 05:32 PM	#6
Doc Holliday Junior Member Join Date: March 25, 2009 Location: Tombstone Posts: 7	Still writing Thanks. Smokeless needing "space to burn" is very helpful to understanding how it works.

April 18, 2017, 09:54 AM	#10
Doc Holliday Junior Member Join Date: March 25, 2009 Location: Tombstone Posts: 7	Reloading with smokeless powder Much obliged for the input. Now I have lots to work with. I'll get back here in due time with results. Doc.

April 17, 2017, 03:44 PM	#1
Doc Holliday Junior Member Join Date: March 25, 2009 Location: Tombstone Posts: 7	Reloading with smokeless powder I like small convenient loads for plinking. I use 20 gr. by vol. Pyrodex with a .451 lead ball in .45 colt brass. I don't use wonder wads as my ball shaves perfectly. Can I use the same size ball and brass but with say 5 gr by weight of smokeless instead of Pyrodex, with a wad or two on top of the powder to not smash the ball on the powder like I have to do with Pyrodex?

April 17, 2017, 04:19 PM	#3
egd Member Join Date: April 15, 2016 Posts: 73	OK, I just couldn't resist... "What's the weight of your balls?" Depends on who's holding them!

April 17, 2017, 06:48 PM	#7
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	Sorry Doc but a 451 Speer round ball weighs 138 gr. Try 9 grams. 000Buck weighs close to 5 grams / 70 grains. Due to the case size you can use 5 grains of a fast powder but would probably want to use some dacron filler to hold the powder near the primer for a good burn.

April 17, 2017, 07:02 PM	#8
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 19,175	5 grams is not correct. The Speer .451" ball weighs 138 grains, about 9 grammes if you must speak French. Some older Speer manuals showed round balls in .45 LC but all I have left is No 12 and it does not include such novelties. I THINK they recommended the 141 grain .454" ball. I THINK they seated them at the case mouth with a crimp at the "equator" but I am not certain and am not making recommendations without hard information. I looked around for you and found a thread at: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...or-the-45-Colt

April 18, 2017, 09:42 AM	#9
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,060	with light loads you are not going to be consistent with lots of space in the case. Is all the powder at the rear of the case setting on the flash hole, or is it laid evenly along the bottom of the case when the gun is extended to be ready to fire, or is it all down by the bullet? Consistency is accuracy for the most part. When I'm loading gallery loads (or super light loads I put a veg. fiber wad over the powder to hold it in the same spot all the time. Of course this is more critical in rifles, but it works the same way in larger pistol cases like the 45 LC, 44s, or even 38s.

April 18, 2017, 01:12 PM	#11
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 30,477	Speer #11 (4th printing mar 1991) .45 COLT Colt Single Action 5.5" barrel 1-16" twist W-W cases CCI 300 primer .454" dia. Speer 141gr ROUND BALL (only one load listed for each powder) powder amt MV SR4756 5.0gr 565fps SR7625 4.5gr 556fps Unique 4.5gr 632fps 231 4.0gr 544fps 700X 4.0gr 566fps Bullseye 3.2gr 553fps Red Dot 3.2gr 568fps No instruction are given on how to seat the ball, just the load data. I am providing this information for reference ONLY. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

April 18, 2017, 01:35 PM	#12
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	A .451" lead ball in .45 Colt is too small. Not by much, but .45 Colt uses a .452" bullet. And round balls fly like bricks. Even out of a rifled barrel. And forget about anything metric. Metric only applies to reloading in Europe. Isn't always French either. At one time, every European country had their own flavour of metric. S'why they were always fighting each other. snicker.

April 19, 2017, 01:03 AM	#13
Hammerhead Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,432	My 45 Colt load was a.454" Hornady ball over 3 grains Bullseye. First seated on the ball, then later I seated them below the case mouth. The deeper you seat them the more consistent they are.

April 21, 2017, 07:30 PM	#15
Hammerhead Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,432	I use a .44 mag RCBS neck expander to seat the balls deep. The friction in the case was enough to keep them in place during recoil for me, but check as you fire to make sure they're not pulling, especially with heavier charges. Avoid wads with round balls. I tried fiber wads to hold the powder back, but found one in the bore of my carbine after a shot. I coat them and and most other lead bullets with liquid alox. Makes clean up a breeze. Patches and mineral spirits is usually all it takes when using the magic liquid.

April 21, 2017, 08:01 PM	#16
random guy Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2017 Posts: 272	I use a very small charge of Bullseye in my .44 roundball loads (from my old Speer manual). I don't know how consistent or accurate they really are but they are not wildly INaccurate. We've shot close range steel with them and with muffs on, about all you hear is the hammer falling and the steel ringing. Kind of like a giant airgun. It's the only live ammo I've ever fired in the house. Possum in the basement DRT with a neck shot. Bled like the proverbial pig. In .45 Colt, Speer calls for: .454 roundball and 3.2 gr of Bullseye among several other powders. Please verify before using. Jim Watson is correct. Speer recommends just crimping the case mouth over the ball. Deep seating sounds interesting but using fast powders, something to do with care. Last edited by random guy; April 21, 2017 at 08:11 PM.

April 22, 2017, 11:43 AM	#17
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	BP shooters have probably been tempted to substitute more readily available smokeless powder for black powder. Myself included. But everything I've read on the subject has convinced me it's a really bad idea. The characteristics of the two are too different to reliably trust. Just a thought.