New Guy Question on Plated (Berrys)

[Ben_Snow]

Hello Everyone, new kid on the block (both the forum and to reloading)--please be kind if I ask some dumb questions, would rather ask a dumb question then make a dumb mistake that could be painful. Did a thorough search through the forums to find an answer to my questions, and while I found bits and pieces of the answers, most answers were really old or intended for a different firearm.

I'll make it short and sweet (ok, not so short):

I have a Lee's Classic Turret Press (with the 4 die set). Will be reloading for my Blackhawk .357 w/6.5" barrel which is used exclusively for target shooting.

Right now am set up with the following consumables:

Powder: Unique
Primers: CCI SPP
Brass: (my own used brass)
Bullets: Berry's 158gr Plated FP

Concerned about two things, a safe load that will provide good accuracy, and producing a proper crimp.

1. Load Data is lacking for Berry's, one source says to use tables for Jacketed, another says use table for Lead ( ). Right now am going middle ground, will be using Unique @ 5.5-5.6 which should be well under the 1250FPS limit for plated. Does this sound like a proper load for the purpose? Is there a better powder choice, I read through a hundred posts and settled on Unique as the most favored (based on my own rough polling) for the Blackhawk & caliber?

2. The Lee Factory Crimp Die (that came with my set) supposedly produces a roll crimp (although Lee claims is also produces a slight taper). I've read that roll crimps and non-cannelured plated bullets can cause problems if crimped 'too' hard. I've ordered the .38sp Lee Taper Crimp just in case (its only $12). Need some advice, is the roll crimp sufficient, and how do I judge if the bullet too snug or too loose? I don't want to crack the plating, but don't want it so loose that it affects accuracy (among other problems).

I sent a support ticket to Lee with that same question, they told me to call Berry's. I called Berry's, they told me to contact Lee .

Appreciate any and all advice. Use to help my brother reload and cast bullets in the basement when I was 8 years old, I'm in my 50's now and forgotten everything I learned!

[Rangerrich99]

Are you going to shoot .357 mag level rounds or .38 spl?

With .38 spl you probably won't need to crimp anymore than just enough to remove the bell from the expander die. However, the more experienced reloaders here will give you a more detailed answer.

As for which load data to use, I was always told to use lead data for Berry's plated bullets, and I've never had any issues with that. To be more precise, I use the lead data from the Lyman's reloading handbook almost exclusively for Berry's plated bullets across five different calibers, including .38 spl. To date, I've rolled just under 2,000 rounds of .38 spl, with about 1,000 of those being Berry's plated without any issues at all. Note: all of my .38 spl plated rounds are middle-of-the-road target rounds. Of that 1,000 rounds, I've fired about 700.

Hope that helps.

[jetinteriorguy]

I usually start at mid lead level as a min. and end at mid jacketed level as a max for both plated and HiTec coated bullets. Seems like I usually wind up just past starting jacketed level for best performance. For crimp in on all my magnums I love the Lee collet crimp die, very easy to adjust, easy on the brass, and not as picky on brass length. Other than heavy magnum loads it doesn't take much of a crimp to hold good.

[Ozzieman]

I was always told to use lead data for Berry's plated bullets

Rangerrich99 is correct. Don't push Berry's more than 1000 FPS.
Also he is correct on the crimp. Its very easy to deform plated bullets and it will affect accuracy.

[Ben_Snow]

Ok Guys... Some GREAT stuff here.... just apply a light crimp... Thanks

Also... to clarify ..... Will be loading for .357M in a Blackhawk Revolver (6.5" Barrel), I do use 38sp. occasionally but with factory loads.

Still a bit confused on which die I should use...Should I stick with the Lee Factory Crimp (Roll), or wait and use the tapered die. Don't want to purchase the collet die unless absolutely necessary, already in the doghouse with the wife for the initial investment of $$$ which keeps growing.

