Load suggests for .44Mag , based on my .44 Spl?

Pond, James Pond · January 22, 2017, 04:34 PM

My current .44Spl load, used in competitions is a 200gr LSWC over 7.0gr of N320 at 36.8mm COL and a 1/3 turn crimp. The velocity must be around 850fps.

It seems to have proved itself at the last competition.

However, my shortage of Spl cases and constant carbon ring cleaning means I'd like to use mag cases for my comps in future.

What would you do to the recipe in order to keep the performance, but change cases?

I do know that COL will have to increase by about the same difference as there is between Mag and Spl cases anyway and this suggests that the charge may rise.

For the time being, I'll probably use "chrono of palm" as a guide, shooting the standard Spls and my Mags back to back to see which feels closest to the existing load.

T. O'Heir · January 22, 2017, 05:04 PM

Hi. The .44 Special is to the .44 Mag as the .38 Special is to .357 Mag. The same load in the Mag case will be fine. Use .44 Mag 200 grain OAL of 1.570".
Shot bullseye for years with my GP100 using 148 grain WC's and 2.7 of Bullseye. No fuss. No bother.

Pond, James Pond · January 22, 2017, 05:16 PM

So the extra 3mm of case space will not drop pressure to far?

oldscot3 · January 22, 2017, 08:58 PM

You may already know this but, 44 spcl and 44 mag are supposed to have the same overall length. The reason 44 spcls end up shorter is because the cannelure for most bullets are located for the 44 magnum's longer case.

If you're shooting a magnum though, you may as well be using magnum cases. I've never had a problem finding nicely accurate light loads for mine.

Pond, James Pond · January 23, 2017, 05:10 AM

When I first started on Spls, I just looked at loads with my bullet weight as no one had the exact bullet and that is where I got the shorter COL from, but yes, it seems that in many cases such as 240gr, the COL is almost the same.

Either way, the result is the same here: my existing load is presently 4mm shorter than the mag and I'll need to take that into account if I want to replicate the same performance. The question is what will have to happen to my charge weight?

Salmoneye · January 23, 2017, 08:33 AM

Quote:

The question is what will have to happen to my charge weight?

If it were me (and it aint), I'd:

Start with the 7gr of N320 in a mag case, and chrono it...

If it is within a few FPS of your 850fps Special load, then call it good...If slightly under, add another tenth of a grain and try that...Work your way back to 850 fps in tenth grain increments...

The alternative is to load the Mag cases to the same length as the special cartridges, and do not change the charge weight...

This would effectively give you near the same capacity below the bullet, but you will lose the crimp groove/cannelure and have to contend with a whole new issue...

Pond, James Pond · January 23, 2017, 09:22 AM

Quote:

The alternative is to load the Mag cases to the same length as the special cartridges, and do not change the charge weight...

This would effectively give you near the same capacity below the bullet, but you will lose the crimp groove/cannelure and have to contend with a whole new issue...

I'd opt for this except that the bullet sits just a hair's breadth below the lip of the case and any crimp would pinch thin air! I'd like perhaps a mil' of bullet surface above the lip of the case...

Jim Watson · January 23, 2017, 10:33 AM

APPROXIMATELY half a grain more powder will make up for the increased case volume if loaded to the same seating depth.

But only the chronograph knows for sure.

**44 AMP** · January 23, 2017, 11:53 AM

Quote:

You may already know this but, 44 spcl and 44 mag are supposed to have the same overall length.

The same?? not according to my reference books. About the same, if you stop at 1.6" as loaded length.

My old Lyman book says MAX loaded length (with bullet) is actually slightly longer for the .44 Special!!!

.44 Magnum 1.610"
.44 Special 1.615"

James, I can't give you any valid help on the powder charge, because we don't use the same powders. 850fps range is at or even below my listed starting loads in .44 Magnum.

And 850fps is ABOVE the listed factory speed (245gr bullet) for the .44 Special.

Loading the same powder charge you use in Special cases into magnum brass will result in a slight decrease in velocity, maybe...(guns and loads will vary a bit) but I think you will need a chronograph to tell the difference, IF there is one.

