3006 load

deadwolfarms · December 29, 2014, 04:13 PM

Has anyone used varget for 3006 with the amax bullet
Thanks guys

T. O'Heir · December 29, 2014, 04:34 PM

Which A-Max bullet? There are 5 .30 cal A-Maxes. Varget is one of the go to M1 Rifle powders though. Varmint hunting only with any A-Max.

deadwolfarms · December 29, 2014, 04:41 PM

168 grain. Why only varmet

T. O'Heir · December 29, 2014, 04:48 PM

Hi. A-Max bullets are match bullets. They don't expand or penetrate reliably on big beasties. Made for making nice clean holes in paper so targets are easy to score. A varmint, usually being wee things, needs a good bullet and it doesn't matter if the bullet doesn't expand.
You'll see all kinds of heated arguments from guys saying they use A-Maxes all the time on deer, but it ain't ethical.

jmr40 · December 29, 2014, 04:58 PM

Right, is a target bullet, not a hunting bullet.

I use H4350 with 150-180 gr bullets in my 30-06. Hard to go wrong with that or IMR4350. I get equal accuracy with both, about 10-20 fps more speed with the IMR version, but the H version is more stable in extreme temperature swings and that was the deciding factor between the 2.

Bart B. · December 29, 2014, 07:37 PM

A-Max bullets make no cleaner holes in paper targets, than FMJBT, HPBT nor any other pointed tip bullet. On paper targets, the bullet holes they make are typically viewed for whether or not they cut into a target's scoring ring by a flanged gauge whose diameter is equal to bullet diameter. They often have a magnifying lens over the gauging flange to easily see if the edge of the flange goes over the ring's edge. They're explained in the link below:

http://www.accurateshooter.com/compe...coring-gauges/

Clean; virtually perfectly round holes in paper targets are made with wadcutter, flat nose bullets in handguns. They're not used in rifles.

snolden · December 30, 2014, 12:06 AM

Go buy the hornady reloading manual. I load both 155 and 178 AMAX for my .30-06 to shoot 500-800 yards.

Varget is a good powder. My rifle liked it, but liked imr4831 better. For deer I load soft point speer's in 165 grain.

MadDawg · January 1, 2015, 07:11 PM

i go here...

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

skizzums · January 1, 2015, 08:02 PM

lapua makes cutting edge bullets in .308 that leave nice clean holes like a wadcutter. they are pricey though, but I have found them to be extremely accurate, but have not test out to significant distances.

not sure why only 100gr though

**Unclenick** · January 1, 2015, 11:54 PM

Deadwolfarms,

In general, one of the differences between target bullets and hunting bullets is target bullets have thinner jackets than hunting bullets have. That is because thin jacket cups are easier to make as nearly perfectly uniform in thickness all around as possible. That uniformity is essential to keeping the center of mass of the bullet centered on its spin axis, which, in turn, is critical to achieving the smallest possible groups on paper.

The problem with the thin jackets for hunting is not their lack of controlled expansion. That's true for the large number of non-expanding solid designs as well, and with good shot placement they are still quite lethal, in part because they penetrate well. The problem with the thin jacket is a tendency for them to come apart in game and the lead core often seems to do that right along with it, so the retained weight is poor, so the penetration falls off quickly.

Someone had a photo on line of the recovered pieces of a 168 grain MatchKing that had been used to shoot a deer and that were laid out in their approximate original positions to form the bullet shape. It certainly was in no condition either to continue to penetrate or to make an exit wound that would help bleeding out or letting you track the animal. I don't know whether that one hit bone or not. I don't know what range it was, and that matters as slower impact at longer range is less likely to disintegrate the bullet. It may have been close. I don't know what percentage of the time this disintegration occurs, overall, but apparently it is often enough that Sierra and Hornady don't recommend their match bullets for hunting, instead encouraging you to use their heavier jacketed bullets. The 175 grain SMK is used in sniper ammo, so it's not that it can't kill. It just may not be as quick as you'd like for game animals with a reflex that often has them run while dying.