On to my powder question too... I went to purchase Unique, but all stores in our area were out. I ended up buying 1lb of Bullseye, and think I made a mistake. After reading much on the forums haven't read a lot of good about using Bullseye for lighter loads. My Lee manual lists a load (lead) for 158gr bullet of 4.2gr Min (838 fps) and 4.8gr Max (939 fps) in which both are well under the Berrys fps limit for plated. Alliant only lists the max (4.8gr/939 fps)

However, forum info indicates that Bullseye is fast burning and creates very high pressure for a 158gr low/mid-range load, they suggest using something that will obtain 900-1000 fps for good accuracy at a lower pressure. PLEASE --- Provide some inputs for a better powder choice and loads if possible that keeps me within the fps limit with decent accuracy for target. If its a little dirty its ok, everything is a trade off.... Appreciate your guys help with this !!

[mmb713]

I load 158gr plated flat points in 357. I use Xtreme bullets. I crimp with the Lee FCD. A half turn down gives a perfect light roll crimp for plated bullets. I use Universal which gives me very good accuracy in my 6.5" Blackhawk and 4" GP100 and it meters better than Unique and is much cleaner. Unique and Bullseye will work just fine though.

Try the Bullseye, you may be surprised. I've used it before for light 357 and 45 Auto and I prefer other powders that aren't as dirty, but the stuff sure is accurate. They don't call it Bullseye for nothing. It meters flawlessly too.

Don't worry about pressure levels. As long as you don't go over Alliant's max of 4.8gr you will be below SAAMI max pressure, probably well below, and your velocity will be safe for plated bullets. Your Blackhawk can handle several lifetimes of full power 357 loads.

[Nate762]

I've loaded similar bullets (Ranier) same weight and profile. I used lead loads at high end. My results in Ruger gp100 with 4" barrel were about 950 fps. I have rcbs .38/357 dies. Using universal powder, I'm at work so I don't have the exact charge. I had excellent results. Unique should work well.

Once I seated all my bullets, I turned my seating die in about 1/3 turn more for crimp. Bullets stayed and accuracy was excellent and consistent. I always prefer to make crimping a separate step. Just my personal preference

[Ben_Snow]

Thanks Guys.... Appreciate the info... Don't mean to beat a dead horse, but please read one more post to ensure I didn't misinterpret before I start loading.

Here is my composite solution from all the replies:

-- Stay with the Lee Factory Crimp, just apply a light pressure. The Lee Factory die will apply enough light crimp (without cracking the plating) that should be safely functional and accurate enough for light-moderate loads.

-- Give the Bullseye Powder a chance, while burning a bit dirty it still should provide very good results for accuracy.

-- Since I'm a newbie I will operate my Turret as a single stage and verify EVERY step. Prefer to take it slow at first, safety over speed.



My final load (Appreciate feedback if needed):

.357M - Berry's 158gr Plated RN --- Bullseye 4.2gr -4.6gr (4.8gr is max) -- very light roll crimp - This is for a .357 Blackhawk w/6.5" Brl

Will make a 24 at 4.2gr, 24 more at 4.4, and 24 more at 4.6 and see how they group. That should cover velocities from 838fps - 920fps (per Lee's data), well under the 1200fps plated limit. Sound like a plan?

[robhic]

New reloader here, too. This site might be useful in your search (and beyond)! It's the data from Rainier Ballistics which makes plated bullets. A bunch of calibers and stuff. This should give you plenty plated bullet info.

http://cakesniffer.org/stuff/boom/RanierData.pdf

[mikld]

With no offence towards the OP, this is why I don't recommend plated bullets to new reloaders. I see many, many questions on line mostly about crimping and load data. Perhaps it's just too little, easy to find information that experienced reloaders may not need.

For a bullet sans crimp groove/cannalure a taper crimp is normally used. I have roll crimped swaged bullets, but found a taper crimp is better. I have used a sort of "combination" crimp; the Redding Profie Crimp on my 38/357 and 44 Special/Magnums with good success.

