25-20 Black Powder

Smoke & Recoil · December 25, 2014, 08:04 PM

Okay people, My question is...
Was my model 92 25-20 Win originally a black powder load ?
The serial number is a very low 5 digit, 41XXX manufactured
the year of 1894.

Thank you.

jdscholer · December 25, 2014, 08:17 PM

I believe the parent cartridge 32-20, literally meant 32 cal. with 20 gr. of black powder.

25-20 is one of those transitional cartridges that was originally loaded with black powder, and later smokless with pressures kept low in consideration of original firearms.

I would imagine that even today factory ammo would probably be fairly low pressure, but I'm not sure.

Clark · December 26, 2014, 12:17 AM

Handloader magazine April 2008
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazin...252partial.pdf
Handloader magazine Jan 2001
Handloading the .32-20 WCF
The all-time small game standard.
by Brian Pearce
Handloader magazine May 1989
Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.32-20_Winchester
* Brian Pierce 16kcup for pre 1900 Colt SAA revolvers, 30kcup for post 1900 Colt revolvers, 40kcup for rifles, 2002

I have a number of Win 92 rifles in 25-20, and they are only at the top of the pressure heap IF the firing pin to firing pin hole fit is still tight.

50 yard target

This rifle was made in 1900, and probably rebarreled with a Winchester gunsmithing barrel ~1920.

This one I can't get past 28,000 psi even with CCI 450 small rifle magnum primers, without it blowing bubbles in the primer.
I am doing that with Sierra 75 gr hollow point 1600 [longest bullet it will stabilize], 1.895" OAL [so long I have to feed single shot] with 12.3 gr LIL'GUN and a pistol scope I clamped on the barrel

Jim Watson · December 26, 2014, 10:06 AM

The .25-20 WCF was Winchester's approach to getting the ballistics of the popular .25-20 Stevens Single Shot in repeaters. The .25-20 SS was too long for the action of the 1892 Winchester or 1894 Marlin so the .32-20 got necked down to fit.

It was originally a black powder round but was one of the early transitions to smokeless.

Smoke & Recoil · December 26, 2014, 12:11 PM

I thank all the replies for my question. I'd lock this thread, but I
have no idea on how to do it.

**Mike Irwin** · December 28, 2014, 04:43 PM

I'm not 100% sure, but with the 25-20 being introduced in 1895, it may well have been introduced as a smokeless powder cartridge using the older blackpowder nomenclature.

I've done limited loading for the round for my Savage 23-B.

Strafer Gott · December 28, 2014, 09:02 PM

It would be pretty easy to believe reloading it with black powder and buckshot for a garden load. I have the Savage bolt action. It would be great to find a Marlin chambered in .25-20, and a Winchester would be unbelievable.

Drm50 · December 30, 2014, 11:29 PM

25/20 Winchester

I've had 25/20s ever since I was a kid. My favorite one is this Winchester 53.
It's the rifle version of the 1892. Got this one from retired sheriff, 35 yrs. ago.
I like to use it on squirrels. I have an old Ideal 86 gr. Hp mould for it. Sized to
.258--8 1/2 gr. 2400-- Win. Small rifle primer. Approx. 1600fps. Spiffy load for
small game. You can shoot 60gr. Jackets at 2100fps. Making my own bullets
I can shot as cheap as 22.

bbqncigars · December 31, 2014, 03:14 AM

Since I got 'Sweetie' (1894 Marlin) a few years ago, I was shooting so much that a Hornady AP press had to be purchased just to keep up with it. The favorite load out to 100yds is a coated 85gr boolit over 5.5gr of 2400. I think more time is spent coating than casting, but I could be wrong. A lot of the people whom I've let shoot her want to buy her from me. Not happening. I've got a very accurate little lever gun, and there must be fifty ways to love your lever.

jdscholer · December 31, 2014, 10:10 AM

Fast forward a few years, and the 25-20 had a little brother called the 218 Bee. They finally put the right sized bullet in that cute little case. It also came out originally in a lever gun, and later Winchester did these Model 43 bolt actions. I wouldn't trade this one for --- nuthin. jd

**Mike Irwin** · December 31, 2014, 12:11 PM

Prices on rifles chambered for this class of round, including the Winchester 1892, 43, 53, Remington 23, Marlins...

Have just gone through the freaking roof the last couple of years.

It's getting hard to find any Remington 23 under $1,000 on the auction sites.

Although I did just come across a Marlin 27-S for under $400... and it doesn't look to be that bad condition wise...

But it's in .25-20, and I'm really looking for a .32-20, as I already have a .25-20 bolt.

Smoke & Recoil · December 31, 2014, 01:23 PM

Well, since pictures are being posted too, here's mine. Model 1892, manufactured the year of 1894 hence the serial number (41XXX).
22" barrel, full magazine, German silver front sight blade and crescent
butt stock. caliber 25-20.

**Mike Irwin** · December 31, 2014, 01:49 PM

Nice Ideal tool!