Load a small batch of magnum case target loads and shoot them, see if there is any difference in accuracy for you. If the recoil is the same (and it will be, light) and the accuracy doesn't suffer, then don't worry about the exact speed.

For example, IF load A is doing 850fps, and load B (in magnum brass) is doing 812fps and both shoot to the same point of impact and accuracy at the range you are shooting, you (or I) probably won't be able to tell the difference, without a chronograph.

If the Special powder charge in magnum brass feels noticeably lighter, add a little bit more powder (1/2 grain) and repeat the test.

Good Luck, and let us know how things work out.

oldscot3 · January 23, 2017, 09:09 PM

Quote:

.44 Magnum 1.610"
.44 Special 1.615"

Now Mr. 44 AMP, since a human hair can be as thick as .002", at .005" difference you really are splitting hairs aren't you?

SHR970 · January 23, 2017, 09:33 PM

Pond.. you might have to bump your charge up 0.1 to 0.2 to maintain the velocity. Chances are that the brass length difference will make that point moot. The overall combination is what counts in the accuracy Dept. and that's what counts for your ammo in a shoot.

markallen · January 23, 2017, 10:26 PM

If your short of cases, just trim Mag cases to Special length. That way you won't have to change anything, except cleaning the carbon rings, and keeping the brass seperate.

Pond, James Pond · January 24, 2017, 02:26 AM

I suppose I was being overly optimistic that there would be a straight forward option that negated at least some testing!!

A chrono will be needed and for that I need range time and for that I need time!!

So I'll load up some standard 40.7mm length mags with these and work up a load using 7.0 as a start load. 0.2gr increments up till mid-range N320 mag laods for a 200gr bullet.

Don't hold your breath, though. The last time I loaded some trial loads I had to wait 6mths before I had the time to try them out!!

I guess I'll have to keep frantically prepping Spl cases each week between now and then!

Thanks for the pointers though.

JohnMoses · January 24, 2017, 06:55 PM

I plugged your load into quickload, it shows identical velocity for the mag & the special (300mps, 584joule). Curiously, it showed slightly higher pressure in the mag case. I used the 200 grain lee bullet because I cast that one. I'd just keep your load.

Pond, James Pond · January 24, 2017, 07:47 PM

Thanks!!

Great news!

However, can I just check one aspect of you predictions?

Was the COL for the Mag recipe 40.7mm or the same as my Special's 36.8mm?

If the Mag cases were the same as the Special then I'd have to extend the Mag's because seating to 36.8mm would put the edge of the bullet below the Mag cases's lip, making crimp impossible.

JohnMoses · January 25, 2017, 08:30 PM

Well, there is only 1 crimp groove on the lee bullet, but ql lists 40.89mm col in the mag and 41.02 in the spcl. I don't know what to say. I reset col to 40.7 in both cartridges, and got identical velocities, 301mps. spcl was 15,161psi, mag 15,128. these are trivial, I would crimp where you want and shoot.
.
both loads burn 100% of powder at 31% ballistic efficiency.

rclark · January 25, 2017, 09:50 PM

Quote:

APPROXIMATELY half a grain more powder will make up for the increased case volume if loaded to the same seating depth.

That has been my experience too 0.5 up to 1.0g. Chronograph tells the tale. Crimp into the crimp groove and good to go.

For example with 240g SWC:
Note that the Barrels are 5.5 and 6.5 (mag) which account for some difference (not quite apples to apples) .. but in the ball park.

.44 Spec
7.5g Unique 1033
.44 Mag
8.5 Unique 1053

.44 Spec
6.0g Red Dot 950
.44 Mag
6.5 Red Dot 947

January 22, 2017, 04:34 PM	#1
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	Load suggests for .44Mag , based on my .44 Spl? My current .44Spl load, used in competitions is a 200gr LSWC over 7.0gr of N320 at 36.8mm COL and a 1/3 turn crimp. The velocity must be around 850fps. It seems to have proved itself at the last competition. However, my shortage of Spl cases and constant carbon ring cleaning means I'd like to use mag cases for my comps in future. What would you do to the recipe in order to keep the performance, but change cases? I do know that COL will have to increase by about the same difference as there is between Mag and Spl cases anyway and this suggests that the charge may rise. For the time being, I'll probably use "chrono of palm" as a guide, shooting the standard Spls and my Mags back to back to see which feels closest to the existing load.