[willr]

Be careful with Unique. I have had trouble with consistent charges with Unique. Apparently, I am not the only person to have such problems.
willr

[Rangerrich99]

[QUOTE]

Will make a 24 at 4.2gr, 24 more at 4.4, and 24 more at 4.6 and see how they group. That should cover velocities from 838fps - 920fps (per Lee's data), well under the 1200fps plated limit.

Probably you don't need to make 24 of each load. I'd only make 6 or 12 at most. Mostly what you're testing for in the first work up is pressure signs and to ensure that you used the appropriate amount of crimp to prevent your bullets from moving during recoil. And you don't need 24 rounds of each load to figure that out. Usually you find your 'most accurate' load during your second work up.

Note: using the powder you're planning to use, you shouldn't have any issues with bullets moving during recoil. So I'd dial in just enough crimp to remove the case mouth flare from the expander die, no more. But actually adjusting your dies properly at first can be a little tricky; hopefully you have a caliper so you can check your before and afters.

[Ben_Snow]

For a bullet sans crimp groove/cannalure a taper crimp is normally used. I have roll crimped swaged bullets, but found a taper crimp is better. I have used a sort of "combination" crimp; the Redding Profie Crimp on my 38/357 and 44 Special/Magnums with good success.

Absolutely no offense taken! Just wish I had that advice prior to buying. Give me credit though, I am doing my due diligence in absorbing every bit of wisdom before pulling that lever, I shudder to think of those that heavy crimp a plated bullet and then load it beyond the maximum velocity limit.

Going with Plated wasn't just for cost, I want to reduce lead exposure for primarily the spouse. Regardless of the reason, I need to (SAFELY) learn how to properly crimp and load these plated bullets, the only alternative would be to toss 1000 bullets in the trash.

[Ben_Snow]

Probably you don't need to make 24 of each load. I'd only make 6 or 12 at most. Mostly what you're testing for in the first work up is pressure signs and to ensure that you used the appropriate amount of crimp to prevent your bullets from moving during recoil. And you don't need 24 rounds of each load to figure that out. Usually you find your 'most accurate' load during your second work up.

Note: using the powder you're planning to use, you shouldn't have any issues with bullets moving during recoil. So I'd dial in just enough crimp to remove the case mouth flare from the expander die, no more. But actually adjusting your dies properly at first can be a little tricky; hopefully you have a caliper so you can check your before and afters.

Excellent advice, Ranger, much Thanks! Yes, I have a caliper and will check OD and OAL. Another dumb question, what indications should I look for that would indicate pressure issues (other than an obvious jam in the cylinder)...

[Nick_C_S]

I'm late to the party again

I load a lot of plated bullets for 38/357. This is an area where I have a lot of experience. There's a lot of posts here were I would like to chime in and give additional perspective. But I'll keep it rather brief.

-- Stay with the Lee Factory Crimp, just apply a light pressure. The Lee Factory die will apply enough light crimp (without cracking the plating) that should be safely functional and accurate enough for light-moderate loads.

I have a Lee FCD for every caliber I own. There's a lot of strong opinions out there regarding the Lee FCD (mikld's is in a landfill in southern Oregon ); and I don't mean to get everyone fired up on yet another spirited discussion of their merit. I'm just going to say I like them. However . . .

I don't use my FCD for loading plated bullets. I use an RCBS taper crimp die for all my plated bullets (38/357 & 44Spl/Mag).

Using your Lee FCD to "just apply a light pressure" is okay; and would be my suggestion too. But, if you plan on loading a lot of plated bullets (like me), then I suggest making the investment of getting a taper crimp die. It's the correct way to crimp plated bullets.

-- Give the Bullseye Powder a chance, while burning a bit dirty it still should provide very good results for accuracy.