December 25, 2014, 08:04 PM	#1
Smoke & Recoil Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: East shore of Lake Michigan. Posts: 731	25-20 Black Powder Okay people, My question is... Was my model 92 25-20 Win originally a black powder load ? The serial number is a very low 5 digit, 41XXX manufactured the year of 1894. Thank you.

December 25, 2014, 08:17 PM	#2
jdscholer Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Jefferson State Posts: 1,197	I believe the parent cartridge 32-20, literally meant 32 cal. with 20 gr. of black powder. 25-20 is one of those transitional cartridges that was originally loaded with black powder, and later smokless with pressures kept low in consideration of original firearms. I would imagine that even today factory ammo would probably be fairly low pressure, but I'm not sure. __________________ "We're all dummies, just in different ways." Old Okie Philosopher

December 26, 2014, 12:17 AM	#3
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	The 25-20 is a necked down 32-20 Handloader magazine April 2008 http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazin...252partial.pdf Handloader magazine Jan 2001 Handloading the .32-20 WCF The all-time small game standard. by Brian Pearce Handloader magazine May 1989 Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.32-20_Winchester * Brian Pierce 16kcup for pre 1900 Colt SAA revolvers, 30kcup for post 1900 Colt revolvers, 40kcup for rifles, 2002 I have a number of Win 92 rifles in 25-20, and they are only at the top of the pressure heap IF the firing pin to firing pin hole fit is still tight. 50 yard target This rifle was made in 1900, and probably rebarreled with a Winchester gunsmithing barrel ~1920. This one I can't get past 28,000 psi even with CCI 450 small rifle magnum primers, without it blowing bubbles in the primer. I am doing that with Sierra 75 gr hollow point 1600 [longest bullet it will stabilize], 1.895" OAL [so long I have to feed single shot] with 12.3 gr LIL'GUN and a pistol scope I clamped on the barrel

December 26, 2014, 12:11 PM	#5
Smoke & Recoil Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: East shore of Lake Michigan. Posts: 731	Thank you all. I thank all the replies for my question. I'd lock this thread, but I have no idea on how to do it.

December 28, 2014, 04:43 PM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	I'm not 100% sure, but with the 25-20 being introduced in 1895, it may well have been introduced as a smokeless powder cartridge using the older blackpowder nomenclature. I've done limited loading for the round for my Savage 23-B. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 26, 2014, 10:06 AM	#4
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 19,185	The .25-20 WCF was Winchester's approach to getting the ballistics of the popular .25-20 Stevens Single Shot in repeaters. The .25-20 SS was too long for the action of the 1892 Winchester or 1894 Marlin so the .32-20 got necked down to fit. It was originally a black powder round but was one of the early transitions to smokeless.

December 28, 2014, 09:02 PM	#7
Strafer Gott Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,315	It would be pretty easy to believe reloading it with black powder and buckshot for a garden load. I have the Savage bolt action. It would be great to find a Marlin chambered in .25-20, and a Winchester would be unbelievable.

December 30, 2014, 11:29 PM	#8
Drm50 Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2014 Posts: 1,498	25/20 Winchester I've had 25/20s ever since I was a kid. My favorite one is this Winchester 53. It's the rifle version of the 1892. Got this one from retired sheriff, 35 yrs. ago. I like to use it on squirrels. I have an old Ideal 86 gr. Hp mould for it. Sized to .258--8 1/2 gr. 2400-- Win. Small rifle primer. Approx. 1600fps. Spiffy load for small game. You can shoot 60gr. Jackets at 2100fps. Making my own bullets I can shot as cheap as 22.

December 31, 2014, 03:14 AM	#9
bbqncigars Senior Member Join Date: February 1, 2009 Location: Iowa Posts: 526	Since I got 'Sweetie' (1894 Marlin) a few years ago, I was shooting so much that a Hornady AP press had to be purchased just to keep up with it. The favorite load out to 100yds is a coated 85gr boolit over 5.5gr of 2400. I think more time is spent coating than casting, but I could be wrong. A lot of the people whom I've let shoot her want to buy her from me. Not happening. I've got a very accurate little lever gun, and there must be fifty ways to love your lever. __________________ "Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." A. Brilliant

December 31, 2014, 10:10 AM	#10
jdscholer Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Jefferson State Posts: 1,197	Fast forward a few years, and the 25-20 had a little brother called the 218 Bee. They finally put the right sized bullet in that cute little case. It also came out originally in a lever gun, and later Winchester did these Model 43 bolt actions. I wouldn't trade this one for --- nuthin. jd __________________ "We're all dummies, just in different ways." Old Okie Philosopher

December 31, 2014, 12:11 PM	#11
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	Prices on rifles chambered for this class of round, including the Winchester 1892, 43, 53, Remington 23, Marlins... Have just gone through the freaking roof the last couple of years. It's getting hard to find any Remington 23 under $1,000 on the auction sites. Although I did just come across a Marlin 27-S for under $400... and it doesn't look to be that bad condition wise... But it's in .25-20, and I'm really looking for a .32-20, as I already have a .25-20 bolt. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 31, 2014, 01:49 PM	#13
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	Nice Ideal tool! __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.