January 24, 2017, 02:26 AM	#13
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	I suppose I was being overly optimistic that there would be a straight forward option that negated at least some testing!! A chrono will be needed and for that I need range time and for that I need time!! So I'll load up some standard 40.7mm length mags with these and work up a load using 7.0 as a start load. 0.2gr increments up till mid-range N320 mag laods for a 200gr bullet. Don't hold your breath, though. The last time I loaded some trial loads I had to wait 6mths before I had the time to try them out!! I guess I'll have to keep frantically prepping Spl cases each week between now and then! Thanks for the pointers though. Last edited by Pond, James Pond; January 24, 2017 at 07:42 AM.

January 24, 2017, 07:47 PM	#15
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	Thanks!! Great news! However, can I just check one aspect of you predictions? Was the COL for the Mag recipe 40.7mm or the same as my Special's 36.8mm? If the Mag cases were the same as the Special then I'd have to extend the Mag's because seating to 36.8mm would put the edge of the bullet below the Mag cases's lip, making crimp impossible. Last edited by Pond, James Pond; January 25, 2017 at 04:40 AM.

January 22, 2017, 05:04 PM	#2
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Hi. The .44 Special is to the .44 Mag as the .38 Special is to .357 Mag. The same load in the Mag case will be fine. Use .44 Mag 200 grain OAL of 1.570". Shot bullseye for years with my GP100 using 148 grain WC's and 2.7 of Bullseye. No fuss. No bother.

January 22, 2017, 05:16 PM	#3
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	So the extra 3mm of case space will not drop pressure to far?

January 22, 2017, 08:58 PM	#4
oldscot3 Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2007 Location: texas Posts: 997	You may already know this but, 44 spcl and 44 mag are supposed to have the same overall length. The reason 44 spcls end up shorter is because the cannelure for most bullets are located for the 44 magnum's longer case. If you're shooting a magnum though, you may as well be using magnum cases. I've never had a problem finding nicely accurate light loads for mine.

January 23, 2017, 05:10 AM	#5
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	When I first started on Spls, I just looked at loads with my bullet weight as no one had the exact bullet and that is where I got the shorter COL from, but yes, it seems that in many cases such as 240gr, the COL is almost the same. Either way, the result is the same here: my existing load is presently 4mm shorter than the mag and I'll need to take that into account if I want to replicate the same performance. The question is what will have to happen to my charge weight?

January 23, 2017, 10:33 AM	#8
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 19,179	APPROXIMATELY half a grain more powder will make up for the increased case volume if loaded to the same seating depth. But only the chronograph knows for sure.

January 23, 2017, 09:33 PM	#11
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	Pond.. you might have to bump your charge up 0.1 to 0.2 to maintain the velocity. Chances are that the brass length difference will make that point moot. The overall combination is what counts in the accuracy Dept. and that's what counts for your ammo in a shoot.

January 23, 2017, 10:26 PM	#12
markallen Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 2008 Location: N E Ohio Posts: 221	If your short of cases, just trim Mag cases to Special length. That way you won't have to change anything, except cleaning the carbon rings, and keeping the brass seperate.

January 24, 2017, 06:55 PM	#14
JohnMoses Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2008 Posts: 200	I plugged your load into quickload, it shows identical velocity for the mag & the special (300mps, 584joule). Curiously, it showed slightly higher pressure in the mag case. I used the 200 grain lee bullet because I cast that one. I'd just keep your load.

January 25, 2017, 08:30 PM	#16
JohnMoses Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2008 Posts: 200	Well, there is only 1 crimp groove on the lee bullet, but ql lists 40.89mm col in the mag and 41.02 in the spcl. I don't know what to say. I reset col to 40.7 in both cartridges, and got identical velocities, 301mps. spcl was 15,161psi, mag 15,128. these are trivial, I would crimp where you want and shoot. . both loads burn 100% of powder at 31% ballistic efficiency.