On a more encouraging note, while thick jackets are harder to make uniform than thin ones, manufacturing technology has kept advancing over time, and these days some pretty thick jacketed bullets seem to approach the precision of match bullets pretty closely. I don't think they'd hold up in a benchrest match, but a good many production hunting rifles might will be unable to show the difference between them. If you want something with a high BC that is capable of good long range hunting performance, you might try Nosler's AccuBond Long Range bullet. They are expensive, but you can use a same-weight Hornady A-max to get similar performance for practice, then load the AccuBond LR just to tweak the powder charge for it and to check zeros and hunt.

Dufus · January 2, 2015, 10:34 AM

From the Berger Bullets FAQ:

"What is the difference between your bullet types? (Target/Tactical/Varmint/Hunting)

Our Target and Tactical bullets are designed with thicker jackets that withstand more stress before bullet degradation occurs. A target or tactical shooter generally fires multiple rounds in a row, causing the barrel to heat up and more stress on bullet. To keep performance high, we give these bullets thicker jackets.

Our Varmint and Hunting bullets have slightly thinner jackets. This means that the bullet will expand more effectively, creating a large wound cavity that devastates the animal using hydrostatic shock. Hunters generally shoot 1-3 bullets at a time, so bullet degradation is not as much of a concern as expansion."

mikld · January 2, 2015, 01:38 PM

FWIW; A few years ago I was working with A-Max bullets in my 30-30. I contacted Hornady and was given a starting load and was told the A-Max bullets weren't good for hunting because the light jacket construction would allow too rapid expansion, with too little penetration...

**Unclenick** · January 2, 2015, 01:48 PM

Dufus,

Berger has to do things a bit differently. The problem they face with the VLD target bullets is they are longer than a lot of other manufacturers products that have the same weight. As a result they need to be spun faster to be stabilized. The faster spin encourages core stripping and any eccentricity in the spin becomes exaggerated so they can fly apart with the required rate of spin at higher velocities. This is why they had to make them thicker than most conventional target bullets.

Sierra, on the other hand, says of their MatchKing target bullets:

Quote:

These bullets have very thin jackets drawn to an exacting concentricity standard of 0.0003 in maximum variation, and their weight is held to within ± 0.3 grain. All MatchKing have a hollow point design with a very small meplat for high ballistic coefficient…
…Although some of these bullets have been used for hunting, Sierra recommends them only for target shooting.

Note the mention of the small meplat hollow point. One other difference between most conventional target and hunting bullets is that target bullet hollow points are too small to expand. It was on this basis that the Adjutant General's office concluded the 175 Grain SMK could be approved for combat use in M118LR and Mk.316 mod.0 sniper ammunition. The "non-expanding hollow point" did not, in his opinion, violate the Hague Accords. The rapid expansion referred to by Hornady can happen because the hollow point meplat is wider for their plastic tips. I don't know how the new Sierra plastic tips will stack up in this regard.

But as I said, the technology keeps changing. Nothing true today is necessarily going to hold up tomorrow, so keep your eyes open.

Dufus · January 2, 2015, 02:53 PM

The very reason that I prefer the solids made by Cutting Edge Bullets for that purpose.

They have some impressive G1 BC bullets for a range of calibers.

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/cgi-b...&category=MTAC

RC20 · January 3, 2015, 12:18 AM

As for the 30-06 load, it really depends more on what you can get these days than what's ideal. I run 5 powders as I can randomly get one of them and keep the overall stock up.

I use 4350, R17, H4831 Varget and have some W748 as well as played with TAC.

How good it is depends on which gun I shoot it it.

The 1917s are pretty tolerant though I am inclined to 4350 though R17 did well.

the 1903s seem to prefer the 4831.

Any listed powder in Hornady and Sierra will work decently and those two pubs list a very wide range.

