American made 9.3 MM barrels

Wyosmith · December 12, 2016, 11:04 AM

Hello to all.

I have been in correspondence with Green Mountain Barrel Co concerning them making some .366" barrel blanks with 1-10" or 1-11" twist. We are just at the "talking stage" right now, but I am hoping this will go forward.

The 9.3X62 cartridge is an excellent hunting round that is not super popular here in the USA, but seems to be up and coming. The bullet companies seem to know it. Barnes, Hornady, Swift, Nosler, and Speer all make bullets for them here in the USA, and Woodleigh, Norma, Lapua and Prvi make them overseas. Possibly a few others I am unaware of too.

The old black powder 9.3s were often rifled at about 1-20". As smokeless powders came into use the twist was tightened up. Today the 2 most common twists are 1-14" and 1-12" but even the 1-12" is just barely enough twist to keep 320 grain bullets stable. So I am suggesting they make these barrels with a 1-11 or 1-10 twist. Firing a 225 grain bullet from the fast twist is just fine, but firing the long heavy 320 from the slower twist is sometimes not fine, so I can see no reason to even make the slow twist.

Anyway, I am putting feelers out on line.

How many of you would be interested in buying a barrel blank (or maybe a few) for a 9.3X62, a 9.3X64 or a 9.3X74R with a bit faster twist?

Green Mountain said they would consider making a run of 100 of them if there was a market. I am pretty sure there is.

What say ye?

eastbank · December 12, 2016, 12:22 PM

i used a 9.3x62 MS to take a cape buffalo in africa and it got the job done,i was backed up with a .375 H&H cz 550. but i think a 35 whelen would have also done the job. a.008 bigger diamiter bullet would not be a big deal for me tho. out of my ruger #1 in 35 whelen i can push a 250gr bullet over 2500fps. eastbank.

Jimro · December 12, 2016, 01:14 PM

I'm a fan of the 9.3x62, it's a darn fine medium bore. Back when I had mine built the only two options were 1:14 or 1:12.

A 1:14 twist is "about optimal" for not overspinning cast bullet loads in a 9.3x62 (or 35 Whelen for that matter) when you bump muzzle velocity over 2300 fps. The 1:12 twist is good to about 2230 fps, which is even fine for elk with a cast 290gr bullet. This is all based on Larry Gibson's work on the RPM limitations for cast bullets, which have plenty of empirical evidence.

A 1:11 that could shoot 320 heavies, would also stabilize lighter cast bullets, but would make getting accuracy at "normal" velocities more of a challenge. It would definitely be optimized for commercial jacketed bullets though, but most hunting rifles are nowadays.

I chose a 1:12 twist since it would give me the option of pushing a 320 gr, even if only at max loads to get enough spin on the bullet. Looking back I would have been just fine with a 1:14 twist for everything I plan on using the rifle for.

But, if you get a 1:11 twist (or tighter) barrel, you'll want a true long action to maximize powder space in the brass.

I can't predict that a 1:11 twist 9.3x62 custom rifle will sell like hotcakes, but I predict that pushing those 320gr bullets fast enough will perk some ears and generate interest. Everybody wants a rifle that hits your shoulder like a gentle shove and smacks the game like a lighting strike.

Jimro

Wyosmith · December 12, 2016, 02:04 PM

I am on my 2nd barrel for my 375H&H and I love the rifle and the cartridge, but working with the 9.3X62, I have to admit that if I had started this 40 years ago, I might have bought a 9.3 instead of the 375. For what I use the 375 for, I am pretty sure the 9.3 would do the same job.
The 375 is outstanding in every way, but it is long and a bit heavy in comparison to the 9.3, and the 9.3 seems to do all I would ask my 375 to do. I will not ever return to Africa, so I can't really see a down side to the 9.3 on American big game. The 9.3X62 fits on the standard 30-06 length actions and the H&H needs a magnum length magazine.
The 375 shoots a 270 grain bullet at about 2700 and the 9.3 shoots a 286 grain at about 2450. So the 375 shoots a bit flatter, but again for real world hunting, I can't see that the flatter trajectory of the 375 is going to help all that much, but the lighter recoil of the 9.3 may help a lot.

