Cleaning Brass

DaggerBlade · January 20, 2015, 06:01 PM

I am a newbie here, my name is Frank. Now that I have introduced myself here goes. I started reloading about 1980 but haven't reloaded since about 1985. I started going back to the range so I am going to get back into reloading. I used to polish brass in a vibrating polisher, a Vibra Tek with walnut shells and jewelers rouge. I bought a new Lyman Turbo 1200 and ordered some jewelers rouge from a guy on eBay. This is his instructions for polishing brass.
1. To clean and polish brass.
A. Add 1/2 to 1 Tbs polishing compound to 4 lbs of media.
B. Add 1/8 to 1/4 cups of mineral spirits per 4 lbs of media, to tumbler/vibrator ( this step is very important as it not only accelerates the cleaning process it keeps dust down) Mineral spirits evaporates over time, so add more each cleaning session.
C. Run this mixture for about 5 minutes to disperse compound and mineral spirits throughout the media.
D. Add your brass and let it rip!
I have some concerns about B. Anybody here use this method. Sorry for being so longwinded. Thanks for any help.

603Country · January 20, 2015, 07:28 PM

I'm a basics kind of guy. I use crushed/ground walnut shells and the only thing I add to that is tarnished brass. I don't see the need for the brass to be shined any further than that.

jepp2 · January 20, 2015, 10:58 PM

I do add OMS (odorless mineral spirits) to walnut media and it significantly quickens the cleaning time. But the quantity you listed seems to be way too much. I just use a squeeze bottle to add and make a couple of passes around. If you add too much, the media stops turning over. And the 1/4 cup would seem to be too much.

4runnerman · January 20, 2015, 11:24 PM

I use lizzard bedding and 2 tablespoons of nufinish car wax. I add more car wax when they seem to not be as shiny. Shiny brass means nothing,but being I am tumbling any how why not make it shiny?. Don't make any extra work to do it.

hanno · January 20, 2015, 11:59 PM

Ground walnut (sold as lizard bedding at the pet stores), a capful of Nu-Finish, a splash of mineral spirits and a used dryer sheet to help keep down the dust.

chiefr · January 21, 2015, 12:41 AM

Used a similar mixture and tumbled brass for many years. Switched to SS pins and haven't looked back since.

hartcreek · January 21, 2015, 12:50 AM

My media is a mix of tumbling media crushed walnut and corncob lizard bedding I do not ad anything other then dirty brass. When my media gets dirty I soak in in laundry soap and rince it on/in a screen tub that I made and let it air dry. Havent bought new media in twenty years.

DaggerBlade · January 21, 2015, 03:34 PM

Thanks for all the reply. I think I will try a few and see which works best for me.

kealil · January 21, 2015, 04:14 PM

Hello,
Personally I no longer use vibratory tumbler because I switched to stainless steel media in a rebel tumbler. I’ll never go back as long as I have the option but I digress. When I used Vibratory Tumbling, I utilized Corncob media and walnut with some nufinish from the automotive aisle in Walmart. It made the brass really shiny, cut down on the dust, and just worked. I personally have never used Jewelers Rouge before though.

MarkGlazer · January 21, 2015, 04:18 PM

Zilla in the vibrating cleaner for no less than 2.5 hours. Everything comes out clean and shiny, including the flash holes.

Good luck.

**Unclenick** · January 21, 2015, 04:47 PM

Mark,

I plead ignorance. What is Zilla?

DaggerBlade,

I've got one of the old VibraTek's too. Large version. It seems to works as well as the Lyman if you use the same media. Just noisier.

condor bravo · January 21, 2015, 05:34 PM

Zilla is a brand name for English lizard ground walnut shells litter. I also mix the Nu-Car auto polish with the litter and contrary to what most advise, only one hour of tumbling rifle brass does the job quite well.

Emerson Biggies · January 21, 2015, 08:23 PM

no need to add a chemical factory to the mix. If you have mineral spirits, just put some in a spray bottle and give the media two or three spritzes while the vibrator is running, then add the brass. Voila- brass is cleaned just fine.

m&p45acp10+1 · January 21, 2015, 08:38 PM

I am a keep it simple kind of person.