ATPBULLETS · January 3, 2015, 10:25 AM

I have used the 155 A-max with Varget.
With very good results for my set up..... cheap rifle and not so cheap scope and sporter barrel shot using gun mounted bipod(cheap)...1 inch or less at 100yds if I let the barrel cool. The thing about this combo that really surprised me was the speed....5 shot string clocked an average of 3140 fps.... which makes for some really favorable ballistics down range with the Amax BC.

Good Combo for me.... after the testing.. I added the Nosler Ballistic Tip 150grain to the equation for testing....did excellent as well. Which is now my hunting round...

December 29, 2014, 04:13 PM	#1
deadwolfarms Member Join Date: November 27, 2011 Posts: 26	3006 load Has anyone used varget for 3006 with the amax bullet Thanks guys

January 1, 2015, 11:54 PM	#10
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,742	Deadwolfarms, In general, one of the differences between target bullets and hunting bullets is target bullets have thinner jackets than hunting bullets have. That is because thin jacket cups are easier to make as nearly perfectly uniform in thickness all around as possible. That uniformity is essential to keeping the center of mass of the bullet centered on its spin axis, which, in turn, is critical to achieving the smallest possible groups on paper. The problem with the thin jackets for hunting is not their lack of controlled expansion. That's true for the large number of non-expanding solid designs as well, and with good shot placement they are still quite lethal, in part because they penetrate well. The problem with the thin jacket is a tendency for them to come apart in game and the lead core often seems to do that right along with it, so the retained weight is poor, so the penetration falls off quickly. Someone had a photo on line of the recovered pieces of a 168 grain MatchKing that had been used to shoot a deer and that were laid out in their approximate original positions to form the bullet shape. It certainly was in no condition either to continue to penetrate or to make an exit wound that would help bleeding out or letting you track the animal. I don't know whether that one hit bone or not. I don't know what range it was, and that matters as slower impact at longer range is less likely to disintegrate the bullet. It may have been close. I don't know what percentage of the time this disintegration occurs, overall, but apparently it is often enough that Sierra and Hornady don't recommend their match bullets for hunting, instead encouraging you to use their heavier jacketed bullets. The 175 grain SMK is used in sniper ammo, so it's not that it can't kill. It just may not be as quick as you'd like for game animals with a reflex that often has them run while dying. On a more encouraging note, while thick jackets are harder to make uniform than thin ones, manufacturing technology has kept advancing over time, and these days some pretty thick jacketed bullets seem to approach the precision of match bullets pretty closely. I don't think they'd hold up in a benchrest match, but a good many production hunting rifles might will be unable to show the difference between them. If you want something with a high BC that is capable of good long range hunting performance, you might try Nosler's AccuBond Long Range bullet. They are expensive, but you can use a same-weight Hornady A-max to get similar performance for practice, then load the AccuBond LR just to tweak the powder charge for it and to check zeros and hunt. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 3, 2015, 10:25 AM	#16
ATPBULLETS Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2012 Location: Land between the Lakes Posts: 267	I have used the 155 A-max with Varget. With very good results for my set up..... cheap rifle and not so cheap scope and sporter barrel shot using gun mounted bipod(cheap)...1 inch or less at 100yds if I let the barrel cool. The thing about this combo that really surprised me was the speed....5 shot string clocked an average of 3140 fps.... which makes for some really favorable ballistics down range with the Amax BC. Good Combo for me.... after the testing.. I added the Nosler Ballistic Tip 150grain to the equation for testing....did excellent as well. Which is now my hunting round... __________________ http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/y...e/photo-25.jpg

December 29, 2014, 04:34 PM	#2
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Which A-Max bullet? There are 5 .30 cal A-Maxes. Varget is one of the go to M1 Rifle powders though. Varmint hunting only with any A-Max.