Neither will allow you to hold "dead on" at 400 yards so you have to hold high at longer ranges.

"If you can hold 14" over the back you can hold 18" over the back."

Once you are holding over, flatness of trajectory isn't that important. If your skill is good enough to hold a killing group you simply hold it. If your skill is not that good, you need to get closer no mater how flat your rifle shoots.

Anyway, please send me PMs if you or anyone you know would like to buy a barrel. They will probably be about $125 each from what info I have now.

Scorch · December 12, 2016, 02:59 PM

Why try to reinvent the wheel? Shilen, Lilja and Douglas make 1:12" .366" barrels. Douglas makes them in 1:10" twist as well.

Wyosmith · December 12, 2016, 06:35 PM

One reason to "reinvent the wheel" is the price. G.M. it talking about $125 instead of $240 and higher of the other companies. I have used their barrels a lot over the last 12 years and I have never got a bad one.

But I will have to go look at your tid-bit of info. I was unaware that Douglas cut 1-10 in that caliber. I have used Shilen and Douglas for all the 9.3s I have made in the last 20 years, and I never knew I could get a 1-10"

weaselfire · December 13, 2016, 10:03 AM

FWIW, I'm not interested in a 9.3 made in the US or elsewhere.

Jeff

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

tobnpr · December 13, 2016, 05:55 PM

GM does not offer FFL discounts; Shilen, McGowen and Douglas-with the Dealer price- is significantly less than the $240 you're quoting. I use GM where accuracy isn't paramount- but their tolerances for bore dimensions are much greater than those of even the "lower" price end of match grade like Shilen, Douglas, McGowen and for the few extra bucks it's usually a no-no brainer for me (and the customer) since the labor to thread/chamber/fit a blank is so significant.

Wyosmith · December 13, 2016, 08:32 PM

I use GM where accuracy isn't paramount- but their tolerances for bore dimensions are much greater than those of even the "lower" price end of match grade like Shilen, Douglas, McGowen

This has not been my experience at all.

I have been using them now for quite some time and I have never gotten a bad one. In fact, the least accurate rifle I can remember putting together with a GM barrel shot about 1 MOA. Many many others shoot well under MOA, and 1/2 MOA is pretty common.

You do however make a good point about labor in using straight blanks instead of contoured barrels. There is a LOT more time involved in using a blank because you have to shape and polish it all yourself. Personally I like having that capability because I get so many calls to do restoration on older rifles, and I like to be able to contour the barrels as I want them or as the original barrels were done. The standard contours used today differ quite a lot from the shaped used 75 to 100 years ago in many cases. If I am goign to make a modern contour I still can, but if I want to copy a German, British or Austrian contour of a rifle made in 1910 or 1920, I like to be able to do it easily. Most of the barrels I buy are just straight blanks for that reason. This probably is not the most common way for modern gunsmiths to work today however, so your point is valid.

Wyosmith · December 28, 2016, 08:26 PM

I got some calls today about the possibility of GM making 27" 9.3 barrels. More folks are getting interested.
Remember guys, if you like the idea for future builds, give Green Mountain a call. It's how they know people are interested.

kilimanjaro · December 29, 2016, 04:24 PM

Could try a Ruger No. 1 barrel.

Wyosmith · December 29, 2016, 10:24 PM

You lost me Kilimajaro.
I don't understand what you mean.

I have a Ruger #1 in 9.3X74R and I LOVE it. It is a very good rifle and far more accurate than I thought it would be, but this thread is about getting Green Mountain to make blanks for the gunsmiths of the country.

So I am not sure what you are saying here.

Gunplummer · December 30, 2016, 03:47 AM

Probably means a take -off Ruger barrel. I used to re-cut a lot of take-off barrels. I have not used a lot of Green Mountain barrels, but I have to agree. The barrels I have used from them were excellent. I used to do a lot of 99 Savage work and a blank is pretty much the only game in town. Contouring a barrel to fit the original forearm of a 99 Featherweight barrel can try anyone's patience, but that is why blanks are needed for some jobs. I can't say I would be interested in a 9.3 barrel. I am pretty much down to friends or the occasional project gun. I don't even get time for that.