I use a vibratory cleaner with walnut shell blasting media. ($25 pound bag was less than $30 at HF 2 years ago when I picked up the last bag. The one before that lasted 3 years, and did several tons (literal) of brass.

I add in a couple of cleaning patches with Nu Finnish Car Polish (Part stores, and Walmart carry it. Work great for brass. Awful for cars.) I add in a used dryer sheet cut into 2 inch squares. Run for 5 minutes open. If it looks clumped I put the lid on, and let it go another 5 minutes or so.

Brass comes out clean enough for me to inspect, read head stamps, and lube for sizing in an hour or two. After sizing I put the brass back in for another hour. It will come out pretty darn clean, and have a good amount of shine on it.

For hand gun brass I only tumble once if it is dirty bucket brass.

4runnerman · January 21, 2015, 09:18 PM

unclenick- Zilla is also a very fine crushed Walnut. Very rare for it to get stuck in primer holes. I found the fine crush seems to clean faster also.

MarkGlazer · January 21, 2015, 10:21 PM

Thanks guys for the quick response regarding Zilla. There is another aspect ... it's CHEAP. Compare what the LGS charges for "crushed walnut" to any pet store, it's a nice savings and a single bag will last quite awhile. I'm still on my original purchase and it's only been 2 years since I began loading.

Tinbucket · January 21, 2015, 11:47 PM

I use the old Lyman Viberator with wallnut shells and final polish corn cobs.
I find some polish remains on the brass. That makes cases eject a little too fast. Cleaning the die lube off is a second operation.
I have carbide dies even in .223 but still have to use some lube on .223 and all other rifle cartridges.
I was spraying carb cleaner on the shells in a tray carefully so not to get near the neck and bullet.
Not a good way. The walnut hulls and corn cob media have are both treated so I need to find some that isn't.
I've been looking at the new ones that use a liquid media.

9mmSkeeter · January 22, 2015, 12:14 PM

Call me simple but I use Iosso's case cleaning kit - it's a 1 gallon pail, a mesh bag, and comes with one gallon of brass cleaner. That got used up quickly and replacements are expensive, so I bought some Frankfort Arsenal Brass Cleaner to replace it. You dilute it, it's cheaper, and lasts forever. It works better too. You put the brass in the mesh bag, put the bag into the solution in the bucket, seal the bucket, slosh it around for 30 seconds, and leave it sit for 10 min. You drain the bag into the bucket, then wash the remaining solution from the bag/brass running hot water through it in a sink.

Wring the bag out, dump onto an old cookie pan, and set your oven to 200*F for 5 minutes. Or stick in front of a heater.

Never saw the economy in buying a turbo cleaner or a tumbler. This gets my brass clean, sometimes shiny, but clean being the important factor here.

schmellba99 · January 22, 2015, 01:33 PM

I used to use the pet store crushed walnut, NuFinish and a capfull or two of mineral spirits. Worked well enough, though anybody that tries to tell me you can get clean and shiny brass in an hour is either starting with clean and shiny brass, or we have vastly different definitions of what clean and shiny is. Never was able to get anything acceptable in under about 7 or 8 hours.

I use SSTL now. Have 2 separate Lyman tumblers with two bowls each that are collecting dust now. Should probably sell one of them to clear some space because it simply will never get used again.

mikld · January 22, 2015, 01:45 PM

Don't get too involved or overthink tumbling brass. It's 99% cosmetic. FWIW; I reloaded for 12 years before I got a tumbler. I just wiped each case to remove any grit or grease as I inspected it. Nope, no worn out or scratched dies, and yep I could spot defects in the cases. Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-tumbling (I find it a lot of work 'cause I'm the only one to ever see my reloads and nobody to impress), I just think a lot importance is misplaced on some reloading steps for new reloaders. Bright shiny, virgin looking brass ain't gonna make your ammo any safer or shoot any better. I'd say concentrate wholly on the reloading process, step by step, and just consider the "extra" steps "extra" and not necessary now...

