Handgun stopping power

[Polglock]

I've heard so much about handguns "don't have stopping power" and this or that round won't kill this or that animal. But yesterday I was shooting into 7' tall 4' thick round hay bails on our farm and every 40 and 45 round not only penetrated the compressed wet bails but blew through 1/4 inch ply wood on the back. This is no scientific experiment or anything conclusive but I have a whole new respect for what a handgun caliber factory load can actually do. I think if the rounds were blowing through these, a deer a hog or human wouldn't stand a chance if shots were well placed. I guess I'm just a hillbilly and I'm gonna start doing the penetration test on 4'thick bails instead of gelitan lol. I didn't think at all the rounds would make it out the other side, let alone have energy left. There's no point to be made here just sharing what I thought to be pretty cool.

[SHE3PDOG]

If you were just shooting FMJ range ammo or wadcutters, that really isn't very surprising.

[481]

Originally Posted by Polglock:

I've heard so much about handguns "don't have stopping power" and this or that round won't kill this or that animal. But yesterday I was shooting into 7' tall 4' thick round hay bails on our farm and every 40 and 45 round not only penetrated the compressed wet bails but blew through 1/4 inch ply wood on the back. This is no scientific experiment or anything conclusive but I have a whole new respect for what a handgun caliber factory load can actually do. I think if the rounds were blowing through these, a deer a hog or human wouldn't stand a chance if shots were well placed. I guess I'm just a hillbilly and I'm gonna start doing the penetration test on 4'thick bails instead of gelitan lol. I didn't think at all the rounds would make it out the other side, let alone have energy left. There's no point to be made here just sharing what I thought to be pretty cool.

I've heard that those hay bales can become pretty ornery when they get wet -and even moreso when they are compressed.

Glad that you are safe now.

[NateKirk]

Just because it can punch a hole in something doesn't necessarily mean it will kill it. A living body won't instantly die when hit with the amount of force behind most handgun calibers. It will die eventually, without treatment, but not instantly. So stopping power as killing power shouldn't be considered with handguns. Train yourself to shoot important things (head, hips, heart) if you want stopping power, because just plain 'ol shooting them wont stop them fast enough.

[Brian Pfleuger]

I've heard so much about handguns "don't have stopping power"

not only penetrated the compressed wet bails but blew through 1/4 inch ply wood on the back.

I think you're confusing "stopping power" with "knockdown power".

All guns can "stop" people. Poke holes, people bleed. They either stop voluntarily or involuntarily, eventually, depending on what you damage and how strong their resolve happens to be. Excessive penetration may or may not be a good thing, situationally dependent.

Knockdown power is a myth, at least as far as any man-portable handgun or rifle is concerned.

[BigJimP]

In Tactical Defense....its not about caliber....its about Shot Placement / not bulls eye accuracy ( Tactical Accuracy ) ....and how quickly you can put 2 or 3 shots there....( 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 acp, .357 mag) really doesn't matter too much...in my view...

Tactical target zone...in my view....is center chest...( in a roughly 8" by 11" rectangle ) ....( nipple to nipple ...and down to the belly button area...on a torso)....and there are a number of targets, where that rectangle is outlined.

[Polglock]

I don't think I'm confused on stopping power vs knockdown power." I" believe they're the same thing. Shooting in the head, heart, lungs is going to stop someone, eventually within seconds knock them down so I think they're the same thing. I guess the whole point of the post was to contradict what I've read a lot. People would always say a .40 or .45 was not a good deer round ill say for instance. But why not. A well placed shot will have enough penetration through a vital area to make a humane kill. I myself just didn't realize how much penetration a semi auto round had until yesterday. I had targets pinned to the bales also. I just want you guys to thik I was blasting in hay with no cause. I thought they'd make a good backdrop. But not as good as I thought.

[Polglock]

Bigjimp I agree with you completely.

[Ruger45LC]

Those kind of experiments are always fun. It's true that although they may not be the most popular options for deer or hog, both can and do work on them surprisingly well as long as there is proper shot placement, that and using the right bullet for the task. Just put the bullet where it needs to go that's the most important thing, as bullets are just too small to physically, literally stop a human, deer, hog, etc, they just poke holes in vital organs.

[PointOneSeven]

I chopped down a tree once with .38 special.


It was a 4" thick alder tree, but it still counts .


Informal testing is the most fun.

[ATN082268]

I think caliber and load make a significant difference in stopping a target, otherwise you'd see guys running around with stuff like a .38 with light loads to defend against bear...

[Brian Pfleuger]

I don't think I'm confused on stopping power vs knockdown power." I" believe they're the same thing.

Well then you're definitely confused.

