.223 Hornady Tap vs 5.56 Hornady T2 Tap for HD

CodeSection · July 28, 2015, 02:19 AM

I have been reading various threads, some of which are several years old. If there is a current thread that addresses my question below, please point me to that thread.

Which is better for my HD scenario, .223 Hornady Tap or 5.56 Hornady T2 Tap both in 75 gr? I read there is a small difference between the bullets and that the velocity difference between the two may be 175-200 fps different.

My facts: 16" barrel, 1:7 twist, used with silencer. Longest open area/space in my house roughly 35 yards. My house has thick interior walls, some solid block, some drywall. Exterior solid block walls. Closest neighbor around 50 yards away.

I appreciate all suggestions!

Mobuck · July 28, 2015, 07:30 AM

I see no advantage with heavier bullets. The AR hanging above my bed is loaded with Federal 50 JHP. I don't live in town. In fact I can't even see another house so caliber and bullet choice is unencumbered.
The two Hornady offerings are different mostly in marketing as I highly doubt the bullets/loadings are different.

CodeSection · July 28, 2015, 10:17 PM

Thanks for responding. I will check out the ballistics on a lighter load...

Model12Win · July 28, 2015, 10:29 PM

A .223/5.56 rifle is tremendously overpowered for HD work. If you miss the target, that bullet will sail through your house and hit your neighbor a mile away or more.

Ditch the rifle and stick with #4 birdshot in a 12 gauge for home defense. Plenty o' thump at close range, and won't kill your neighbors.

skizzums · July 28, 2015, 10:48 PM

the T2 is a slightly higher pressure than the TAP .223. i think heavyweight .233 is a fine defese round depending in your living situation. but i do think the lighter/faster bullets have even more devastating effect on extreme close range targets and are much safer. 50gr VMAX is always a great choice. they also make TAP in a 55gr. heavyweight's give better penetration, but your talking an almost 3000fps round, so who really cares, all the expanding rounds are going to be insanely effective. but only you know your house and locations of neigbors and roads, so think about whats best for you

my ar is loaded with 50gr Hornady GMX with a couple "penetrators" in the bottom. but it stays in the safe, i have a 9mm AR at the ready with 90gr XTP's that should fragment rapidly through barriers. but i am ging to grab my pistol unless something out of the movies happens at my house, not likely

CodeSection · July 29, 2015, 12:45 AM

I appreciate the responses. I have very large open areas in my house that I feel would be better suited using my Tavor rather than my .40 Sig.

With that in mind, just quickly reading Hornady's TAP ballistics and gelatin performance, it appears the 55 gr penetrates wallboard at 17" vs the 62 gr penetrating wallboard at 12.75". I suspect this is due to a higher velocity of the 55 gr (~183 fps with 16" barrel).

So then when I read the 75 gr T2, it shows wallboard penetration at 10". The .223 Tap shows wallboard penatration at 11.75".

Based upon Hornady's figures, wouldn't the 75 gr T2 be better suited to reduce wallboard penetration?

skizzums · July 29, 2015, 01:06 AM

based on those figures, absolutely. bullet construction i everythig, and if that is specifically tailored to do what they claim, then by all means. take hornady's word for it before the internet forums for sure. if you get to shoot outdoors, ou may want to oserve your own testing, i piece of wallboard doesnt cost much, and can be cut to dozens of squares. i am very suprised to hear that the 55gr tap penetrates more than the 75gr, i thought they were of similar construction, and conventional wisdom disagrees, there must be something pretty remakable about the T2. like i said before, if your housing situation allows for it, by all means a rifle is better than a pistol at just about everything, especially a short bullpuppy. my housing situation also allows for a rifle, but i have many sharp corners and closed hallways, which is why i choose a 5" AR, probably similar in length to your tavor. m neighbor aren't very close and are not right next to me, and they live at a higher plane than my house, dosn't mean i don't have to be careful, as there are a couple areas that would put me shooting, at least close to, my neighbors house. if they are saying 10" through wallboard, that's better than most pistol rounds anyways

Captains1911 · July 30, 2015, 10:44 PM

Quote:

A .223/5.56 rifle is tremendously overpowered for HD work. If you miss the target, that bullet will sail through your house and hit your neighbor a mile away or more.