I hung out at a police range in the mid sixties and noticed a couple guys that shot a lot. I also saw them picking up all their empties and the ammo they were shooting was brown. They had excellent targets (I saw some with one hole about 2" in diameter after mebbe 50 shots from their 1911s). These guys were the first reloaders I encountered, and they didn't tumble their brass. Ideas have changed and today it seems that bright shiny, virgin looking brass has become a necessity even for new reloaders...

P.S.; I do tumble/polish my 45 ACP brass and my 30-06 Garand brass 'cause it's easier to find the empties flung out of my guns in the dirt, rocks, and trash at the local "range".

. When I do polish/tumble brass I don't add a "formula" of additives/solvents to my tumbling media, I just use corn cob blast media with an occasional teaspoonful of auto polish. http://www.drillspot.com/products/49...bs_blast_media

condor bravo · January 22, 2015, 02:42 PM

I agree with mikld that too much unnecessary emphasis is placed on cleaning/tumbling brass. Dull brass seems to shoot just as well as clean brass. One thing that I don't recall as ever being mentioned is difference in tumbling time whether rifle or handgun cases are being tumbled. I would think that handgun brass probably does require more tumbling time than rifle to achieve the same degree of polishing. Rifle brass tumbled with lizard media and Nu-Finish auto polish only requires about an hour to again looking respectable.

schmellba99 · January 22, 2015, 03:22 PM

I don't think anybody argues that tumbling to a point where it is shiny and new looking is a necessity.

I tumble because I like clean things - I like my brass clean, my dies clean and as a result it leaves my equipment clean. Clean equipment runs better than dirty equipment. Clean equipment is more consistent than dirty equipment. It's more of a pride thing for me I suppose than anything.

And clean brass is a lot easier to inspect in a lot less time for defects than dirty brass is, so there is that aspect. If I'm going to put the little bit of time and effort required to clean my brass, might as well go ahead and actually get it clean and shiny.

CenterFireBrass.com · January 22, 2015, 03:35 PM

The cheapest way to go for cleaning media is to buy form Grainger. 14 to 20 grit seems to do good as it gets into the cases better because its smaller. Also the cost is around $1/lb or media, but you have to buy in bulk 40lb bags. I have used media additives and the likes and I find that it really is not worth it unless the media is really dirty, in which case it's just time for more media. Happy Shooting!!!

kealil · January 22, 2015, 04:05 PM

I agree that there is too much emphasis placed on “virgin” level clean brass. It is not necessary. But For me as an individual, I take pride in not only making reliable, accurate ammunition but also making it presentable. Beyond the pride in good work there is reason to tumble brass and to use a method that cleans the inside fairly well because it makes inspection of said brass easier. It is a lot easier to spot creases and potential weak points when there is no dirt or tarnish to distort the brass.

Just my .02

MarkGlazer · January 22, 2015, 10:29 PM

For me the question isn't about having shinny brass, rather it was about not having to clean out flash holes during the process. Call it a pet peeve if you will but I grew tired of having to take the time to inspect every flash hole and clean accordingly.

Last year there was a running post from multiple people about accidently leaving their vibrating cleaners running for an extraordinary length of time. The end result was incredibly clean brass, including and especially the flash hole. So, I tested the theory and let my brass go from 1 hour to 2.5 hours. Wallah, no more flash hole junk to clean out. I do use Zilla exclusively, no other adders such as Nu Finish. Nothing wrong with that you understand, just no need to spend the money.

PS - I lied. I also like the shinny brass.