Wyosmith · December 30, 2016, 11:17 AM

Because of the type of gunsmithing I do and what I have become known for, blanks are what I used probably 9 times out of 10.
I started gunsmithing in the 60s doing restoration work, and now all these years later most of my work on breach-loading arms is restoration again.
So Gunplumber is correct. For most of the work on older guns, making a barrel from a blank is the best way to proceed. When I buy barrels I always buy blanks because I can make anything I want from them. In the 9.3MM bore, most of the jobs we'd have to do would be contours that are older style. If I got an order to do a re-barrel on a Rem 700 to 9.3X62, no problem from a blank. Easy in fact.
But a more likely job is to re-barrel a 1920s Mauser or to do a recreation of one. You could take a contoured (and far more expensive) Shilen barrel and re-contour it to fit the style, but why would you want to? Much of the price of that barrel is because of the contour and polish, and then you'd just cut through it and do the work again. Starting from a blank is a much better way to go all around.
Now these would be barrels that only gunsmiths or self-builders would want to use if they have access to a good lathe and know how to use it. So this is not something you would buy from Midway or even Brownells, and build a rifle from. This product would be a bit more advanced than that. So I understand this is something to fit a small percentage of the market.

But the 9.3 bore is becoming more popular than I ever thought it would have if someone would have asked me about this 15 years ago. The 2 cartridges that seems to be coming on strong in America are the 9.3X62 first, then the 9.3X57.

The "62" is the one that most people look at because it is nearly identical to the effectiveness of the 375H&H Flanged, and can be had from doing nothing more than rebarreling about any 30-06 bolt action. So you can have that level of effectiveness for far less money then the typical 375H&H.
In my shop left hand hunters seem to understand this well. LH 375H&H rifles are hard to find and very expensive. L.H. 30-06 rifles are easy to find. Rebarrel a 30-06 with a 9.3X62 barrel and you have your gun.

The 9.3X57 Mauser is in competition with the 358 Winchester, and that type of application, but out preforms the 358 and even the 35 Whelen in some cases, but it is super easy to do. You simply take any KAR length Mauser and re-barrel to the 9.3. Easy and pretty inexpensive.

The 9.3X74R is not going to be a big mover in the USA. It's longer than a 375H&H and so it doesn't fit in magazine fed rifles as a rule, and any action that would be long enough needs to have a slant-box magazine for the rims to work. Only Rigby had Square Bridge Mausers made that way and those were made before WW1. I know of no other bolt action that could be made to work with this cartridge.
Ruger chambered it in their #1 and it is a real winner in that rifle. But those are new rifles so I doubt we'll be needing to rebarrel any of them in my lifetime. I have done re-barrels on 2 German made single shot rifles in this caliber, but those are the only 2 jobs I ever did for it. (so far)
It's made specifically for single shot and double barreled rifles, and such rifles are not common in the USA.

The last one to look at is the 9.3X64. This one is in completion with the full power 375H&H and also needs a bit of action work, but not much in comparison to the lengthening needed to open up a GEW length Mauser to H&H size. The shell is a bit larger all over than the standard 30-06 or Mauser shell so the bolt face needs to be opened a bit, but less than the H&H size belted magnums do. It is a very good shell, but not any better than other options in the USA that are easier to get "off the shelf" so I doubt the 9.3X64 is going to get very popular here. The 375 Ruger and even the full length 375H&H are already available . So there is nothing bad to say about the 9.3X64, but it is just not likely to bump the original 375H&H or even the 375 Ruger off the top of the ladder. It has a lot of merit, but has not generated the interest of American hunters to any large degree. It would be easier to rework a Standard Mauser for this shell than to do one for the 375H&H, but reworking Mausers to get that level of power is really not necessary because you can simply buy a factory 375 here with no fuss.

The 9.3X64 is going to stay in the gun cabinets of "European Rifle Fans" and gun buffs that just like "something different" and love to build their own rifles now and then, but I have serious doubts it will make many inroads into the hobby builders shops in the USA.

Anyway....my thoughts........ for what ever their worth.