Ditch the rifle and stick with #4 birdshot in a 12 gauge for home defense. Plenty o' thump at close range, and won't kill your neighbors.

Absolutely incorrect. Check your facts, this myth has been disproven time and time again. 223/5.56 has been proven to penetrate walls less than common handgun calibers and buckshot, which is why it is such a popular recommendation and choice for home defense.

rickyrick · July 30, 2015, 10:57 PM

Anything .223 would be damaging at defensive range.

CodeSection · July 31, 2015, 03:17 AM

I found this on Hornady's site..."Due to the longer duration of peak pressure produced by Superformance™, the post peak/declining port pressure at common carbine and mid-length gas port locations is still higher than that produced by standard propellant."

And ...."the gun is still in the process or firing while it’s trying to extract the cartridge case."

http://www.hornady.com/ammunition/su...rated-firearms

Has anyone used Hornady's T2 TAP in a Tavor?

Theohazard · July 31, 2015, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Model12Win

A .223/5.56 rifle is tremendously overpowered for HD work. If you miss the target, that bullet will sail through your house and hit your neighbor a mile away or more.

Ditch the rifle and stick with #4 birdshot in a 12 gauge for home defense. Plenty o' thump at close range, and won't kill your neighbors.

Stop trying to troll people. You yourself stated less than two weeks ago that a .223 hollow point is a good round for home defense because it limits over-penetration:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...7&postcount=17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Model12Win

a lightweight, high velocity bullet that will fragment very easily and not over-penetrate much like the various .223/5.56 defensive loads.

In that thread you were hoping that a .308 TAP load would also limit penetration like the .223 does. Now you're repeating the myth that a .223 defensive load will over-penetrate? I think you're just trying to troll us.

skizzums · July 31, 2015, 05:26 AM

Yeah model12, I generally enjoy your discussions, bit you seem to have outrageously flip flopped since just a couple days ago, unless you picked pit some of the advicw of your thread and took it as gosphel.

Look peoples, we can all get advice(opinions) from folks on here about this highly debated subject. But this stuff isn't hard to just go pit and test on your own. I solemnly swear that the next time I'm out, hopefully Sunday morn if not then thursday, I will bring some drywall, my 9mm and my ar. That way I can give the best advice possible next time.

jmr40 · July 31, 2015, 06:35 AM

Quote:

A .223/5.56 rifle is tremendously overpowered for HD work. If you miss the target, that bullet will sail through your house and hit your neighbor a mile away or more.

Ditch the rifle and stick with #4 birdshot in a 12 gauge for home defense. Plenty o' thump at close range, and won't kill your neighbors.

Some of the worst advice I've ever seen on the internet. And that is saying a lot.

A shotgun with buckshot is a viable choice, as would be a 223/5.56. Neither will go far after hitting building material. If they hit nothing the 223 will travel farther, but buckshot will travel far enough to do damage several houses away.

#4 birdshot is unacceptable.

I really like the 223/5.56 option better and most any expanding bullet of any weight should be fine.

Hamour · August 1, 2015, 01:50 AM

Why all the new rounds to solve a problem that was solved long ago?

Any name brand 223 55 gr soft point load will solve social problems and limit over penetration.
If you live in rural settings I would go with the old Win 64gr power point as it will do as well for hogs as it will for people.

Another good choice is the old standby 12ga with rifle sights riot gun. Load # 1 buck (my preference) or # 4 buck. Keep 5 rounds of slugs on a stock side saddle so you can load a distance round if needed.

What ever weapon you choose, shoot some deer or hogs with it, see how your load of choice works and get efficient with that weapon. If you are not happy with the speed it dispatches an animal adjust your load or weapon until you are.

From my experience the 223 with a 55 gr soft nose gives the best balance for lethality and penetration in an apartment setting.

