30-30: Harder Cast Lead or Gas Checked Lead

ckpj99 · April 15, 2014, 02:26 AM

So I've begun reloading for .30-30 and frankly bullet availability and cost stinks. Lever Evolution bullets seem to occasionally be available. I finally found some Speer Hot-Cor 170 grain flat points. 100 of those costs me about $25, which really cuts into the saving of reloading.

I've found a bit more variety in lead bullets. I bought 500 for about $50 (Magnus brand), which actually makes reloading worth it in terms of cost. The issue with shooting most lead bullets is that you have to run them so slow. I have my 165 grain bullets running at about 1500 fps to prevent leading. Most loads for jacketed bullets I've seen run in the 2000-2200 fps range, and factory Lever Evolution 160 grain rounds run at 2400 fps. So by shooting lead, you really loose a lot of power. My 165 grain load has about the same energy as a .357 magnum at the muzzle.

What I'd really like is either a harder cast lead bullet that I can run up to 2000 fps, or an affordable gas checked bullet. Again, this is all simply to avoid paying the high cost of jacketed bullets.

However, I really haven't been able to find either of these options. The few gas checked bullets I've found have cost just as much as jacketed, $25/100 or so. And I haven't really been able to find harder lead bullets for .30-30.

So I guess my questions are:
1) How hard (brinell hardness) does a bullet need to be to run at 2000 fps?
2) What are some options for finding hard cast bullets that are that hard?
3) Is there a cheap gas checked 30-30 bullet out there?

I'm open to any and all opinions. Thanks!

Mike / Tx · April 15, 2014, 05:44 AM

Well first things first, if you are planning on using these for hunting, your actually barking up the wrong tree wanting something harder. You are stuck in the jacketed bullet speed is everything mode of thinking. This isn't wrong, but with cast it simply works differently.

With jacketed bullets you NEED speed to get expansion so that the smaller tip of the bullet will initiate the jacket to rupture and roll back. With cast there is no jacket, and the lead will roll back on its own.

As for the speeds required, well that depends on the alloy and you don't have to use super hard alloy for a good hunting load nor do you need a lot of speed. I was just researching this myself and was reading on it in this link,What-do-you-consider-the-minium-velocity-for-a-30

You will find that with cast loads you get better accuracy in the 1600'ish or just a bit faster range. With a softer alloy you CAN get by without a GC'ed bullet IF the fit and lube are right for your barrel. Even with a GC'ed version however you don't necessarily need to push the upper limits of velocity, you simply need to work up an accurate load and then stick within the limits of that load for your hunting.

Think back a hundred and fifty years ago. Most if not all bullets were almost if not pure lead, and they weren't driven to warp speed velocity, yet they reliably worked on just about everything they were used against.

Real Gun · April 15, 2014, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Think back a hundred and fifty years ago. Most if not all bullets were almost if not pure lead, and they weren't driven to warp speed velocity, yet they reliably worked on just about everything they were used against.

Good thought, but it then occurred to me that we live in the age of optics and shooting these guns out to their potential range.

reloader28 · April 15, 2014, 09:32 AM

I agree with Mike.
The need for speed is not there. I'm using a load going about 1880fps with 165gr and that is my fast hunting load.
50/50/2% gas checked bullets around 9-10 BHN, and they perform as good if not better than ANY kind of copper patched thing you can buy in the store going 2200fps.

I think 30-30's are almost the most perfect gun for cast bullets. My 30-30's aint seen a jacketed bullet in quite awhile and will never see another one.

Look for something around 9-10 BHN, gas checked and sized around .310.
Try between 1600-1700fps. You wont be disappointed unless you want more recoil.

BumbleBug · April 15, 2014, 10:10 AM

I can not speak from experience but I can pass along what I've seen & heard from an acquaintance at my gun club.

He was getting ready for deer season & he was zeroing in his 30-30 with a ghost ring sight. He was shooting paper-patched bullet that he has cast & rolled himself. The bullets were cast out of dead-soft lead & patched in oil soaked linen paper. He said that he could get the velocity close to 2,000 fps & the bullets expanded in deer size game as big as a quarter! I did a little research & it seem that his technique has a following in the shooting community. BTW, he was shooting some fantastic groups at 100 yds with the peep sight & his home-rolled bullets!

FWIW...