January 20, 2015, 06:01 PM	#1
DaggerBlade Junior Member Join Date: January 18, 2015 Posts: 9	Cleaning Brass I am a newbie here, my name is Frank. Now that I have introduced myself here goes. I started reloading about 1980 but haven't reloaded since about 1985. I started going back to the range so I am going to get back into reloading. I used to polish brass in a vibrating polisher, a Vibra Tek with walnut shells and jewelers rouge. I bought a new Lyman Turbo 1200 and ordered some jewelers rouge from a guy on eBay. This is his instructions for polishing brass. 1. To clean and polish brass. A. Add 1/2 to 1 Tbs polishing compound to 4 lbs of media. B. Add 1/8 to 1/4 cups of mineral spirits per 4 lbs of media, to tumbler/vibrator ( this step is very important as it not only accelerates the cleaning process it keeps dust down) Mineral spirits evaporates over time, so add more each cleaning session. C. Run this mixture for about 5 minutes to disperse compound and mineral spirits throughout the media. D. Add your brass and let it rip! I have some concerns about B. Anybody here use this method. Sorry for being so longwinded. Thanks for any help.

January 20, 2015, 10:58 PM	#3
jepp2 Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Loveland, CO Posts: 1,476	I do add OMS (odorless mineral spirits) to walnut media and it significantly quickens the cleaning time. But the quantity you listed seems to be way too much. I just use a squeeze bottle to add and make a couple of passes around. If you add too much, the media stops turning over. And the 1/4 cup would seem to be too much. __________________ NRA Benefactor Life member

January 21, 2015, 04:47 PM	#11
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,743	Mark, I plead ignorance. What is Zilla? DaggerBlade, I've got one of the old VibraTek's too. Large version. It seems to works as well as the Lyman if you use the same media. Just noisier. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 21, 2015, 05:34 PM	#12
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	Zilla is a brand name for English lizard ground walnut shells litter. I also mix the Nu-Car auto polish with the litter and contrary to what most advise, only one hour of tumbling rifle brass does the job quite well. Last edited by condor bravo; January 21, 2015 at 06:23 PM.

January 21, 2015, 08:38 PM	#14
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,947	I am a keep it simple kind of person. I use a vibratory cleaner with walnut shell blasting media. ($25 pound bag was less than $30 at HF 2 years ago when I picked up the last bag. The one before that lasted 3 years, and did several tons (literal) of brass. I add in a couple of cleaning patches with Nu Finnish Car Polish (Part stores, and Walmart carry it. Work great for brass. Awful for cars.) I add in a used dryer sheet cut into 2 inch squares. Run for 5 minutes open. If it looks clumped I put the lid on, and let it go another 5 minutes or so. Brass comes out clean enough for me to inspect, read head stamps, and lube for sizing in an hour or two. After sizing I put the brass back in for another hour. It will come out pretty darn clean, and have a good amount of shine on it. For hand gun brass I only tumble once if it is dirty bucket brass. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

January 20, 2015, 07:28 PM	#2
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 4,039	I'm a basics kind of guy. I use crushed/ground walnut shells and the only thing I add to that is tarnished brass. I don't see the need for the brass to be shined any further than that.

January 20, 2015, 11:24 PM	#4
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	I use lizzard bedding and 2 tablespoons of nufinish car wax. I add more car wax when they seem to not be as shiny. Shiny brass means nothing,but being I am tumbling any how why not make it shiny?. Don't make any extra work to do it.

January 20, 2015, 11:59 PM	#5
hanno Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2008 Posts: 394	Ground walnut (sold as lizard bedding at the pet stores), a capful of Nu-Finish, a splash of mineral spirits and a used dryer sheet to help keep down the dust.

January 21, 2015, 12:41 AM	#6
chiefr Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: AR Posts: 1,401	Used a similar mixture and tumbled brass for many years. Switched to SS pins and haven't looked back since.

January 21, 2015, 12:50 AM	#7
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	My media is a mix of tumbling media crushed walnut and corncob lizard bedding I do not ad anything other then dirty brass. When my media gets dirty I soak in in laundry soap and rince it on/in a screen tub that I made and let it air dry. Havent bought new media in twenty years.

January 21, 2015, 03:34 PM	#8
DaggerBlade Junior Member Join Date: January 18, 2015 Posts: 9	Thanks for all the reply. I think I will try a few and see which works best for me.