Stay Safe

CodeSection · August 1, 2015, 02:14 AM

Some very good advice. Thank you to all for trying to help!

I do live in a rural setting on 4.5 acres. One neighbor is about 50 yards away, while others are about 175-200 yards away. I will try various loads, including soft points and see which function well in my Tavor and which "gives the best balance for lethality and penatration". I will investigate at the same time the ballistics in order to try to find a load that will also limit drywall penatration.

Again, thanks for taking the time to respond!

amd6547 · August 1, 2015, 07:21 AM

I'm using the PRVI 75gn load in my HD carbine. Shoots great, plus it's cheap enough that I can afford to actually shoot it. Just put 20rds through my carbine yesterday.
I keep a 20rd Lancer mag full, and a second mag full of M193.

wnycollector · August 1, 2015, 08:44 AM

Another fan of the Prvi 75gr OTM for home defense. Here is a link to a seven page discussion of Prvi 75.

dakota.potts · August 1, 2015, 11:13 AM

I vote for lighter and faster at close range for home defense. I also prefer polymer tip over soft point or hollow point. My AR in the gun cabinet is loaded with 60 grain V max from HPR. Ideally I would have gone for a 55 grain, but I bought it to also use for hog hunting and I settled on the heavier compromise round for that purpose.

If you're not worried about over penetration though, there's been some really interesting research done on the lethality of heavy .223 rounds such as the 75 gr OTM the military uses. I think you can get this from Black Hills

dakota.potts · August 1, 2015, 11:17 AM

Also, I'll post a link when I get on my computer to a report and autopsy from a guy who ambushed several police officers and got into a prolonged firefight. He was shot something like 13 times with an AR15 and several times with a handgun, and ended up taking a shot to the ankle which dropped him long enough to wrestle him into handcuffs.

He took shots to the arm, hips, lower stomach, chest and throat. One shot collapsed a lung. He still put up a massive fight and died later on the way to the hospital. They determined that the Hornady TAP rounds didn't perform as expected and lacked terminal performance. Just one case though. Could it happen with any round? Probably. Just something to think about

Captains1911 · August 1, 2015, 11:30 AM

^^^ This just goes to show that nothing is a guarantee. Still, that case represents a rare exception.

rickyrick · August 1, 2015, 11:32 AM

My experience with hunting hogs at close range with .223 is this: light and fast bullets works best. The will all work, but high velocity rules at close range.

Panfisher · August 1, 2015, 12:29 PM

My AR is stuffed with 55 grain HP, not sure which ones, whatever bullets were on clearance. All reloads, work fine on little critters like coyotes and stray cats, I expect they would work on 2 legged as well if needed.

FITASC · August 1, 2015, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Longest open area/space in my house roughly 35 yards.

105 feet is a HUGE house....................

Still, a full choked shotgun can easily handle that distance...........

Airborne Falcon · August 27, 2015, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Which is better for my HD scenario, .223 Hornady Tap or 5.56 Hornady T2 Tap both in 75 gr? I read there is a small difference between the bullets and that the velocity difference between the two may be 175-200 fps different.

It's six of one, half dozen of the other for most people. Velocity is not the biggest concern indoors ... penetration is, or rather over-penetration.

For that you want a frangible.

Quote:

My facts: 16" barrel, 1:7 twist, used with silencer. Longest open area/space in my house roughly 35 yards. My house has thick interior walls, some solid block, some drywall. Exterior solid block walls. Closest neighbor around 50 yards away.

Silencer or suppressor?

35 yards? Seriously? That's 105 feet ... you have an open area/space in your home 105' long?

I live in my wife's and mine 5,240 square foot home and my largest straight-a-way is 20 yards (60') ... I just shot it with the laser rangefinder with my back pinned against one wall and shooting through the smallest opening out of a room, through another room and down a hallway. It's a shot I would never have to make, not ever.

My point is ... you house is obviously too large.

Secondly, don't worry about longest anything when it comes to home defense. Rather, think about what is on the other side of the walls, from which points of entry you might expect to encounter intruders and from what firing position you intend to mount your defense.

