Single action mechanism

[frankie viljoen]

Good day
I'm a first time single action gun owner. I showed my Uberti Cattleman to a friend of mine, brand new, never been fired, while he was holding it, he started to fan the gun but he compressed the trigger with the hammer in the uncocked position and of course was not able to cock the hammer. He smashed the hammer a few times in that position.

Afterwards, the gap of the safe cock position increased with about 5 mm (0.197 inch).
Since then I have fired about 40 rounds with the firearm.

My question is:

Is the mechanism weakened by this action and is there any potential danger in using this firearm in the future?

When pulling the hammer back into safe cock it can be pushed forward very easily a little bit but the overall gap is still wider than the original safe cock position.

Any input regarding this matter will be appreciated, thanks.

[Aguila Blanca]

The Uberti Cattleman is a revolver, not a semi-automatic pistol, so I have moved this to the Revolver Forum area.

So your friend fanned your new pistol without asking? With all due respect, you need to reassess your choice of friends. I have repaired a few single action revolvers, one genuine Colt and a few clones. Without being able to physically examine your pistol, I can't diagnose whether or not it may have been damaged.

[Ricklin]

I would not be at all shy about presenting the gunsmith's bill to your "friend" it is IDIOTIC to do that. Any one with an ounce of sense would not handle another's property that way. The fact it was also a brand new revolver?? Let the guy pay for his foolishness.

[Jim Watson]

Sounds like he bent the sear tip of the trigger or the lip of the safety notch.
No matter what the exact damage is, he owes you for the repair.

[4V50 Gary]

If the cocked hammer can be pushed forward from pressure, that is pushoff. Unsafe condition.

Concur. He broke it, he needs to get it fixed (by a qualified gunsmith/warranty station).

[Dfariswheel]

Return it to the warranty center.
Hopefully they'll repair it for free.

https://www.uberti-usa.com/support/repair-request

If not, hand the bill to your friend, and find a better friend.

[44 AMP]

Your friend is A) an idiot, and B) owes you either a new gun, or at a minimum the cost of repair to your gun, AND a sincere apology.

The Cattleman uses, I believe the original Colt pattern lockwork.
so I have to ask about this,

Afterwards, the gap of the safe cock position increased with about 5 mm (0.197 inch).

Which "safety notch" are you referring to? The "quarter cock notch". or the Half Cock position??

[bamaranger]

Could powering through a trigger pull with the cylinder dragging on the odd case rims bend the mainspring?

[44 AMP]

Could powering through a trigger pull with the cylinder dragging on the odd case rims bend the mainspring?

In a Single Action revolver???

I don't see how it is possible to do that.

[Hawg]

I'm not understanding not being able to pull the hammer back from the decocked position with the trigger depressed. You can pull mine back from the fully lowered position, safety notch and even the half cock notch with it depressed but of course from the half cock notch you cant depress the trigger until the sear has disengaged.

[44 AMP]

he started to fan the gun but he compressed the trigger with the hammer in the decocked position and of course was not able to cock the hammer. He smashed the hammer a few times in that position.

I'm having some difficulty understanding what happened, probably because we are not using the same terms the same way.

The Colt SAA system has 4 hammer positions.
#1) All the way down, not cocked.
#2) The "safety notch", called the quarter cock notch by most people today, to avoid confusion.
#3) The half cock position
#4) The full cock position.

When you say "decocked position" I think of the hammer fully down. Is that what you mean? Did your friend push on the hammer when it was fully down? "He smashed the hammer a few times" with what??? his hand? something else? was the hammer fully down when he did it?? What direction was the force applied??

I also don't understand how he wasn't able to cock the hammer. Unless the cylinder can't turn, or there is internal parts breakage jamming the mechanism, there's nothing stopping you from pulling the hammer back.

[frankie viljoen]

Thanks, I understand.

[frankie viljoen]

Thanks
Will I be able to find these parts on an exploded view of the revolver?

[frankie viljoen]

I'm referring to the quarter cock notch.

Yesterday, I gently pressed forward on the hammer in the quarter cock position and the hammer moved forward to what seems to be the original position in the quarter cock position. I am judging this by the gap between the hammer and the frame. It looks normal. I think.

If I go to half cock from there, the hammer (mechanism) is crunchy but smooths out as it go into half cock. The hammer feels secure in both the half cock and full cock positions.
It is only in the quarter cock position where there is now play on the hammer. Initially, after the damage the gap between the hammer and frame was more than double in size in the the quarter cock position.

I suppose the damage is not serious but I joined the forum to get a second opinion because of my limited knowledge on this subject.
My main concern is to know if the gun is safe for future use. If, for example, the damage done to it can effect the timing, which I suppose could be quite dangerous. I might be over reacting but rather safe than sorry.
Well, when I say the damage is not serious I mean that the gun will not blow up at some stage.
The damage is serious in the sense that the life span of the mechanism has been shortened, or not?

[frankie viljoen]

"Decocked" is the wrong term. I meant uncocked. I will edit this in my original post.

He tried to fan it very fast about three times.