January 21, 2015, 04:14 PM	#9
kealil Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2011 Posts: 270	Hello, Personally I no longer use vibratory tumbler because I switched to stainless steel media in a rebel tumbler. I’ll never go back as long as I have the option but I digress. When I used Vibratory Tumbling, I utilized Corncob media and walnut with some nufinish from the automotive aisle in Walmart. It made the brass really shiny, cut down on the dust, and just worked. I personally have never used Jewelers Rouge before though.

January 21, 2015, 04:18 PM	#10
MarkGlazer Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2013 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 329	Zilla in the vibrating cleaner for no less than 2.5 hours. Everything comes out clean and shiny, including the flash holes. Good luck.

January 21, 2015, 08:23 PM	#13
Emerson Biggies Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2014 Posts: 163	no need to add a chemical factory to the mix. If you have mineral spirits, just put some in a spray bottle and give the media two or three spritzes while the vibrator is running, then add the brass. Voila- brass is cleaned just fine.

January 21, 2015, 09:18 PM	#15
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	unclenick- Zilla is also a very fine crushed Walnut. Very rare for it to get stuck in primer holes. I found the fine crush seems to clean faster also.

January 21, 2015, 10:21 PM	#16
MarkGlazer Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2013 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 329	Thanks guys for the quick response regarding Zilla. There is another aspect ... it's CHEAP. Compare what the LGS charges for "crushed walnut" to any pet store, it's a nice savings and a single bag will last quite awhile. I'm still on my original purchase and it's only been 2 years since I began loading.

January 21, 2015, 11:47 PM	#17
Tinbucket Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2015 Posts: 355	Cleaning Brass I use the old Lyman Viberator with wallnut shells and final polish corn cobs. I find some polish remains on the brass. That makes cases eject a little too fast. Cleaning the die lube off is a second operation. I have carbide dies even in .223 but still have to use some lube on .223 and all other rifle cartridges. I was spraying carb cleaner on the shells in a tray carefully so not to get near the neck and bullet. Not a good way. The walnut hulls and corn cob media have are both treated so I need to find some that isn't. I've been looking at the new ones that use a liquid media.

January 22, 2015, 12:14 PM	#18
9mmSkeeter Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2014 Location: South Dakota Posts: 205	Call me simple but I use Iosso's case cleaning kit - it's a 1 gallon pail, a mesh bag, and comes with one gallon of brass cleaner. That got used up quickly and replacements are expensive, so I bought some Frankfort Arsenal Brass Cleaner to replace it. You dilute it, it's cheaper, and lasts forever. It works better too. You put the brass in the mesh bag, put the bag into the solution in the bucket, seal the bucket, slosh it around for 30 seconds, and leave it sit for 10 min. You drain the bag into the bucket, then wash the remaining solution from the bag/brass running hot water through it in a sink. Wring the bag out, dump onto an old cookie pan, and set your oven to 200*F for 5 minutes. Or stick in front of a heater. Never saw the economy in buying a turbo cleaner or a tumbler. This gets my brass clean, sometimes shiny, but clean being the important factor here. __________________ I kind of like weaponry.

January 22, 2015, 01:33 PM	#19
schmellba99 Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2008 Posts: 803	I used to use the pet store crushed walnut, NuFinish and a capfull or two of mineral spirits. Worked well enough, though anybody that tries to tell me you can get clean and shiny brass in an hour is either starting with clean and shiny brass, or we have vastly different definitions of what clean and shiny is. Never was able to get anything acceptable in under about 7 or 8 hours. I use SSTL now. Have 2 separate Lyman tumblers with two bowls each that are collecting dust now. Should probably sell one of them to clear some space because it simply will never get used again.