You are over thinking your your ammo.

With regard to ammo, have you thought about low recoil? Reliability? Accuracy is not going to be an issue because if you get in a firefight inside your home lead is going to fly and both your attacker and you will be in the total dark ... because your eyes will likely be closed. Your suppressor should take care of excessive muzzle flash if it is night time.

IMHO a M4 carbine is not the best choice for home defense against most intruders in a normal break-in or forced entry situation.

Theohazard · August 27, 2015, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airborne Falcon

Quote:

Originally Posted by CodeSection

Which is better for my HD scenario, .223 Hornady Tap or 5.56 Hornady T2 Tap both in 75 gr? I read there is a small difference between the bullets and that the velocity difference between the two may be 175-200 fps different.

It's six of one, half dozen of the other for most people. Velocity is not the biggest concern indoors ... penetration is, or rather over-penetration.

For that you want a frangible.

Don't use frangible ammo, use TAP or other lead-core JHP or SP ammo. There are two kinds of frangible .223 ammo, the first is the special defensive lightweight stuff like RCBD and the like. This stuff tends to perform unreliably and not always penetrate far enough. And then there's the frangible training ammo that's designed to break up when it hits steel; the problem is that it doesn't tend to break up reliably in softer materiel like drywall or flesh.

On the other hand, a more traditional. 223 defensive round like Hornady TAP will fragment explosively in flesh and yet still penetrate far enough to be effective, and it will also tend to fragment in building materiel like drywall, which limits its over-penetration compared to defensive handgun or shotgun ammo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airborne Falcon

Quote:

Originally Posted by CodeSection

silencer

Silencer or suppressor?

It looks to me like he wrote "silencer".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airborne Falcon

IMHO a M4 carbine is not the best choice for home defense against most intruders in a normal break-in or forced entry situation.

Compared to what? Compared to a handgun, an AR-15 is less portable and quite a bit louder, but that can be much less of an issue if you have a silencer on it. And the advantage is far more power, lower wall penetration (if you use JHPs or SPs), and usually higher capacity.

And compared to a shotgun, a quality AR-15 is a superior HD weapon in several ways: It's usually shorter, recoil is a lot lower, capacity is a lot higher, penetration through walls is far less (if you use JHPs or SPs), and it's more reliable.

Is an AR-15 the best choice for HD in every situation? No, of course not; no gun is. But it's an excellent choice, especially if you use medium- to lightweight JHP or SP ammo. In my opinion, 75 gr. TAP is a little heavy if you're trying to minimize penetration through walls, but it's not a bad choice at all.

And, keep in mind that ALL ammo will still be potentially deadly after passing through walls; it's just that medium- to lightweight JHP or SP .223 ammo tends to pass through fewer walls than almost anything else.

July 28, 2015, 02:19 AM	#1
CodeSection Member Join Date: October 31, 2014 Posts: 86	.223 Hornady Tap vs 5.56 Hornady T2 Tap for HD I have been reading various threads, some of which are several years old. If there is a current thread that addresses my question below, please point me to that thread. Which is better for my HD scenario, .223 Hornady Tap or 5.56 Hornady T2 Tap both in 75 gr? I read there is a small difference between the bullets and that the velocity difference between the two may be 175-200 fps different. My facts: 16" barrel, 1:7 twist, used with silencer. Longest open area/space in my house roughly 35 yards. My house has thick interior walls, some solid block, some drywall. Exterior solid block walls. Closest neighbor around 50 yards away. I appreciate all suggestions!

July 28, 2015, 10:48 PM	#5
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	the T2 is a slightly higher pressure than the TAP .223. i think heavyweight .233 is a fine defese round depending in your living situation. but i do think the lighter/faster bullets have even more devastating effect on extreme close range targets and are much safer. 50gr VMAX is always a great choice. they also make TAP in a 55gr. heavyweight's give better penetration, but your talking an almost 3000fps round, so who really cares, all the expanding rounds are going to be insanely effective. but only you know your house and locations of neigbors and roads, so think about whats best for you my ar is loaded with 50gr Hornady GMX with a couple "penetrators" in the bottom. but it stays in the safe, i have a 9mm AR at the ready with 90gr XTP's that should fragment rapidly through barriers. but i am ging to grab my pistol unless something out of the movies happens at my house, not likely Last edited by skizzums; July 28, 2015 at 10:54 PM.