December 12, 2016, 02:59 PM	#5
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	Why try to reinvent the wheel? Shilen, Lilja and Douglas make 1:12" .366" barrels. Douglas makes them in 1:10" twist as well. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

December 12, 2016, 11:04 AM	#1
Wyosmith Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2010 Location: Shoshoni Wyoming Posts: 2,713	American made 9.3 MM barrels Hello to all. I have been in correspondence with Green Mountain Barrel Co concerning them making some .366" barrel blanks with 1-10" or 1-11" twist. We are just at the "talking stage" right now, but I am hoping this will go forward. The 9.3X62 cartridge is an excellent hunting round that is not super popular here in the USA, but seems to be up and coming. The bullet companies seem to know it. Barnes, Hornady, Swift, Nosler, and Speer all make bullets for them here in the USA, and Woodleigh, Norma, Lapua and Prvi make them overseas. Possibly a few others I am unaware of too. The old black powder 9.3s were often rifled at about 1-20". As smokeless powders came into use the twist was tightened up. Today the 2 most common twists are 1-14" and 1-12" but even the 1-12" is just barely enough twist to keep 320 grain bullets stable. So I am suggesting they make these barrels with a 1-11 or 1-10 twist. Firing a 225 grain bullet from the fast twist is just fine, but firing the long heavy 320 from the slower twist is sometimes not fine, so I can see no reason to even make the slow twist. Anyway, I am putting feelers out on line. How many of you would be interested in buying a barrel blank (or maybe a few) for a 9.3X62, a 9.3X64 or a 9.3X74R with a bit faster twist? Green Mountain said they would consider making a run of 100 of them if there was a market. I am pretty sure there is. What say ye?

December 12, 2016, 12:22 PM	#2
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,452	i used a 9.3x62 MS to take a cape buffalo in africa and it got the job done,i was backed up with a .375 H&H cz 550. but i think a 35 whelen would have also done the job. a.008 bigger diamiter bullet would not be a big deal for me tho. out of my ruger #1 in 35 whelen i can push a 250gr bullet over 2500fps. eastbank.

December 12, 2016, 01:14 PM	#3
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	I'm a fan of the 9.3x62, it's a darn fine medium bore. Back when I had mine built the only two options were 1:14 or 1:12. A 1:14 twist is "about optimal" for not overspinning cast bullet loads in a 9.3x62 (or 35 Whelen for that matter) when you bump muzzle velocity over 2300 fps. The 1:12 twist is good to about 2230 fps, which is even fine for elk with a cast 290gr bullet. This is all based on Larry Gibson's work on the RPM limitations for cast bullets, which have plenty of empirical evidence. A 1:11 that could shoot 320 heavies, would also stabilize lighter cast bullets, but would make getting accuracy at "normal" velocities more of a challenge. It would definitely be optimized for commercial jacketed bullets though, but most hunting rifles are nowadays. I chose a 1:12 twist since it would give me the option of pushing a 320 gr, even if only at max loads to get enough spin on the bullet. Looking back I would have been just fine with a 1:14 twist for everything I plan on using the rifle for. But, if you get a 1:11 twist (or tighter) barrel, you'll want a true long action to maximize powder space in the brass. I can't predict that a 1:11 twist 9.3x62 custom rifle will sell like hotcakes, but I predict that pushing those 320gr bullets fast enough will perk some ears and generate interest. Everybody wants a rifle that hits your shoulder like a gentle shove and smacks the game like a lighting strike. Jimro

December 12, 2016, 02:04 PM	#4
Wyosmith Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2010 Location: Shoshoni Wyoming Posts: 2,713	I am on my 2nd barrel for my 375H&H and I love the rifle and the cartridge, but working with the 9.3X62, I have to admit that if I had started this 40 years ago, I might have bought a 9.3 instead of the 375. For what I use the 375 for, I am pretty sure the 9.3 would do the same job. The 375 is outstanding in every way, but it is long and a bit heavy in comparison to the 9.3, and the 9.3 seems to do all I would ask my 375 to do. I will not ever return to Africa, so I can't really see a down side to the 9.3 on American big game. The 9.3X62 fits on the standard 30-06 length actions and the H&H needs a magnum length magazine. The 375 shoots a 270 grain bullet at about 2700 and the 9.3 shoots a 286 grain at about 2450. So the 375 shoots a bit flatter, but again for real world hunting, I can't see that the flatter trajectory of the 375 is going to help all that much, but the lighter recoil of the 9.3 may help a lot. Neither will allow you to hold "dead on" at 400 yards so you have to hold high at longer ranges. "If you can hold 14" over the back you can hold 18" over the back." Once you are holding over, flatness of trajectory isn't that important. If your skill is good enough to hold a killing group you simply hold it. If your skill is not that good, you need to get closer no mater how flat your rifle shoots. Anyway, please send me PMs if you or anyone you know would like to buy a barrel. They will probably be about $125 each from what info I have now.