December 29, 2014, 04:41 PM	#3
deadwolfarms Member Join Date: November 27, 2011 Posts: 26	168 grain. Why only varmet

December 29, 2014, 04:48 PM	#4
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Hi. A-Max bullets are match bullets. They don't expand or penetrate reliably on big beasties. Made for making nice clean holes in paper so targets are easy to score. A varmint, usually being wee things, needs a good bullet and it doesn't matter if the bullet doesn't expand. You'll see all kinds of heated arguments from guys saying they use A-Maxes all the time on deer, but it ain't ethical.

December 29, 2014, 04:58 PM	#5
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,974	Right, is a target bullet, not a hunting bullet. I use H4350 with 150-180 gr bullets in my 30-06. Hard to go wrong with that or IMR4350. I get equal accuracy with both, about 10-20 fps more speed with the IMR version, but the H version is more stable in extreme temperature swings and that was the deciding factor between the 2.

December 29, 2014, 07:37 PM	#6
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	A-Max bullets make no cleaner holes in paper targets, than FMJBT, HPBT nor any other pointed tip bullet. On paper targets, the bullet holes they make are typically viewed for whether or not they cut into a target's scoring ring by a flanged gauge whose diameter is equal to bullet diameter. They often have a magnifying lens over the gauging flange to easily see if the edge of the flange goes over the ring's edge. They're explained in the link below: http://www.accurateshooter.com/compe...coring-gauges/ Clean; virtually perfectly round holes in paper targets are made with wadcutter, flat nose bullets in handguns. They're not used in rifles.

December 30, 2014, 12:06 AM	#7
snolden Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2006 Location: N. E. AZ Posts: 387	Go buy the hornady reloading manual. I load both 155 and 178 AMAX for my .30-06 to shoot 500-800 yards. Varget is a good powder. My rifle liked it, but liked imr4831 better. For deer I load soft point speer's in 165 grain.

January 1, 2015, 07:11 PM	#8
MadDawg Member Join Date: December 27, 2014 Posts: 51	i go here... http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

January 1, 2015, 08:02 PM	#9
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	lapua makes cutting edge bullets in .308 that leave nice clean holes like a wadcutter. they are pricey though, but I have found them to be extremely accurate, but have not test out to significant distances. not sure why only 100gr though

January 2, 2015, 10:34 AM	#11
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,967	From the Berger Bullets FAQ: "What is the difference between your bullet types? (Target/Tactical/Varmint/Hunting) Our Target and Tactical bullets are designed with thicker jackets that withstand more stress before bullet degradation occurs. A target or tactical shooter generally fires multiple rounds in a row, causing the barrel to heat up and more stress on bullet. To keep performance high, we give these bullets thicker jackets. Our Varmint and Hunting bullets have slightly thinner jackets. This means that the bullet will expand more effectively, creating a large wound cavity that devastates the animal using hydrostatic shock. Hunters generally shoot 1-3 bullets at a time, so bullet degradation is not as much of a concern as expansion."

January 2, 2015, 01:38 PM	#12
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	FWIW; A few years ago I was working with A-Max bullets in my 30-30. I contacted Hornady and was given a starting load and was told the A-Max bullets weren't good for hunting because the light jacket construction would allow too rapid expansion, with too little penetration...

January 2, 2015, 02:53 PM	#14
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,967	The very reason that I prefer the solids made by Cutting Edge Bullets for that purpose. They have some impressive G1 BC bullets for a range of calibers. https://cuttingedgebullets.com/cgi-b...&category=MTAC

January 3, 2015, 12:18 AM	#15
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,334	As for the 30-06 load, it really depends more on what you can get these days than what's ideal. I run 5 powders as I can randomly get one of them and keep the overall stock up. I use 4350, R17, H4831 Varget and have some W748 as well as played with TAC. How good it is depends on which gun I shoot it it. The 1917s are pretty tolerant though I am inclined to 4350 though R17 did well. the 1903s seem to prefer the 4831. Any listed powder in Hornady and Sierra will work decently and those two pubs list a very wide range.