July 30, 2015, 10:57 PM	#9
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,387	Anything .223 would be damaging at defensive range. __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

August 1, 2015, 07:21 AM	#16
amd6547 Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Posts: 2,320	I'm using the PRVI 75gn load in my HD carbine. Shoots great, plus it's cheap enough that I can afford to actually shoot it. Just put 20rds through my carbine yesterday. I keep a 20rd Lancer mag full, and a second mag full of M193. __________________ The past is gone...the future may never happen. Be Here Now.

August 1, 2015, 11:32 AM	#21
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,387	My experience with hunting hogs at close range with .223 is this: light and fast bullets works best. The will all work, but high velocity rules at close range. __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

July 28, 2015, 07:30 AM	#2
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	I see no advantage with heavier bullets. The AR hanging above my bed is loaded with Federal 50 JHP. I don't live in town. In fact I can't even see another house so caliber and bullet choice is unencumbered. The two Hornady offerings are different mostly in marketing as I highly doubt the bullets/loadings are different.

July 28, 2015, 10:17 PM	#3
CodeSection Member Join Date: October 31, 2014 Posts: 86	Thanks for responding. I will check out the ballistics on a lighter load...

July 28, 2015, 10:29 PM	#4
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	A .223/5.56 rifle is tremendously overpowered for HD work. If you miss the target, that bullet will sail through your house and hit your neighbor a mile away or more. Ditch the rifle and stick with #4 birdshot in a 12 gauge for home defense. Plenty o' thump at close range, and won't kill your neighbors. Last edited by Model12Win; July 29, 2015 at 08:34 PM.

July 29, 2015, 12:45 AM	#6
CodeSection Member Join Date: October 31, 2014 Posts: 86	I appreciate the responses. I have very large open areas in my house that I feel would be better suited using my Tavor rather than my .40 Sig. With that in mind, just quickly reading Hornady's TAP ballistics and gelatin performance, it appears the 55 gr penetrates wallboard at 17" vs the 62 gr penetrating wallboard at 12.75". I suspect this is due to a higher velocity of the 55 gr (~183 fps with 16" barrel). So then when I read the 75 gr T2, it shows wallboard penetration at 10". The .223 Tap shows wallboard penatration at 11.75". Based upon Hornady's figures, wouldn't the 75 gr T2 be better suited to reduce wallboard penetration?

July 29, 2015, 01:06 AM	#7
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	based on those figures, absolutely. bullet construction i everythig, and if that is specifically tailored to do what they claim, then by all means. take hornady's word for it before the internet forums for sure. if you get to shoot outdoors, ou may want to oserve your own testing, i piece of wallboard doesnt cost much, and can be cut to dozens of squares. i am very suprised to hear that the 55gr tap penetrates more than the 75gr, i thought they were of similar construction, and conventional wisdom disagrees, there must be something pretty remakable about the T2. like i said before, if your housing situation allows for it, by all means a rifle is better than a pistol at just about everything, especially a short bullpuppy. my housing situation also allows for a rifle, but i have many sharp corners and closed hallways, which is why i choose a 5" AR, probably similar in length to your tavor. m neighbor aren't very close and are not right next to me, and they live at a higher plane than my house, dosn't mean i don't have to be careful, as there are a couple areas that would put me shooting, at least close to, my neighbors house. if they are saying 10" through wallboard, that's better than most pistol rounds anyways

July 31, 2015, 03:17 AM	#10
CodeSection Member Join Date: October 31, 2014 Posts: 86	I found this on Hornady's site..."Due to the longer duration of peak pressure produced by Superformance™, the post peak/declining port pressure at common carbine and mid-length gas port locations is still higher than that produced by standard propellant." And ...."the gun is still in the process or firing while it’s trying to extract the cartridge case." http://www.hornady.com/ammunition/su...rated-firearms Has anyone used Hornady's T2 TAP in a Tavor?