December 12, 2016, 06:35 PM	#6
Wyosmith Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2010 Location: Shoshoni Wyoming Posts: 2,713	One reason to "reinvent the wheel" is the price. G.M. it talking about $125 instead of $240 and higher of the other companies. I have used their barrels a lot over the last 12 years and I have never got a bad one. But I will have to go look at your tid-bit of info. I was unaware that Douglas cut 1-10 in that caliber. I have used Shilen and Douglas for all the 9.3s I have made in the last 20 years, and I never knew I could get a 1-10"

December 13, 2016, 10:03 AM	#7
weaselfire Member Join Date: January 12, 2013 Posts: 88	FWIW, I'm not interested in a 9.3 made in the US or elsewhere. Jeff Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

December 13, 2016, 05:55 PM	#8
tobnpr Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 4,556	GM does not offer FFL discounts; Shilen, McGowen and Douglas-with the Dealer price- is significantly less than the $240 you're quoting. I use GM where accuracy isn't paramount- but their tolerances for bore dimensions are much greater than those of even the "lower" price end of match grade like Shilen, Douglas, McGowen and for the few extra bucks it's usually a no-no brainer for me (and the customer) since the labor to thread/chamber/fit a blank is so significant.

December 13, 2016, 08:32 PM	#9
Wyosmith Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2010 Location: Shoshoni Wyoming Posts: 2,713	I use GM where accuracy isn't paramount- but their tolerances for bore dimensions are much greater than those of even the "lower" price end of match grade like Shilen, Douglas, McGowen This has not been my experience at all. I have been using them now for quite some time and I have never gotten a bad one. In fact, the least accurate rifle I can remember putting together with a GM barrel shot about 1 MOA. Many many others shoot well under MOA, and 1/2 MOA is pretty common. You do however make a good point about labor in using straight blanks instead of contoured barrels. There is a LOT more time involved in using a blank because you have to shape and polish it all yourself. Personally I like having that capability because I get so many calls to do restoration on older rifles, and I like to be able to contour the barrels as I want them or as the original barrels were done. The standard contours used today differ quite a lot from the shaped used 75 to 100 years ago in many cases. If I am goign to make a modern contour I still can, but if I want to copy a German, British or Austrian contour of a rifle made in 1910 or 1920, I like to be able to do it easily. Most of the barrels I buy are just straight blanks for that reason. This probably is not the most common way for modern gunsmiths to work today however, so your point is valid.

December 28, 2016, 08:26 PM	#10
Wyosmith Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2010 Location: Shoshoni Wyoming Posts: 2,713	I got some calls today about the possibility of GM making 27" 9.3 barrels. More folks are getting interested. Remember guys, if you like the idea for future builds, give Green Mountain a call. It's how they know people are interested.

December 29, 2016, 04:24 PM	#11
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	Could try a Ruger No. 1 barrel.

December 29, 2016, 10:24 PM	#12
Wyosmith Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2010 Location: Shoshoni Wyoming Posts: 2,713	You lost me Kilimajaro. I don't understand what you mean. I have a Ruger #1 in 9.3X74R and I LOVE it. It is a very good rifle and far more accurate than I thought it would be, but this thread is about getting Green Mountain to make blanks for the gunsmiths of the country. So I am not sure what you are saying here.

December 30, 2016, 03:47 AM	#13
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	Probably means a take -off Ruger barrel. I used to re-cut a lot of take-off barrels. I have not used a lot of Green Mountain barrels, but I have to agree. The barrels I have used from them were excellent. I used to do a lot of 99 Savage work and a blank is pretty much the only game in town. Contouring a barrel to fit the original forearm of a 99 Featherweight barrel can try anyone's patience, but that is why blanks are needed for some jobs. I can't say I would be interested in a 9.3 barrel. I am pretty much down to friends or the occasional project gun. I don't even get time for that.