Handguns do not have "knock down power". In fact, no man portable weapon will "knock down" a man sized target. Killing/disabling it so it FALLS down later is not "knock down power" and stopping it at some indeterminate future time is not "stopping power". Finally, penetration is not "stopping power" and may, in fact, cause a round to LACK stopping power.

If penetration was stopping power, we'd all be carrying FMJ rounds instead of hollow points. An FMJ from most center-fire handgun rounds would penetrate 2 or 3 people. We're not interested in how far we can penetrate, once we've penetrated enough to reach the important bits of the person who's trying to hurt us. We're interested in making the attacker stop attacking. That can only be FORCED by disabling the nervous system or by blood loss. The nervous system is a small target and generally hard to hit. Blood loss is more reliable. All modern defensive rounds are designed to maximize damage, which maximizes blood loss. We're not interested in a small, clean hole all the way through. We're interested in wide, ragged holes and only concerned about getting enough penetration to reach vital organs.

Handguns most definitely DO lack stopping power. They do not carry sufficient energy to do any measurable damage beyond the tissue that is actually struck by the bullet. This is called Hydrostatic Shock and is generally nonexistent at speeds below 1,800fps and doesn't get really serious until you get above 2,600fps. That's why a 22 caliber center-fire rifle round is MUCH more deadly than a 45 caliber handgun round. Speed kills.

Handguns are rather poor defensive weapons. We only carry them because they're relatively small and convenient.

[Tomac]

My turn to beat the dead horse!

There's no such thing as "stopping power" or "knockdown power" as they cannot be measured or reproduced scientifically.

All handguns are relatively poor "stoppers", regardless of caliber or bullet used. As previously mentioned, shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary (ex: we want expansion but we need sufficient penetration).
Barring a hit to the CNS, the only way to stop an aggressive and determined BG is shutting down the brain from oxygen deprivation due to bleedout and even a solid hit to the heart can leave 10+ seconds worth of brain function, plenty of time for the BG to plant daisies in your hair.
Tomac

[Guv]

Sort of related but maybe not, I conducted a "backwoods" experiment one time with a piece of phenolic 1" thick and a 357mag, 45ACP and a 30-30. The 357158gr hollow point kind of chewed the first 16th of an inch off before going off to the side, the 45 looked like a hit from a ball peen hammer. All shots were taken at about 25 yards. The 30-30 170gr made a nice 30 cal hole going in and a beautiful tappered hole about 4"s in diameter going out the back. Gave me some new found respect for the old 30-30.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Tomac

There's no such thing as "stopping power" or "knockdown power" as they cannot be measured or reproduced scientifically.

Actually, that's not true. Studies have shown that bullet impact can effect nerve function at locations distant from the actual bullet path and most any hunter has seen the effects of the shock-wave produced by high-speed rifle rounds. A 1/4-1/3" rifle bullet that blows a small animal in half certainly does not hit the entire animal. This can be done even with bullets that are not designed to "explosively" expand. For instance, shoot a woodchuck with a .30-06 deer round... a lesson in hydrostatic shock.

It certainly exists, it just doesn't exist at handgun velocities.

[Hal]

There's no such thing as "stopping power" or "knockdown power" as they cannot be measured or reproduced scientifically.

Maybe yes/maybe no.
I do know there is something power wise going on when a bullet hits something.

I shot empty Coke cans once with a .22, a .357mag, a .44mag and a .30/30 Winchester.

The .22 put holes in the cans and sometimes knocked them over. So did the magnums only the holes were bigger and when they did get knocked down, some of them took a pretty good jump.

The .30/30 OTOH, unraveled the cans and flattened them out and sent them ~ 30 feet straight up in the air.

My conclusion is that - - something power wise is going on & the faster .30/30 causes more of it.

[Polglock]

I still say stopping power is knockdown power when hunting. Like a deer as said before. Shooting the animal through a vital area such as the heart will stop the animal and it will fall down because of the shot hence knocking it down. So for me in a hunting situation penitration is key. It means going through thick hide through two lungs and ribs exiting causing an entrance and exit hole causing more blood lose therefore penitration is key when hunting. that's what I was using as an example. For self defense yes I would want my round to stop in my intended target. But after seeing jhp's go through 4' of wet compressed hay and plywood it made me think the jhp would also go through and out a human. It just made me think other wise of things I've read that's all. And by no means I'm I trying to argue. It's just my opinion/thought on knockdown and stopping power. I understand a handgun round won't physically knock some one down or stop them physically even though it may. But all together like said before a shot to 529 head with a 45 will stop the person killing them therefor knock them down.

[Hal]

I see where you're coming from - it's just that - like mentioned above - there isn't any set way to measure or relate "stopping/knockdown" power.