[frankie viljoen]

I meant "uncocked position"

[gwpercle]

Fanning is extremnely hard on the lock works ... I would bet money a little damage has been done . You might consider returning to maker for some "warranty work" ... it is a new gun and they should have replacement parts ... Plead Ignorance , I don't know what happened ... Doi Not Fan a revolver unless it has been set up and modified for fanning .
the factory parts are too easily damaged in unmodified sixguns .
Good Luck
I wpuld get it looked at and repaired with undamaged parts .
Gary

[Hawg]

Originally Posted by gwpercle

Fanning is extremnely hard on the lock works ... I would bet money a little damage has been done . You might consider returning to maker for some "warranty work" ... it is a new gun and they should have replacement parts ... Plead Ignorance , I don't know what happened ... Doi Not Fan a revolver unless it has been set up and modified for fanning .
the factory parts are too easily damaged in unmodified sixguns .
Good Luck
I wpuld get it looked at and repaired with undamaged parts .
Gary

What he said. Fanning is hard on the bolt, bolt notches and cylinder ratchet. If somebody fanned one of my guns he would never get close to any of my firearms ever again. I've already banned one guy from handling my single actions because he let the hammer down from half cock.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Hawg

What he said. Fanning is hard on the bolt, bolt notches and cylinder ratchet. If somebody fanned one of my guns he would never get close to any of my firearms ever again. I've already banned one guy from handling my single actions because he let the hammer down from half cock.

For the benefit of the OP (frankie viljoen), Hawg is referring to a common rookie mistake. As you may or may not have figured out, to be able to turn the cylinder for loading on your Cattleman, the hammer has to be in the half-cock position. Once the cylinder has been loaded (or unloaded), do NOT just release the hammer from the half-cocked position down to the uncocked position. Pull it all the way back to the full-cocked position, then let it down (gently) from there.

[bamaranger]

Was reading Manhurin thread but responded on this SA thread....sorry.

[hammie]

@Aguila Blanca & Hawg: If you have just emptied the revolver, or you are checking an empty revolver, why is it harmful to lower the hammer from half cock? All you have to do is raise the hammer enough to free the half cock notch from the sear, and then lower the hammer, with the trigger held to the rear. And for another scenario, what if you're loading six cartridges in a revolver with colt type lock work, and it has a transfer bar? One could make an argument that it is safer to lower the hammer from a shallower position. Of course, the better and safer argument is to always lower the hammer on an empty chamber, even with a transfer bar (which is what I always do).

I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to learn.

[frankie viljoen]

Thanks
I have never done that. Before I received the firearm I have watched numerous videos on the single action eg hickock 45 etc.

[44 AMP]

Once the cylinder has been loaded (or unloaded), do NOT just release the hammer from the half-cocked position down to the uncocked position. Pull it all the way back to the full-cocked position, then let it down (gently) from there.

To add a little more information. You cannot just pull the trigger and have the hammer fall from the half cock position, unless the parts are damaged/broken.
The gun is built to prevent that, because, you don't want the hammer to fall when the cylinder is not properly lined up and locked into place, so the trigger is actually "captured" by the half cock notch to prevent this from happening.

You should pull the hammer all the way back to full cock, which finishes rotating the cylinder into lining up and locking into place. THEN, holding the hammer, pull the trigger and ease it down.

when the hammer of a Colt patter SA is fully down, in contact with the frame, the firing pin tip actually protrudes slightly into the chamber. With the hammer lowered on a live round, the tip of the firing pin is in contact with the primer and the hammer is about 1/16 inch short of contact with the frame, so a blow to the hammer has the force directly transmitted to the primer, firing the round.

With the hammer in the "safety notch" it is a bit further back, the pin is off the primers, HOWEVER, its not all that safe, as a blow to the hammer in that position can force the hammer off the notch, and going forward to strike the primer.

From what I've read, Colt thought carrying the gun fully loaded with the hammer in the safety notch was a safe way to do it, in 1873. By the next year, after several accidental discharges and a few deaths, they changed the instructions with the gun to "hammer down on an empty chamber" as the safe carry method.

The "safety notch" still has a valid function, just not safe carry with a live round under the hammer. Its there to catch the hammer if the hammer slips before reaching the half cock position. PROVIDED you do not have the trigger pulled!! If you are holding the trigger back (intentionally or without knowing you are doing it) the hammer will fall all the way down from where ever it is when you release it.

If you think your gun was damaged by what your friend did, either take it to a smith who knows the Colt system and have it checked, or send it back to the maker for evaluation.

[Hawg]

Originally Posted by hammie

@Aguila Blanca & Hawg: If you have just emptied the revolver, or you are checking an empty revolver, why is it harmful to lower the hammer from half cock? All you have to do is raise the hammer enough to free the half cock notch from the sear, and then lower the hammer, with the trigger held to the rear. And for another scenario, what if you're loading six cartridges in a revolver with colt type lock work, and it has a transfer bar? One could make an argument that it is safer to lower the hammer from a shallower position. Of course, the better and safer argument is to always lower the hammer on an empty chamber, even with a transfer bar (which is what I always do).

I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to learn.

If you lower the hammer from half cock the bolt will be against the cylinder and the cylinder can turn until the bolt locks in place. If the cylinder turns the bolt will score it. If you've ever seen a single action with a scratch going around the cylinder that's what caused it. Except for Rugers that's a fault with the design. If you bring the hammer back to full cock and lower it from there the bolt will be in the bolt notch and can't turn.

[hammie]

@Hawg. I appreciate the explanation. So basically, lowering the hammer from half cock, can cause a "turn ring". Thinking back, I lower the hammer from full cock, just because it seems less awkward, and it's a habit from the "load one, skip one, load 4", sequence. However, I never thought one way or another about the half cock vs. full cock problem. I've been shooting and handling firearms since 14, and I'm now 78. It's never too late to learn, but I don't think it's fair to be called a "rookie".