...bug

243winxb · April 15, 2014, 10:15 AM

You want gas checked lead. But as you have found out, they cost the same as jacketed, if you buy them. Cast your own and use 4895 powder. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/827...eck-box-of-100

ckpj99 · April 15, 2014, 02:53 PM

Thanks for your help folks. I think I'll stick with the Magnus for now. They load well in my equipment, and after doing some additionally research, they are pretty hard cast. Something around 14-17 brinell depending on who you ask. This means I should be able to push them at 1600 fps without much of an issue, and based on what you guys have said, 1600 fps has pretty good power behind it. I do have some jacketed on the way for when I occasionally want to shoot faster.

Slamfire · April 15, 2014, 04:22 PM

A couple of years ago I decided to try cast bullets in my Marlin 336. I never had any luck with plain base bullets in previous testing in the 303 Brit, 30-06, so I used gas checks which add to the cost.

My Marlin 336 is a microgroove, I did not slug the barrel. All I did was size the bullets with a 310 sizer, measure them with a decent micrometer, and they measured 0.3095”. I used Red Rooster bullet lube. The rifle is scoped with a Luepold 1X4.

I shot 170 grain Sierra Round nose over the chronograph to check on velocity. This is not the only group I shot with this load, all groups showed a pattern of vertical stringing. I have tested a lot of powders in this rifle and to date, the best 100 yard group with 170 Hornady FPFB is a five shot group 2.0" in diameter at 100 yards. A grain above or below and the groups are huge, six inches or more is not uncommon. Small changes in velocity result in big changes in point of impact. I found that the chamber headspace is huge , if measured from the shoulder. New cases fall correctly into my Wilson case gage but fired cases are 0.017" above "No Go". To prevent case stretch, which with this much headspace, would most certainly result in case head separations, I am lubing my new cases. This keeps the case sidewalls from adhering to the chamber, and that slides the case to the bolt face. I have adjusted my sizing die so that the shoulder is pushed back about 0.003" after the first firing. The throat is way up the barrel. I tried seating a 170 Hornady long, I was able to feed the round into the magazine and the chamber, but I was unable to extract the round. A loaded round has to be less than the distance from the front of the loading port to the ejector, which is just about 2.550". To extract this round I had to remove the loading lever and pull the bolt out. Unfortunately the throat is so far up the barrel that even with a overly long round, I never touched the rifling.

I commented about my problems, frustrations with the accuracy of the thing over lunch with some long range friends; they had been testing equipment that day, their groups at 100 yards were all nickel sized or less, and the comment from them was "these rifles are for those whose targets are at 50 yards".

I have been using AA5744 with cast bullets and it is an excellent powder. I tried other powders and the low extreme spreads with AA5744 convinced me that this powder was the best for this application The Lyman manual gives advice to use the lower powder charge in Marlin Microgroove barrels. That charge is 18.0 grains of AA5744. I went below that to see what happens. The first shot was incredibly low at 100 yards. I had to crank up 15 MOA on the scope to place the other nine shots in a 3.4 inch group. Velocity was only 1400 fps. The recommended load was just at what the Lyman manual predicted, 1600 fps. I had a wild first shot, way off to the left. I adjusted and the next wild shot was way to the right. I put the windage back at zero and shot the eight shot group below. I think this is the best group of the day, but not by much.

Just one grain more, 19.0 grains of AA5744, and 88 fps more, and I got a blown group. Every increase in powder just created larger blown groups. The chronograph data for 20.0 grs is included for reference. The other loads I created, I am going to disassemble them and re use the bullets.

I did not see any keyholing on the target, just shot gun sized groups.

The BHN of my bullets were as noted above, not too hard, not too soft.

I think I am going to have to be happy with 1600 fps in this rifle. If you notice, AA5744 gives decent Standard Deviations and Extreme Spreads. I think this is a good powder to use in my rifle.