Bullseye doesn't run "dirty" in the typical use of the term. I call it "residuey." I believe it has a graphite coating that tends to not burn off and stays behind on/in your gun. Bullseye is great stuff. If you clean your guns, it's really a non-issue. My concern is burn rate . . .

I am as much of a fast powder centric loader as anyone I know. But I believe that Bullseye is a bit fast for your application. Make no mistake, it can definitely be done. But your pressure curve is going to be steep - i.e. small increases in charge weight can result in big increases in pressure. Caution should be exercised. Bullseye is spunky, high energy, and unforgiving. This is not to discourage you. It is to make sure you approach your load work up with a great deal of respect. There is potential risk with all ammunition handloading, so I'm not trying to create a skewed perspective. Just cross your "t's" and dot your "i's."

I'm not a fan of Unique; however, in this application, it's the better choice. My 158gn PFP (Plated Flat Point) recipe with Unique is 7.4 grains. Yields 1084 f/s thorough a 3" bbl; and 1153 f/s through a 4" bbl. This is as hard as I will push a plated bullet. When I want more juice, I move to jacketed.

Other good propellant choices (that I've used - there are others for sure) would be AA#5, Power Pistol, and HS-6. These are all considered "intermediate burn rate" propellants. I recommend getting something in this burn rate range when you get a chance. Save the Bullseye for your lighter 38 Special loads

[bamaranger]

A 158 slug, running at or about 1000 fps, is a great mid-level load and will serve well as a GP round for your revolver(s). No telling how many of just such loads I've put together and fired in my .357's. Unique was the powder for most of those rounds.

Bullseye is likely not the best choice, my concern being the ease in which the magnum case will swallow your small charges. Pay close attention, as it will be easy to double (or even triple) charge a case with of course, bad results. I like Bullseye in cases with less capacity, like 9mm. But in these days of scarce pistol powders, we have to use what we can get. Also, the fast powders certainly offer good economy with their modest charge weights.

Unique is an old powder, seems as I recall it being used early on in cartridges originally loaded with BP, and is thus bulkier and takes up more case room for good purpose. I've found Unique to be a "dirty" powder, more so than Bullseye......but neither really an issue if you clean your guns.

[mikld]

What may be a better introduction to reloading is to put the plated bullets away for now and get some inexpensive jacketed .357" bullets. All you have to do is seat the bullet to the cannalure and roll crimp. When you get a handle on reloading for your .357 then try your plated bullets...

I've had good luck with this vendor, but shop around http://www.evergladesammo.com/38-357...p-bullets.html

[Ben_Snow]

Nick & Bamaranger --

thanks for your HELPFULL replies

Nick, sent you a PM

[rg1]

Just my opinion but I would never load uncannelured plated bullets in my .357 Magnum pistol or rifle. Berry's are soft, any type crimp is likely to break the thin copper plating and also effect accuracy. I would only use a taper crimp die if I did. I too would highly recommend jacketed cannelured bullet for .357 and inexpensive jacketed bullets cost is not much higher than plated. Sorry to be negative but I wouldn't waste my powder and primers on them. I would only recommend cannelured bullets in .38 or .357 magnum.

[Ben_Snow]

Lots of varying opinions in this thread.... Sometimes confusing though for newbies...

One opinion will say that brand X is the best powder, the next person says its ok, the last says its the worst.... rinse repeat for all other brands

Another opinion says Plated bullets are bad, another Ok, a third says he's loaded thousands with good results.

Not complaining mind you, input is always appreciated, just explaining how confusing it can be for new people (like myself) that are trying to narrow the choices. With my choices I tend to give more weight to posts that provide more than a opinion, posts that include actual experience examples or hard data are given even more weight. If its a subjective question I try to get a composite answer, toss out the outliers, and narrow to a few choices in the center that fit my parameters.

