Removing powder from active blank rounds

[collectors]

Hello all i have a couple of questions, in relation to useing a set primer from one cartridge in another, now i know all depends on size, i have blank rifle rounds, which i am sure holds black powder, that i need, for another cartridge, so i am thinking of taking a hacksaw and cutting the top of the blank round, to get the powder out, would this be safe? providing that the powder is at the bottom of the case as i cut the top?

Now this blank is primed and unfired, my next question is, would it be possible to remove a live primer, from the blank, after i remove the black powder, for use in another cartridge, if it is the same size, and if so what would be the best way to go about removing it? any advice most welcome.
Thanks in advance.

[tkglazie]

you took the time to post this so its worth a response. you did say opinions welcome, so in this man's opinion, nothing about what you are thinking about doing is a good idea.

reusing primers is a bad idea right off the bat in my opinion. A properly seated primer is deformed (crushed) permanently when it is pressed into place. You can feel this happen as you are pressing it. thats the anvil being compressed. you cannot uncrush a primer.

reusing an unknown powder from a blank, or any other cartridge, for reloading purposes is not an accepted practice. as a fertilizer, recovered gunpowder is very useful. And why do you assume they hold black powder? assumptions have no place in reloading.

[SL1]

Removing the primers is not much of a problem. You can usually decap them with slow pressure and use them again. (Wear eye protection in case one does go off and get launched out of the primer pocket to ricochet around the area.)

Getting the powder out is a different problem. Black powder is a low-grade explosive that can be set-off by impact or heat as well as sparks. I would not use a hacksaw. If I was going to cut open the cases with the powder inside, the best tool I can think of at the moment is a tube cutter. Maybe others will have a better idea.

SL1

[collectors]

A highly appreciated reply, with top class advice, the primer removing, from one cartridge to another, idea!!!!! is now fully out of the picture, so thanks again.
I am curious to see what type of powder is in the blank, would you think it might be ok for me to saw the top off it?

SL1 i just noticed your reply it is totally the opposite to TKGLAZIE, so if i push the primer out slowly, and if it fits the other cartridge you feel it will work? also thanks for advice on removing the powder

[tkglazie]

you may be able to reuse the primers, remember, I just said in MY opinion you shouldnt. I dont know how you can properly press it in again and get a consistent placement.

I should have prefaced my reply by saying I am relatively new to the game myself. After rereading my post, I came off as sounding more definitive than I should have. I am not an expert.

[zxcvbob]

Don't use a hacksaw, use a tubing cutter.

It's probably not black powder; more likely a *very* fast smokeless powder like Clays or Norma R1. It would be usable in some pistol cartridges, but unless you have hundreds of them it's not worth the trouble (and the danger) of trying to find a decent load. By the time you find a use for it, you'll be out of it.

The primers are probably OK if they are not crimped in place -- but they probably are crimped. You can buy primers for 2 or 3 cents each.

Do you have a gun to shoot them, or do you know someone who might buy them and shoot them? They are most valuable used as blanks and then scrap metal.

[collectors]

Thanks for all replies, i think i will give both exercises a miss, i have no gun for the blanks to fit, i think the lads from the battle reenactments have the old ww2 rifles for them, but i have an old blackpowder revolver, which seems to work pretty well, on the dry fire, i am bulling to test fire it, but so far i only have an empty case and a bullet head for it, i am on the hunt for black powder and a primer to kick it off

[tkglazie]

upon further review elsewhere, it is interesting how many people reuse decapped live primers. for those that do, how do you avoid damaging the primer when you press it in the second time? Since it is already crushed from the first time it was pressed, are you just bottoming it out and hoping that you dont damage it, or are primers much sturdier than I am giving them credit for?

[snuffy]

1st, you didn't state what type, gauge, caliber the blank is. It most likely NOT black powder. Second, using "pull-down" powder is a wild gamble no matter which type of shell. 3rd, removing live primers is not a big deal, I've done it many times and re-used them with no failures and none popping while being removed.