Code:

						
Marlin M336 microgroove barrel, 
						
170 gr Sierra RN 29.4 grs H322 R-P cases WLR		
	 					
						
28 Sept 2008 T =  70 °F				
						
Ave Vel =	2132					
Std Dev =	15					
ES =	50					
High =	2154					
Low =	2104					
N =	10	
\

				 
						
						
173 gr 311041 GC sized .310 Lyman #2 alloy		
16.0 grs AA5744 CCI200 OAL 2.550 R-R cases trimmed 2.020"	
						
28 Sept 2008 T =  70 °F				
						
Ave Vel =	1438					
Std Dev =	17					
ES =	35					
High =	1444					
Low =	1409					
N =	10					
						
Nine shot group 2.7" X 3.4" Elevation plus 15 MOA from 170 Sierra


						
						
173 gr 311041 GC sized .310 Lyman #2 alloy		
18.0 grs AA5744 CCI200 OAL 2.550 R-P cases trimmed 2.020"	
						
28 Sept 2008 T =  70 °F				
						
Ave Vel =	1603					
Std Dev =	9					
ES =	33					
High =	1620					
Low =	1587					
N =	10					
						
two wild shots, then eight shot group in middle. 3" X 2.3" best group


							

						
173 gr 311041 GC sized .310 Lyman #2 alloy		
19.0 grs AA5744 CCI200 OAL 2.550 R-P cases trimmed 2.020"	
28 Sept 2008 T =  70 °F				
						
Ave Vel =	1688					
Std Dev =	17					
ES =	66					
High =	1732					
Low =	1666					
N =	17					
						
Blown group, inconsistent pattern			


						
173 gr 311041 GC sized .310 Lyman #2 alloy		
20.0 grs AA5744 CCI200 OAL 2.550 R-P cases trimmed 2.020"	
						
28 Sept 2008 T =  70 °F				
						
Ave Vel =	1719				 	 
Std Dev =	16				 	 
ES =	46				 	
High =	1742				 	
Low =	1696				 	
N =	10				 	
						
Blown huge group

Don’t expect target grade accuracy with a lever action. I conducted a bunch of testing and the best ten shot group was 2.0” and that was exceptional for my rifle. The second best load produced 2.5” group, and I consider groups in the 3 inch range entirely acceptable for a lever action, sometimes factory ammunition gave inch groups. Anyone who claims MOA in a lever action will need to produce a 20 shot group before I take their claim seriously.

Paul B. · April 15, 2014, 06:08 PM

"Everyone talks about long-range this and long-range that, as if we all live in NV / UT / AZ / NM / WY, etc."

Well, I lived in northern NV for almost 10 years until a job transfer moved me to southern AZ. Someone mentioned that the 30-30 was one of the best cartridges for cast bullets going and they won't get an argument from me. One that might be even better is the .32 Win. Spl. with it's 1 in 16" twist. I'll let you know after I find the mold I want and the proper sizing die. The .32 is a very recent acquisition that I haven't shot yet.

However, I can talk about cast bullets in the 30-30 as I've been loading for that round for over 50 years. My bullet of choice is the Lyman #311291, a nominally 175 gr. round nose bullet design from, IIRC 1905. I won't give the charge but the powder id W748 and I push a BHN 12 bullet to 2000 FPS. It's been sudden death on 15 deer. I've taken two more deer with the RCBS #30-180-FN at 1950 FPS.
Two things that arfe important with cast, One the bullet has to be properly sized. With that Lyman bullet, I size to .310". Also the nose of the bullet must be a snug fit in the bore. Easy test is stick one in the muzzle. If it's loosed and wobbly, it won't be accurate worth spit. If it's snug, or even large enough to be slightly engraved by the rifling, then you're good to go. I seat my bullets so the nose is impinging slightly onto the lands. I give the bullets a tight enough crimp that they do not get pushed back into the shell, nor do they pull out of the case when extracted.
Another popular bullet for the 30-30 is the Lyman #31141 now labeled #311041 to make their computor happy and it looks like a good on. I have two molds for that bullet plus a clone by NEI and I've never been able to get it to give me any accuracy on any of my 30-30 rifles. Lots of people like it and say they get good results but so far, nothing I've tried works for me. Just the luck of the draw I guess.
Paul B,

Real Gun · April 15, 2014, 07:14 PM

Quote:

"these rifles are for those whose targets are at 50 yards".

But did they ever shoot one, or is this what they read on the internet?

skizzums · April 16, 2014, 01:40 AM

plated?

http://www.xtremebullets.com/308-150...50fp-b0500.htm
the 762x38 runs great close to 2000fps, these would surely make a good 30-30 bullet, not sure if appropriate for hunting though if thats your objective

but if your looking to save cash and stay in the 1800fps range, these would be perfect for target

read the reviews at the bottom and you see many running in ar10s etc, only to assume pretty high velocities

reloader28 · April 16, 2014, 09:00 AM

Slamfire, if your not shooting a scoped gun any better than a 3" group at 100yds than either your gun is junk or your load definately needs work.
My open sight, lever action 44 and 30-30's shoot 3", and thats because of me.
Scoped 30-30 shoots 1", all with cast boolits.