December 30, 2016, 11:17 AM	#14
Wyosmith Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2010 Location: Shoshoni Wyoming Posts: 2,713	Because of the type of gunsmithing I do and what I have become known for, blanks are what I used probably 9 times out of 10. I started gunsmithing in the 60s doing restoration work, and now all these years later most of my work on breach-loading arms is restoration again. So Gunplumber is correct. For most of the work on older guns, making a barrel from a blank is the best way to proceed. When I buy barrels I always buy blanks because I can make anything I want from them. In the 9.3MM bore, most of the jobs we'd have to do would be contours that are older style. If I got an order to do a re-barrel on a Rem 700 to 9.3X62, no problem from a blank. Easy in fact. But a more likely job is to re-barrel a 1920s Mauser or to do a recreation of one. You could take a contoured (and far more expensive) Shilen barrel and re-contour it to fit the style, but why would you want to? Much of the price of that barrel is because of the contour and polish, and then you'd just cut through it and do the work again. Starting from a blank is a much better way to go all around. Now these would be barrels that only gunsmiths or self-builders would want to use if they have access to a good lathe and know how to use it. So this is not something you would buy from Midway or even Brownells, and build a rifle from. This product would be a bit more advanced than that. So I understand this is something to fit a small percentage of the market. But the 9.3 bore is becoming more popular than I ever thought it would have if someone would have asked me about this 15 years ago. The 2 cartridges that seems to be coming on strong in America are the 9.3X62 first, then the 9.3X57. The "62" is the one that most people look at because it is nearly identical to the effectiveness of the 375H&H Flanged, and can be had from doing nothing more than rebarreling about any 30-06 bolt action. So you can have that level of effectiveness for far less money then the typical 375H&H. In my shop left hand hunters seem to understand this well. LH 375H&H rifles are hard to find and very expensive. L.H. 30-06 rifles are easy to find. Rebarrel a 30-06 with a 9.3X62 barrel and you have your gun. The 9.3X57 Mauser is in competition with the 358 Winchester, and that type of application, but out preforms the 358 and even the 35 Whelen in some cases, but it is super easy to do. You simply take any KAR length Mauser and re-barrel to the 9.3. Easy and pretty inexpensive. The 9.3X74R is not going to be a big mover in the USA. It's longer than a 375H&H and so it doesn't fit in magazine fed rifles as a rule, and any action that would be long enough needs to have a slant-box magazine for the rims to work. Only Rigby had Square Bridge Mausers made that way and those were made before WW1. I know of no other bolt action that could be made to work with this cartridge. Ruger chambered it in their #1 and it is a real winner in that rifle. But those are new rifles so I doubt we'll be needing to rebarrel any of them in my lifetime. I have done re-barrels on 2 German made single shot rifles in this caliber, but those are the only 2 jobs I ever did for it. (so far) It's made specifically for single shot and double barreled rifles, and such rifles are not common in the USA. The last one to look at is the 9.3X64. This one is in completion with the full power 375H&H and also needs a bit of action work, but not much in comparison to the lengthening needed to open up a GEW length Mauser to H&H size. The shell is a bit larger all over than the standard 30-06 or Mauser shell so the bolt face needs to be opened a bit, but less than the H&H size belted magnums do. It is a very good shell, but not any better than other options in the USA that are easier to get "off the shelf" so I doubt the 9.3X64 is going to get very popular here. The 375 Ruger and even the full length 375H&H are already available . So there is nothing bad to say about the 9.3X64, but it is just not likely to bump the original 375H&H or even the 375 Ruger off the top of the ladder. It has a lot of merit, but has not generated the interest of American hunters to any large degree. It would be easier to rework a Standard Mauser for this shell than to do one for the 375H&H, but reworking Mausers to get that level of power is really not necessary because you can simply buy a factory 375 here with no fuss. The 9.3X64 is going to stay in the gun cabinets of "European Rifle Fans" and gun buffs that just like "something different" and love to build their own rifles now and then, but I have serious doubts it will make many inroads into the hobby builders shops in the USA. Anyway....my thoughts........ for what ever their worth.