[valleyforge.1777]

Black powder firearms can not be safely fired with modern, smokeless powder. The pressures from the modern powder are too high. You need to go to the black powder sub forum and tell the guys what kind of gun you've got and they will give you tons of great info about what you need to fire it and where to get the correct powder, primers, etc. Even if you find real black powder, you need the correct grade of powder. It comes in different granulation sizes. Some are suitable for pistols and some are way not.

If you can't get the info you need on the internet, or if you just want to verify the info you do get, call Chuck Dixon at Dixon's Muzzleloading shop in PA: 610-756-6271. He's the nicest man you will ever talk with on this earth and he is a walking encyclopedia of black powder shooting. http://www.dixonmuzzleloading.com/

Good luck and stay safe.

[collectors]

Brilliant stuff i will follow up on all of your help guys, i will try post a pic of the blank round tomorrow, for more advice on the primer removal, and will make sure that i get the correct powder and precise load.

[zxcvbob]

how do you avoid damaging the primer when you press it in the second time? [1]Since it is already crushed from the first time it was pressed, are you just bottoming it out and hoping that you dont damage it, or [2]are primers much sturdier than I am giving them credit for?

1. Yes
2. Yes

I don't reuse primers for match ammo or for self-defense ammo, I use them for practice ammo. I've never had one go off in the press or fail to go off when fired.

[rebs]

IMHO what you want to do is not worth the risk of injury to your self.

[jaguarxk120]

Generally blank powder is VERY fast burning, it makes Norma R1 look like a very slow rifle powder.

Blank powder is/was used in pineapple grenades as a bursting charge.

[Jim Watson]

collectors, it is all just guesswork since the calliber, make, and age of the blanks in question is a secret. If you do not furnish full information, you cannot get a meaningful answer.

A blank might be loaded with black powder, fast pistol powder, or ultra fast dedicated blank powder, depending on caliber and age. The problem is knowing which. Powder identification by appearance is not reliable.

The primer could probably be salvaged for low value reuse but depending on the age and source it might be corrosive, mercuric, or Berdan.

[tkglazie]

I don't reuse primers for match ammo or for self-defense ammo, I use them for practice ammo. I've never had one go off in the press or fail to go off when fired.

Understood. Thanks for the clarification. It was consistency/reliability more than safety that had me scratching my head re: the pre-crushed condition of the primer, for practice I guess it wouldnt matter.

[serf 'rett]

...you would come out far better selling the blanks to someone and using the proceeds to buy new primers.

A lot of work and worry to salvage a batch of primers of unknown quality or character. You might be money ahead to shoot the blanks and sell the brass for scrap.

[CrustyFN]

I have decaped live primers and reused them in a different case, not a problem. The thing is they were primers that I put in and had a problem with the round and didn't want to fire it so I knew what the primers were. I personally wouldn't reuse primers that I had no idea of what they were other than large or small.

[Edward429451]

I cut blanks with a hacksaw, but I know they are not black powder. I know that brass is nonferrous (wont spark) and I use a sharp blade (cuts faster generates less heat than a dull blade) to keep the heat down. I cut down live 7.62 blanks in a trim die and file chamfer/deburr with the powder still in it. It reforms them into 45 ACP Shot Shell brass. I reuse the primer by leaving it in there.

There's little to no danger in doing this. I've done at least a couple hundred of these with no incident. I don't reuse primers that I need to pop out of the case because when a primer seats, it seats the anvil as noted and trying to move it to another case would be iffy. Ok for range ammo perhaps.

[farmerboy]

Not worth the trouble not to mention if you get injuried. Primers are so cheap and you have no idea about the components. Just buy what you want.

[Lost Sheep]

If I read the original post right, Collector is hoping to use both the powder and the primers with his black powder firearm (post #7).

The powder might work and might not work or might blow things (your gun and your hand and your face) up.

From your post #7 I infer that your black powder firearm is a muzzleloader? If I am wrong about that, skip the next two paragraphs.

The primers definitely will not work.