Paul, I've had the same luck with 31141 in my guns. My cousin and brother like that one in theirs. I prefer the RCBS 150 SP. Drops at 160gr and shoots very good for me.
Now I'm playing with the NOE clone of the Ranch Dog 165. Drops at 170 gr and is a sledgehammer of a boolit. Huge meplat.

Slamfire · April 16, 2014, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Scoped 30-30 shoots 1", all with cast boolits.

I have temporarly given up cast bullets because of the amount of time and tinkering it takes to get a good group. But, I would be curious to see some of those MOA cast bullet targets. Have any ten or 20 round one MOA groups to share?

mehavey · April 16, 2014, 10:52 AM

I'm not about to shoot 10-20 same-load bullets at one target when 6-7 will do:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post2466518

<Big Grin>

Slamfire · April 16, 2014, 11:06 AM

That's a good group, very excellent, but yours is in a M70 in 30-06.

But, that is still only a seven shot group. If you only fired seven rounds per target in small bore prone, you would be down 120 points per match, assuming all the rest were in the ten ring. So you would lose 360 points from the start. A typical small bore match is either 120 rounds, or 160 shot for record, and just this weekend, the match winner was only down five points. I have attended regionals where after 320 record shots, there were multiple shooters who had shot perfect 3200’s.

Everyone shoots perfect five shot groups once in a while:

50 yards prone with a sling:

Sometimes I even do it at 100 yards:

mehavey · April 16, 2014, 12:16 PM

Quote:

That's a good group, very excellent, but yours is in a M70 in 30-06.
But, that is still only a seven shot group.

Gaaaawd you're picky !

(bet you're also an advocate of the Steve Martin drunk driving test)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRbZtCTzMg8

I'll admit up front that after 20 years shooting competive military pistol, I'm all bullseye-targeted out.
Today it's cast BPCR at 200yd offhand silhouette and or varying-distance BP roundball at steel gophers,
buffalos & bears. That's fun even on a bad day (whereas a bad bullseye target can ruin your
whole day.)

But I've been amazed at how well I could get small-caliber cast (i.e., 30cal) to shoot in modern
rifles. And with similar 10-12 twist rates between the various 30cal rifles, I see no reason that the
30-30 wouldn't shoot as well as the 308 or 30-06 at similar velocities in the 1,800fps range.

Slamfire · April 16, 2014, 12:34 PM

Quote:

But I've been amazed at how well I could get small-caliber cast (i.e., 30cal) to shoot in modern rifles. And with similar 10-12 twist rates between the various 30cal rifles, I see no reason that the 30-30 wouldn't shoot as well as the 308 or 30-06 at similar velocities in the 1,800fps range.

I don't disagree about potential accuracy, especially in a good solid bolt rifle. I have a book by Ness, somewhere in the pile, and a Win 54 in 30-30 would shoot with the best. I am reading of MOA with cast bullets by the BPCR shooters. And that is impressive. Three inch groups at 300 yards with cast bullets. Wow! But I am curious to see some ten shot or 20 shot 1 MOA cast bullet groups in Winchester M1894 and Marlin 336 lever action rifles. I can't get mine to shoot better than 2.0" with jacketed, and I shot a lot of bullets in testing.

I am still in my Bullseye target phase. Maybe I will grow out of it, but I am shooting every weekend, sometimes Saturday and Sunday, either small bore prone or high power rifle. I would really like to see some of those 1 MOA lever actions on the firing line.

mehavey · April 16, 2014, 01:04 PM

Guide Gun's nothing but a 336. but I guarantee a long day
even with moderate cast bullets gets tiiiiring:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post1839094

.

Paul B. · April 16, 2014, 03:52 PM

"But I've been amazed at how well I could get small-caliber cast (i.e., 30cal) to shoot in modern
rifles. And with similar 10-12 twist rates between the various 30cal rifles, I see no reason that the
30-30 wouldn't shoot as well as the 308 or 30-06 at similar velocities in the 1,800fps range."