In my example with the empty Coke cans, the .44 magnum (240 grain @ ~ 1400 fps) was less than impressive.

OTOH - the 150 grain .30/30@ ~2400 fps was extremely impressive.

But - which one would drop a big brown bear, an elk or a moose?

As it is, the best measurement that can be applied is how many ft. pounds of energy a round has & even that is pretty worthless to know.

[Wishoot]

the 30-30 170gr made a nice 30 cal hole going in and a beautiful tappered hole about 4"s in diameter going out the back. Gave me some new found respect for the old 30-30.

Love the 30-30.

Unfortunately, I haven't found a good IWB holster for the Winchester 94 yet

[Dusty Rivers]

Don't hide behind a hay bale or a typical house sheet rock wall. In fact don't hide behind your car door, hide behind the engine.

OK so you get hit by a corvette going 120 MPH or an 18 wheeler going 30 MPH. There are two components at work, mass and speed, Yes speed is destructive, but also yes mass is destructive. If the corvette or 18 wheeler runs over your foot, more than likely you will survive. If it runs over your head, more than likely you will not.

One other factor is distance. A 22 probably can kill a deer at 10 yards if hit in the correct spot, but more than likely it will not kill that same deer ay 100 yards even if you manage to hit it in the same spot.

If the exit hole of a fired shot is the same size as the entry hole that round has a less likely desired outcome as a round that has a bigger exit hole.

Lessen learned--don't hide behind a hay bale and don't shoot at anything with any round unless you intend bad things to happen. You may stop it, you may dispatch it, or you may not- no matter what you shoot it with, or hit it with
(corvette or 18 wheeler.

On the other hand an 18 wheeler going 120 MPH = shot gun riffled slug

[Guv]

We had an explosion of a test stand at work and had to build a 3/4" Lexan box around it for future testing. Just to prove a point a couple of engineers shot a spare piece with various cartridges. All failed to penetrate the Lexan, 223 55gr FMJ rifle, 45ACP 230HydraShock, 9mm 124 +p, 380. I put one in it on a different day with a 180gr Speer out of a 10" T/C 357 Max and blew a nice hole all the way through. I won some wings on that deal!

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Polglock

I still say stopping power is knockdown power when hunting. Like a deer as said before. Shooting the animal through a vital area such as the heart will stop the animal and it will fall down because of the shot hence knocking it down.

So long as you specify that you are defining words in a way that is exclusive to you so that others know that the words have a different meaning than they normally would, you are entirely correct. You have to be correct, actually, since you are defining the words.

However, the way you are using those words is completely different than they are typically used.

It's also inconsistent with your own usage of the words in the first post of this thread. Originally, you equated "stopping power" with penetration.

Stopping power is not knock down power, knock down power is not stopping power, penetration is not knock down power, penetration is not stopping power.

[Nanuk]

I love when people say there is no such thing as stopping power. Sure there is you just need to define it and keep your responses in context. For example if you have to shoot to defend your self and shoot said BG and he flee's immediately after being struck is that not a stop? In all the shootings I worked or saw very few people were instantly stopped and the vast majority of those were decisive CNS hits.

The other one I really like is rifle velocity VS handgun velocity.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Fac...ore_Kocher.pdf

I was shooting round bales one year with my bow, bad move the arrows were lost in the bale and the horses chewed them up.

[Brian Pfleuger]

I love when people say there is no such thing as stopping power.

A "stop" is not the same thing as "stopping power". All guns and all bullets have some measure of stopping power.

I could poke your finger with a needle and if we let it bleed long enough you might pass out. Does that means a needle has "stopping power"?

Stopping power is simply the ability to force something or someone to stop doing what they're doing. The "power" side of it is some sort of measure as to how quickly the cartridge/firearm in question is likely to effect that stop. If Cartridge A makes someone stop in an average of 3 seconds and Cartridge B makes someone stop in an average of 5 seconds, we can say that A has more "stopping power". (If only it were that simple.)

I say again, Stopping Power is not the same as Knockdown Power. "Knockdown Power" is something that no (civilian) man-potable weapon has... no rifle, no handgun, no shotgun. It is physically impossible. Physically Impossible. Physically, as in the laws of physics. Impossible, as in violates those laws of physics.

And again, as relates to the OP of this thread, stopping power does not equal penetration.

[Ruger480]

I say again, Stopping Power is not the same as Knockdown Power. "Knockdown Power" is something that no (civilian) man-potable weapon has... no rifle, no handgun, no shotgun. It is physically impossible. Physically Impossible. Physically, as in the laws of physics. Impossible, as in violates those laws of physics.

I will agree with 100% except first I need to know: will those riot control beanbags fired from shotguns knockdown a person if say...shot in the face or ear?