July 31, 2015, 05:26 AM	#12
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	Yeah model12, I generally enjoy your discussions, bit you seem to have outrageously flip flopped since just a couple days ago, unless you picked pit some of the advicw of your thread and took it as gosphel. Look peoples, we can all get advice(opinions) from folks on here about this highly debated subject. But this stuff isn't hard to just go pit and test on your own. I solemnly swear that the next time I'm out, hopefully Sunday morn if not then thursday, I will bring some drywall, my 9mm and my ar. That way I can give the best advice possible next time.

August 1, 2015, 01:50 AM	#14
Hamour Member Join Date: September 9, 2007 Posts: 68	Why all the new rounds to solve a problem that was solved long ago? Any name brand 223 55 gr soft point load will solve social problems and limit over penetration. If you live in rural settings I would go with the old Win 64gr power point as it will do as well for hogs as it will for people. Another good choice is the old standby 12ga with rifle sights riot gun. Load # 1 buck (my preference) or # 4 buck. Keep 5 rounds of slugs on a stock side saddle so you can load a distance round if needed. What ever weapon you choose, shoot some deer or hogs with it, see how your load of choice works and get efficient with that weapon. If you are not happy with the speed it dispatches an animal adjust your load or weapon until you are. From my experience the 223 with a 55 gr soft nose gives the best balance for lethality and penetration in an apartment setting. Stay Safe

August 1, 2015, 02:14 AM	#15
CodeSection Member Join Date: October 31, 2014 Posts: 86	Some very good advice. Thank you to all for trying to help! I do live in a rural setting on 4.5 acres. One neighbor is about 50 yards away, while others are about 175-200 yards away. I will try various loads, including soft points and see which function well in my Tavor and which "gives the best balance for lethality and penatration". I will investigate at the same time the ballistics in order to try to find a load that will also limit drywall penatration. Again, thanks for taking the time to respond!

August 1, 2015, 08:44 AM	#17
wnycollector Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2007 Posts: 1,996	Another fan of the Prvi 75gr OTM for home defense. Here is a link to a seven page discussion of Prvi 75.

August 1, 2015, 11:13 AM	#18
dakota.potts Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2013 Location: Keystone Heights, Florida Posts: 3,084	I vote for lighter and faster at close range for home defense. I also prefer polymer tip over soft point or hollow point. My AR in the gun cabinet is loaded with 60 grain V max from HPR. Ideally I would have gone for a 55 grain, but I bought it to also use for hog hunting and I settled on the heavier compromise round for that purpose. If you're not worried about over penetration though, there's been some really interesting research done on the lethality of heavy .223 rounds such as the 75 gr OTM the military uses. I think you can get this from Black Hills

August 1, 2015, 11:17 AM	#19
dakota.potts Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2013 Location: Keystone Heights, Florida Posts: 3,084	Also, I'll post a link when I get on my computer to a report and autopsy from a guy who ambushed several police officers and got into a prolonged firefight. He was shot something like 13 times with an AR15 and several times with a handgun, and ended up taking a shot to the ankle which dropped him long enough to wrestle him into handcuffs. He took shots to the arm, hips, lower stomach, chest and throat. One shot collapsed a lung. He still put up a massive fight and died later on the way to the hospital. They determined that the Hornady TAP rounds didn't perform as expected and lacked terminal performance. Just one case though. Could it happen with any round? Probably. Just something to think about

August 1, 2015, 11:30 AM	#20
Captains1911 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2009 Location: West of the Blue Ridge, VA Posts: 697	^^^ This just goes to show that nothing is a guarantee. Still, that case represents a rare exception.

August 1, 2015, 12:29 PM	#22
Panfisher Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2010 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,337	My AR is stuffed with 55 grain HP, not sure which ones, whatever bullets were on clearance. All reloads, work fine on little critters like coyotes and stray cats, I expect they would work on 2 legged as well if needed.