Primers for percussion muzzle loaders (proper term "Percussion Caps") are manufactured differently than primers for fixed ammunition (cartridges) and do not interchange. The chemicals inside them used to be the same stuff, and may still be the same, but the construction of the primers themselves are different. Physically, you are EXTREMELY unlikely to fit a primer designed for a cartridge fit on the percussion nipple. One is an 'innie" and the other is an "outie".

I have found a tubing cutter a LOT faster and easier and with less metal shavings fouling things up than a hacksaw to cut metal. But I don't open cartridges that way, anyway.

Lost Sheep

[Lost Sheep]

Originally Posted by collectors

SL1 i just noticed your reply it is totally the opposite to TKGLAZIE, so if i push the primer out slowly, and if it fits the other cartridge you feel it will work?

Primers are designed to be set off by a sharp blow. Slow pressure rarely sets one off. But it can happen.

Primers are designed to be "pre-stressed" (note: this may not be the proper term--of-art, but you get the idea) when they are seated. The anvil inside the primer squishes into the priming compound and makes it even more sensitive to the next (impact) force.

Pushing such a primer out of the primer pocket may further stress the priming compound, but, not being a sharp blow, is still unlikely to set it off, if the pressure is slowly applied and not too great. (Wear eye protection, hearing protection, gloves and drape a heavy cloth over your press for maximum safety.)

Reinstalling the primer so double-stressed into another cartridge's primer pocket can be done, but using that primer in a cartridge whose performance is critical to a hunt, a competitiion, or self-defense is not the best idea. The brissance is now suspect, even if the function of the primer isn't.

Blanks are often manufactured with Berdan primers. These are more difficult to remove than Boxer primers. Boxer primers have a single flash hole and the depriming pin can easily find the hole (centered in the cartridge) and push the primer out. Berdan cartridges have two flash holes and have to be pried out from the backside (which will ruin the primer for re-use if it doesn't set it off) or pressed out with hydraulic pressure (and the water will very likely ruin the primer).

If you haven't already decided to drop the idea, buy more health and accident insurance.

If your black powder gun is a cartridge arm, is it original or a replica? If original, find out if it has significant collector's value before shooting it, or even cleaning it with more than a little oil.

The ammunition intended of CASS (Cowboy Action Shooting Sports) is smokeless powder, but loaded so as not to over-stress black powder guns. So, if it is replica gun, you are probably good to go with CASS ammunition.

Tell us what you have, please?

Lost Sheep

[mrawesome22]

Black powder is kind of neat because the burn rate stays the same whether or not it is under pressure.

Cutting into a case that may or may not contain black powder to salvage some primers IMO is foolish.

Edit: Cartridge brass has an acceptable allowance of up to 2% iron.


Sent from HenseMod6.

[Mike Irwin]

IMPORTANT NOTE ON POWDER IN BLANK CARTRIDGES

Depending on the age of these cartridges, and especially if they are US military loaded between the late 1890s and the middle 1950s, trying to reuse the powder in them could result in damage to your gun, serious bodily injury or even DEATH.

Most blank cartridges from that time frame was loaded with Hercules EC Flash Powder.

EC Flash Powder may be the only smokeless powder ever to be used for small arms rounds that is truly an explosive. During World War II it was used as a substitute filling for US fragmentation grenades at various times.

Use of even miniscule amounts of EC Flash Powder behind a solid projectile can result in a wrecked gun; use of anything approaching a standard load can result in serious injury or DEATH.

EC Flash Powder was phased out of military service starting in the 1950s, IIRC, and replaced with conventional pistol powders.

I believe that the standard powder for use in 5.56 military blanks is IMR 700x, which is probably one of the reasons why military blanks create so much soot.

[Mike Irwin]

"Cartridge brass has an acceptable allowance of up to 2% iron."

Uhm... say what?

TWO percent?

That would make it harder than marine brass (Aich's alloy), which is quite hard, not very ductile, but quite corrosion resistant. I can't imagine that a 2% alloy would be at all suitable for cartridge brass.

It's also expensive and hardly anyone is making it anymore.

A Muntz metal alloy, which contains traces of iron (normally 0.something to 0.0something would be a LOT more suitable for cartridge brass.