[jetinteriorguy]

Using Extreme brand Cu plated bullets with the Lee collet crimp die has never broken the Cu plating for me even with a pretty fair crimp. A good way to test how your doing is to load up a dummy round and then extract it with an inertia type bullet puller, this will tell you wheather or not your crimp is too heavy. The nice thing about the collet crimp is the fact it isn't as dependent on your brass length to be effective. This is just my direct experience, ymmv.

[mikld]

Ben Snow, when one asks a question on a forum, 99.9% of the replies are opinions. Many lack actual, tested facts. To eliminate any confusion/frustration, a new reloader should research. With all the information available from manufacturers there is no reason to ask on a forum "how do I crimp plated bullets?". There are tons of texts out there that are backed by facts. Depending on the general "personality" of the forum a question will be answered with every conceivable answer from A to Z. Forums with mostly older/experienced members will lean towards one area of thinking and a forum with predominately newer reloaders will perhaps go 180 degrees from that thinking. Military arms based forums will differ from basically hunting forums and both will differ from forums devoted to bench rest target shooting...

All of us have heard the excuse; "well I read it on the internet...".

[Nick_C_S]

I would never load uncannelured plated bullets in my .357 Magnum pistol or rifle.

I do. I load Berry's 158 PFP (which is the one I believe our OP is using) and X-treme's reasonable facsimile (more so than Berry's - but that's off subject). Neither has a cannelure. I do however, taper crimp them. I also load (more of) X-treme's 158 SWC. Now it has a cannelure, but I still taper crimp it. I taper crimp all my plated ammunition. These 357 Mag loads are my mainstay "range shooters" and run well short of a true "magnum performance" round. They're hotter than 38+P, but certainly short of what most consider "magnum."

Berry's are soft, any type crimp is likely to break the thin copper plating and also effect accuracy.

Any type crimp? Even taper? Either way, I've loaded my share of plated ammo where the copper plating was likely broken and my day(s) at the range was unaffected. Yes, ideally, we loaders should avoid breaking the copper plating, but doing so isn't catastrophic. I'm not denying it can cause leading and adversely affect accuracy. I'm just saying that in the real world, it doesn't seem to be much of an atrocity. Perspective.

I too would highly recommend jacketed cannelured bullet for .357

I agree insomuch that the implication is that loaders are substituting plated bullets for jacketed; and one shouldn't. Plated bullets are meant to be a "clean" substitute for lead bullets. Not a cheap substitute for jacketed bullets.

I load a lot of plated bullets; and I like them a lot. But they're not jacketed. With my load style, I'm quick to move to jacketed if my load purpose is a fairly hot round.

[disseminator]

I have loaded hundreds of plated 158g bullets for my buddies SW 586 revolver, and thousands of plated bullets for my own 45 Colt. So this is fact based.

First of all, I've yet to see anyone mention trimming so I will. Regardless of crimp type case length will determine whether or not you will get consistent crimping. So ensure that your brass is close in length. It doesn't necessarily have to be MINIMUM trim length mind you, just equal so that when your crimp is applied, it will be consistent for all your rounds.

If your bullets have a cannelure and you are seating to cannelure depth: use a roll crimp. If your bullets have no cannelure, or you are seating to a depth that is not lining up to the cannelure: taper crimp.

Lymans has excellent data for lead bullets which is what I use for plated bullets.

Happy shooting!

[Ben_Snow]

mikld wrote; With all the information available from manufacturers there is no reason to ask on a forum "how do I crimp plated bullets

Actually the question I asked referred to advice on using a taper or roll crimp, a fair question to ask on a handloading forum I would think.

Regardless, the entire purpose of this forum is for people to ask "how do I", following your logic there would not be any questions asked, and therefore no forum.

For the record I did do my own research outside the forum. I contacted both Lee and Berry's directly and spoke with them. The forum question I posted was to validate the vendors advice and gain some wisdom from those with actual hands-on experience. Many provided information that was extremely helpful, and I am extremely grateful to those people. I have all the information I need so will move on. Have a good day