You have to consider the platform, I have several rifles in 30-30. A couple of M94s, one from 1911 with a trigger pull that darn near takes a hydraulic jack to make it trip the hammer to a Winchester M54 that ain't too purty on the outside but the bore is like a shiny new dime. Another M94 is from 1981, two M64s, one from 1938 that is decently accurate and the other from 1951 that thinks it's a shotgun. The M54 has been good for 1.5" but probably would shoot better if shot by someone who could see. I has a receiver sight but I have trouble seeing the front sight. I've since had cataract surgery but haven't had a chance to run up a batch of ammo to see if it makes any difference. I did have a Marlin that was good for one inch groups but I sold it to a friend who had his 30-30 stolen. I kind of miss that one.

Paul B.

Axelwik · April 16, 2014, 04:42 PM

I use the 173 grain Lyman gas check mold in my '94. Very accurate; the gas checks cost me around 3 cents apiece.

reloader28 · April 17, 2014, 09:04 AM

Slamfire, nice groups on those targets.
I dont have any targets of my own. They go in the burn barrel when I'm done shooting.

I'm not into competition so I know it was only a 4 shot group, but it was from a Marlin with the RCBS boolit.

Mehavey, I aint seen that Steve Martin show in a long time. Thanks for that.

April 15, 2014, 02:26 AM	#1
ckpj99 Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2011 Posts: 386	30-30: Harder Cast Lead or Gas Checked Lead So I've begun reloading for .30-30 and frankly bullet availability and cost stinks. Lever Evolution bullets seem to occasionally be available. I finally found some Speer Hot-Cor 170 grain flat points. 100 of those costs me about $25, which really cuts into the saving of reloading. I've found a bit more variety in lead bullets. I bought 500 for about $50 (Magnus brand), which actually makes reloading worth it in terms of cost. The issue with shooting most lead bullets is that you have to run them so slow. I have my 165 grain bullets running at about 1500 fps to prevent leading. Most loads for jacketed bullets I've seen run in the 2000-2200 fps range, and factory Lever Evolution 160 grain rounds run at 2400 fps. So by shooting lead, you really loose a lot of power. My 165 grain load has about the same energy as a .357 magnum at the muzzle. What I'd really like is either a harder cast lead bullet that I can run up to 2000 fps, or an affordable gas checked bullet. Again, this is all simply to avoid paying the high cost of jacketed bullets. However, I really haven't been able to find either of these options. The few gas checked bullets I've found have cost just as much as jacketed, $25/100 or so. And I haven't really been able to find harder lead bullets for .30-30. So I guess my questions are: 1) How hard (brinell hardness) does a bullet need to be to run at 2000 fps? 2) What are some options for finding hard cast bullets that are that hard? 3) Is there a cheap gas checked 30-30 bullet out there? I'm open to any and all opinions. Thanks!

April 15, 2014, 10:15 AM	#6
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,758	30-30 Cast gas check vs Jacketed You want gas checked lead. But as you have found out, they cost the same as jacketed, if you buy them. Cast your own and use 4895 powder. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/827...eck-box-of-100