January 22, 2015, 01:45 PM	#20
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Don't get too involved or overthink tumbling brass. It's 99% cosmetic. FWIW; I reloaded for 12 years before I got a tumbler. I just wiped each case to remove any grit or grease as I inspected it. Nope, no worn out or scratched dies, and yep I could spot defects in the cases. Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-tumbling (I find it a lot of work 'cause I'm the only one to ever see my reloads and nobody to impress), I just think a lot importance is misplaced on some reloading steps for new reloaders. Bright shiny, virgin looking brass ain't gonna make your ammo any safer or shoot any better. I'd say concentrate wholly on the reloading process, step by step, and just consider the "extra" steps "extra" and not necessary now... I hung out at a police range in the mid sixties and noticed a couple guys that shot a lot. I also saw them picking up all their empties and the ammo they were shooting was brown. They had excellent targets (I saw some with one hole about 2" in diameter after mebbe 50 shots from their 1911s). These guys were the first reloaders I encountered, and they didn't tumble their brass. Ideas have changed and today it seems that bright shiny, virgin looking brass has become a necessity even for new reloaders... P.S.; I do tumble/polish my 45 ACP brass and my 30-06 Garand brass 'cause it's easier to find the empties flung out of my guns in the dirt, rocks, and trash at the local "range".. When I do polish/tumble brass I don't add a "formula" of additives/solvents to my tumbling media, I just use corn cob blast media with an occasional teaspoonful of auto polish. http://www.drillspot.com/products/49...bs_blast_media Last edited by mikld; January 22, 2015 at 02:00 PM.

January 22, 2015, 02:42 PM	#21
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	I agree with mikld that too much unnecessary emphasis is placed on cleaning/tumbling brass. Dull brass seems to shoot just as well as clean brass. One thing that I don't recall as ever being mentioned is difference in tumbling time whether rifle or handgun cases are being tumbled. I would think that handgun brass probably does require more tumbling time than rifle to achieve the same degree of polishing. Rifle brass tumbled with lizard media and Nu-Finish auto polish only requires about an hour to again looking respectable.

January 22, 2015, 03:22 PM	#22
schmellba99 Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2008 Posts: 803	I don't think anybody argues that tumbling to a point where it is shiny and new looking is a necessity. I tumble because I like clean things - I like my brass clean, my dies clean and as a result it leaves my equipment clean. Clean equipment runs better than dirty equipment. Clean equipment is more consistent than dirty equipment. It's more of a pride thing for me I suppose than anything. And clean brass is a lot easier to inspect in a lot less time for defects than dirty brass is, so there is that aspect. If I'm going to put the little bit of time and effort required to clean my brass, might as well go ahead and actually get it clean and shiny.

January 22, 2015, 03:35 PM	#23
CenterFireBrass.com Member Join Date: March 11, 2011 Posts: 18	The cheapest way to go for cleaning media is to buy form Grainger. 14 to 20 grit seems to do good as it gets into the cases better because its smaller. Also the cost is around $1/lb or media, but you have to buy in bulk 40lb bags. I have used media additives and the likes and I find that it really is not worth it unless the media is really dirty, in which case it's just time for more media. Happy Shooting!!!

January 22, 2015, 04:05 PM	#24
kealil Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2011 Posts: 270	I agree that there is too much emphasis placed on “virgin” level clean brass. It is not necessary. But For me as an individual, I take pride in not only making reliable, accurate ammunition but also making it presentable. Beyond the pride in good work there is reason to tumble brass and to use a method that cleans the inside fairly well because it makes inspection of said brass easier. It is a lot easier to spot creases and potential weak points when there is no dirt or tarnish to distort the brass. Just my .02

January 22, 2015, 10:29 PM	#25
MarkGlazer Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2013 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 329	For me the question isn't about having shinny brass, rather it was about not having to clean out flash holes during the process. Call it a pet peeve if you will but I grew tired of having to take the time to inspect every flash hole and clean accordingly. Last year there was a running post from multiple people about accidently leaving their vibrating cleaners running for an extraordinary length of time. The end result was incredibly clean brass, including and especially the flash hole. So, I tested the theory and let my brass go from 1 hour to 2.5 hours. Wallah, no more flash hole junk to clean out. I do use Zilla exclusively, no other adders such as Nu Finish. Nothing wrong with that you understand, just no need to spend the money. PS - I lied. I also like the shinny brass.