April 15, 2014, 04:22 PM	#8
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	A couple of years ago I decided to try cast bullets in my Marlin 336. I never had any luck with plain base bullets in previous testing in the 303 Brit, 30-06, so I used gas checks which add to the cost. My Marlin 336 is a microgroove, I did not slug the barrel. All I did was size the bullets with a 310 sizer, measure them with a decent micrometer, and they measured 0.3095”. I used Red Rooster bullet lube. The rifle is scoped with a Luepold 1X4. I shot 170 grain Sierra Round nose over the chronograph to check on velocity. This is not the only group I shot with this load, all groups showed a pattern of vertical stringing. I have tested a lot of powders in this rifle and to date, the best 100 yard group with 170 Hornady FPFB is a five shot group 2.0" in diameter at 100 yards. A grain above or below and the groups are huge, six inches or more is not uncommon. Small changes in velocity result in big changes in point of impact. I found that the chamber headspace is huge , if measured from the shoulder. New cases fall correctly into my Wilson case gage but fired cases are 0.017" above "No Go". To prevent case stretch, which with this much headspace, would most certainly result in case head separations, I am lubing my new cases. This keeps the case sidewalls from adhering to the chamber, and that slides the case to the bolt face. I have adjusted my sizing die so that the shoulder is pushed back about 0.003" after the first firing. The throat is way up the barrel. I tried seating a 170 Hornady long, I was able to feed the round into the magazine and the chamber, but I was unable to extract the round. A loaded round has to be less than the distance from the front of the loading port to the ejector, which is just about 2.550". To extract this round I had to remove the loading lever and pull the bolt out. Unfortunately the throat is so far up the barrel that even with a overly long round, I never touched the rifling. I commented about my problems, frustrations with the accuracy of the thing over lunch with some long range friends; they had been testing equipment that day, their groups at 100 yards were all nickel sized or less, and the comment from them was "these rifles are for those whose targets are at 50 yards". I have been using AA5744 with cast bullets and it is an excellent powder. I tried other powders and the low extreme spreads with AA5744 convinced me that this powder was the best for this application The Lyman manual gives advice to use the lower powder charge in Marlin Microgroove barrels. That charge is 18.0 grains of AA5744. I went below that to see what happens. The first shot was incredibly low at 100 yards. I had to crank up 15 MOA on the scope to place the other nine shots in a 3.4 inch group. Velocity was only 1400 fps. The recommended load was just at what the Lyman manual predicted, 1600 fps. I had a wild first shot, way off to the left. I adjusted and the next wild shot was way to the right. I put the windage back at zero and shot the eight shot group below. I think this is the best group of the day, but not by much. Just one grain more, 19.0 grains of AA5744, and 88 fps more, and I got a blown group. Every increase in powder just created larger blown groups. The chronograph data for 20.0 grs is included for reference. The other loads I created, I am going to disassemble them and re use the bullets. I did not see any keyholing on the target, just shot gun sized groups. The BHN of my bullets were as noted above, not too hard, not too soft. I think I am going to have to be happy with 1600 fps in this rifle. If you notice, AA5744 gives decent Standard Deviations and Extreme Spreads. I think this is a good powder to use in my rifle. Code: Marlin M336 microgroove barrel, 170 gr Sierra RN 29.4 grs H322 R-P cases WLR 28 Sept 2008 T = 70 °F Ave Vel = 2132 Std Dev = 15 ES = 50 High = 2154 Low = 2104 N = 10 \ 173 gr 311041 GC sized .310 Lyman #2 alloy 16.0 grs AA5744 CCI200 OAL 2.550 R-R cases trimmed 2.020" 28 Sept 2008 T = 70 °F Ave Vel = 1438 Std Dev = 17 ES = 35 High = 1444 Low = 1409 N = 10 Nine shot group 2.7" X 3.4" Elevation plus 15 MOA from 170 Sierra 173 gr 311041 GC sized .310 Lyman #2 alloy 18.0 grs AA5744 CCI200 OAL 2.550 R-P cases trimmed 2.020" 28 Sept 2008 T = 70 °F Ave Vel = 1603 Std Dev = 9 ES = 33 High = 1620 Low = 1587 N = 10 two wild shots, then eight shot group in middle. 3" X 2.3" best group 173 gr 311041 GC sized .310 Lyman #2 alloy 19.0 grs AA5744 CCI200 OAL 2.550 R-P cases trimmed 2.020" 28 Sept 2008 T = 70 °F Ave Vel = 1688 Std Dev = 17 ES = 66 High = 1732 Low = 1666 N = 17 Blown group, inconsistent pattern 173 gr 311041 GC sized .310 Lyman #2 alloy 20.0 grs AA5744 CCI200 OAL 2.550 R-P cases trimmed 2.020" 28 Sept 2008 T = 70 °F Ave Vel = 1719 Std Dev = 16 ES = 46 High = 1742 Low = 1696 N = 10 Blown huge group Don’t expect target grade accuracy with a lever action. I conducted a bunch of testing and the best ten shot group was 2.0” and that was exceptional for my rifle. The second best load produced 2.5” group, and I consider groups in the 3 inch range entirely acceptable for a lever action, sometimes factory ammunition gave inch groups. Anyone who claims MOA in a lever action will need to produce a 20 shot group before I take their claim seriously. __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

April 15, 2014, 06:08 PM	#9
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,933	"Everyone talks about long-range this and long-range that, as if we all live in NV / UT / AZ / NM / WY, etc." Well, I lived in northern NV for almost 10 years until a job transfer moved me to southern AZ. Someone mentioned that the 30-30 was one of the best cartridges for cast bullets going and they won't get an argument from me. One that might be even better is the .32 Win. Spl. with it's 1 in 16" twist. I'll let you know after I find the mold I want and the proper sizing die. The .32 is a very recent acquisition that I haven't shot yet. However, I can talk about cast bullets in the 30-30 as I've been loading for that round for over 50 years. My bullet of choice is the Lyman #311291, a nominally 175 gr. round nose bullet design from, IIRC 1905. I won't give the charge but the powder id W748 and I push a BHN 12 bullet to 2000 FPS. It's been sudden death on 15 deer. I've taken two more deer with the RCBS #30-180-FN at 1950 FPS. Two things that arfe important with cast, One the bullet has to be properly sized. With that Lyman bullet, I size to .310". Also the nose of the bullet must be a snug fit in the bore. Easy test is stick one in the muzzle. If it's loosed and wobbly, it won't be accurate worth spit. If it's snug, or even large enough to be slightly engraved by the rifling, then you're good to go. I seat my bullets so the nose is impinging slightly onto the lands. I give the bullets a tight enough crimp that they do not get pushed back into the shell, nor do they pull out of the case when extracted. Another popular bullet for the 30-30 is the Lyman #31141 now labeled #311041 to make their computor happy and it looks like a good on. I have two molds for that bullet plus a clone by NEI and I've never been able to get it to give me any accuracy on any of my 30-30 rifles. Lots of people like it and say they get good results but so far, nothing I've tried works for me. Just the luck of the draw I guess. Paul B, __________________ COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!

April 16, 2014, 11:06 AM	#15
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	That's a good group, very excellent, but yours is in a M70 in 30-06. But, that is still only a seven shot group. If you only fired seven rounds per target in small bore prone, you would be down 120 points per match, assuming all the rest were in the ten ring. So you would lose 360 points from the start. A typical small bore match is either 120 rounds, or 160 shot for record, and just this weekend, the match winner was only down five points. I have attended regionals where after 320 record shots, there were multiple shooters who had shot perfect 3200’s. Everyone shoots perfect five shot groups once in a while: 50 yards prone with a sling: Sometimes I even do it at 100 yards: __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

April 15, 2014, 05:44 AM	#2
Mike / Tx Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2000 Posts: 2,137	Well first things first, if you are planning on using these for hunting, your actually barking up the wrong tree wanting something harder. You are stuck in the jacketed bullet speed is everything mode of thinking. This isn't wrong, but with cast it simply works differently. With jacketed bullets you NEED speed to get expansion so that the smaller tip of the bullet will initiate the jacket to rupture and roll back. With cast there is no jacket, and the lead will roll back on its own. As for the speeds required, well that depends on the alloy and you don't have to use super hard alloy for a good hunting load nor do you need a lot of speed. I was just researching this myself and was reading on it in this link,What-do-you-consider-the-minium-velocity-for-a-30 You will find that with cast loads you get better accuracy in the 1600'ish or just a bit faster range. With a softer alloy you CAN get by without a GC'ed bullet IF the fit and lube are right for your barrel. Even with a GC'ed version however you don't necessarily need to push the upper limits of velocity, you simply need to work up an accurate load and then stick within the limits of that load for your hunting. Think back a hundred and fifty years ago. Most if not all bullets were almost if not pure lead, and they weren't driven to warp speed velocity, yet they reliably worked on just about everything they were used against. __________________ LAter, Mike / TX

April 15, 2014, 09:32 AM	#4
reloader28 Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: nw wyoming Posts: 1,061	I agree with Mike. The need for speed is not there. I'm using a load going about 1880fps with 165gr and that is my fast hunting load. 50/50/2% gas checked bullets around 9-10 BHN, and they perform as good if not better than ANY kind of copper patched thing you can buy in the store going 2200fps. I think 30-30's are almost the most perfect gun for cast bullets. My 30-30's aint seen a jacketed bullet in quite awhile and will never see another one. Look for something around 9-10 BHN, gas checked and sized around .310. Try between 1600-1700fps. You wont be disappointed unless you want more recoil.

April 15, 2014, 10:10 AM	#5
BumbleBug Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2013 Location: Near Heart of Texas Posts: 870	I can not speak from experience but I can pass along what I've seen & heard from an acquaintance at my gun club. He was getting ready for deer season & he was zeroing in his 30-30 with a ghost ring sight. He was shooting paper-patched bullet that he has cast & rolled himself. The bullets were cast out of dead-soft lead & patched in oil soaked linen paper. He said that he could get the velocity close to 2,000 fps & the bullets expanded in deer size game as big as a quarter! I did a little research & it seem that his technique has a following in the shooting community. BTW, he was shooting some fantastic groups at 100 yds with the peep sight & his home-rolled bullets! FWIW... ...bug

April 15, 2014, 02:53 PM	#7
ckpj99 Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2011 Posts: 386	Thanks for your help folks. I think I'll stick with the Magnus for now. They load well in my equipment, and after doing some additionally research, they are pretty hard cast. Something around 14-17 brinell depending on who you ask. This means I should be able to push them at 1600 fps without much of an issue, and based on what you guys have said, 1600 fps has pretty good power behind it. I do have some jacketed on the way for when I occasionally want to shoot faster.

April 16, 2014, 01:40 AM	#11
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	plated? http://www.xtremebullets.com/308-150...50fp-b0500.htm the 762x38 runs great close to 2000fps, these would surely make a good 30-30 bullet, not sure if appropriate for hunting though if thats your objective but if your looking to save cash and stay in the 1800fps range, these would be perfect for target read the reviews at the bottom and you see many running in ar10s etc, only to assume pretty high velocities

April 16, 2014, 09:00 AM	#12
reloader28 Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: nw wyoming Posts: 1,061	Slamfire, if your not shooting a scoped gun any better than a 3" group at 100yds than either your gun is junk or your load definately needs work. My open sight, lever action 44 and 30-30's shoot 3", and thats because of me. Scoped 30-30 shoots 1", all with cast boolits. Paul, I've had the same luck with 31141 in my guns. My cousin and brother like that one in theirs. I prefer the RCBS 150 SP. Drops at 160gr and shoots very good for me. Now I'm playing with the NOE clone of the Ranch Dog 165. Drops at 170 gr and is a sledgehammer of a boolit. Huge meplat.

April 16, 2014, 10:52 AM	#14
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 7,210	I'm not about to shoot 10-20 same-load bullets at one target when 6-7 will do: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post2466518 <Big Grin>

April 16, 2014, 01:04 PM	#18
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 7,210	Guide Gun's nothing but a 336. but I guarantee a long day even with moderate cast bullets gets tiiiiring: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post1839094 . Last edited by mehavey; April 16, 2014 at 06:20 PM.

April 16, 2014, 03:52 PM	#19
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,933	"But I've been amazed at how well I could get small-caliber cast (i.e., 30cal) to shoot in modern rifles. And with similar 10-12 twist rates between the various 30cal rifles, I see no reason that the 30-30 wouldn't shoot as well as the 308 or 30-06 at similar velocities in the 1,800fps range." You have to consider the platform, I have several rifles in 30-30. A couple of M94s, one from 1911 with a trigger pull that darn near takes a hydraulic jack to make it trip the hammer to a Winchester M54 that ain't too purty on the outside but the bore is like a shiny new dime. Another M94 is from 1981, two M64s, one from 1938 that is decently accurate and the other from 1951 that thinks it's a shotgun. The M54 has been good for 1.5" but probably would shoot better if shot by someone who could see. I has a receiver sight but I have trouble seeing the front sight. I've since had cataract surgery but haven't had a chance to run up a batch of ammo to see if it makes any difference. I did have a Marlin that was good for one inch groups but I sold it to a friend who had his 30-30 stolen. I kind of miss that one. Paul B. __________________ COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!

April 16, 2014, 04:42 PM	#20
Axelwik Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2012 Location: Land of Enchantment Posts: 436	I use the 173 grain Lyman gas check mold in my '94. Very accurate; the gas checks cost me around 3 cents apiece.

April 17, 2014, 09:04 AM	#21
reloader28 Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: nw wyoming Posts: 1,061	Slamfire, nice groups on those targets. I dont have any targets of my own. They go in the burn barrel when I'm done shooting. I'm not into competition so I know it was only a 4 shot group, but it was from a Marlin with the RCBS boolit. Mehavey, I aint seen that Steve Martin show in a long time. Thanks for that.