357 load in 38 shells

[fshfindr]

I have a load of .38 Spec. once or twice fired shells. Mostly I shoot .38's at the range, but I always like to throw in some 357's, just because I like to shoot them. I also have about 7 pounds of Unique powder. Normally I load 3.8g for the 148g LSWC's or 150g LRN .38's where the max. 4.2g. With that load of powder I could easily fit a double load into the shell. Is there some reason why I can't load my 38's with 357 loads? I'm shooting a 357 Colt Trooper with an 8 inch bbl. Of course I would stay below .357 max. loads.

[Jim Watson]

Reduced volume of the .135" shorter Special case would make even a "below .357 max" powder charge a potential overload even for your magnum gun.

Although you show a maximum Special load of 4.2 grains Unique with 150 gr bullet, there have been several barge loads of Specials loaded with 5.0. If that is not enough, look up .38-44 Heavy Duty loads and see if somebody has not used Unique at that level. It approximates modern .38 +P+ with a 158 grain lead bullet at 1050 fps or more.

[buck460XVR]

Is there some reason why I can't load my 38's with 357 loads?

Not really except for the fact you may die tomorrow and in administering the estate there may be an auction at which your reloads might go up for sale. Some poor fool might buy them for his .38 cause they say .38 on the case.

[shaunpain]

I've also thought about this, but I ALSO think that reduced case volume could be an issue. Instead of going that route, why not just tune those cases up to +P levels? I'd look for anyone who has done so, repeatedly, hundreds of times, with no adverse effects.

[mehavey]

Seat the bullet at 357 OALs IF (and only if) a crimp is groove available at the resulting case mouth position.
If that's possible, then you have comparable case/powder volumes.

[BigJimP]

I wouldn't do it .....it would be too easy to mix up these "hot loads" in a .38 spl gun...

I load the same bullet ( 158 gr JSP - Montana Gold ) for .38 spl and .357 mag / with different powder charges of course. So just keeping a case of bullets on hand for the 2 combined calibers...keeps my inventory a little simpler. But I load .38 spl recipes ...in .38 spl cases only.../....and .357 Mag recipes in .357 mag cases only....

Brass is pretty cheap / and easy to come by in .357 mag... and I know I've loaded some of the .357 mag cases I have 15 or more times...before they crack.../ so rather than fooling around with it, I'd say, just pick up some .357 mag cases...then you don't have to worry about it.

[bedbugbilly]

It's always been my impression that a .357 casing, besides being longer than a .38 spl, has a heavier base construction to it.

The answer though to your question is yes, you probably could . . but why? If you're shooting a .357, get .357 casings. YOU may know that you have .38 casings loaded to .357 pressures . . . but what about someone else? All it would take is for someone . . . and it could be even you .. . to put one of those in a .38 spl revolver and shoot it. But then if your health insurance is all paid up . . your injuries might be covered.

If you have a good reloading manual . . . there should be a warning about this. If you don't have one . . . you really need to get one.

[Tom Servo]

I'll have to look up chapter and verse, but Elmer Keith's loads used .38 cases. He remarked that the Winchester loads weren't as accurate as his, and that the case length may have been an issue.

I've known a few experienced reloaders to do the same thing over the years, and I've not seen any problems.

[chris in va]

38 Special runs about 16,000 CUP. 357 is around 37,000 CUP. You really want to take a chance doubling the intended pressure with a less robust case?

[mehavey]

All the real strength in the 357 is in the steel cylinder walls -- which completely enclose the soft brass case sides fully back to the rim.

But if someone can produce a cutaway comparison of the 357 vs 38 construction in the same brand, I'd appreciate it.
(It's a bit late here, and the Dremel tool winding up like dentist drill at midnight might cause SWMBO to question my sanity.)**







** more than usual.

[Jim243]

Hmmmm, same OAL as a 357 load??? In a 38 SPL case, that would have to be a hell of a long bullet to make up for the difference.

But all kidding aside, have you considered that the shorter 38 spl case loaded to 357 will be flame cutting your cylinder every time you fire one of those puppies off????? Not to mention what it is doing to your forcing cone at the same time.

Hope you are using a cheap 357 mag revolver so it won't loose that much value from your abusing it. ORRRRRRRR you could use 357 mag cases and avoid the problem completely.

Jim

[mikejonestkd]

Brass is cheap, fingers and eyeballs are not cheap.

Use 357 brass for 357 loads.

[salvadore]

fshfndr, I load both the 358156 solid and HP along with 358429 using 2400 and Skeeter and Elmer's recipe...well not quite, I reduce Skeeter's load by .5 grains and Elmer's bullet with 12 grs. in 38 cases. I shoot them in a S&W M-28 exclusively now, but have shot them in my M-60 Smith and a mid 1950s Colt OP. I think I'm suppose to put some kind of disclaimer here so these loads not to be used in .38 spec. they are at least 38+p+ and probably more.

I'm not sure how tough the Trooper is so this is for info only. Since I have large amounts of nickel +p brass I use them for the high pressure loads so they don't get mixed up with regular 38 loads.

Once again this is not a recommendation, just information.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

[Clark]

When I started handloading ~ 14 years ago, I told the late gunsmith, Randy Ketchum, that I cut down some 357 mag brass so I could shoot 357 mag loads in a 38 special.
He snapped back at me, "Why? 38 Special brass is plenty strong."
I immediately knew he was right.

Fast forward 14 years and I got my chance to test 38 special brass.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...=524835&page=2



I had to use magnum small rifle primers to get up to double 357 mag charges in 38 special brass.

[44 AMP]

.357 level loads in .38 cases? Of course its possible, how do you think they developed the .357 in the first place? BUT, is it a good idea?

Its not the brass that matters, .38 SPL brass is plenty strong enough, provided it is surrounded by a gun that is strong enough. The .357 case is .135" longer than the .38, not because the extra room was needed, but so the high pressure load would not chamber in a .38 SPL revolver which wasn't built to handle it.

And that is the risk you are running when you load .357 levels in .38 cases. ANY POSSIBILITY that the ammo might find its way into someone's .38 spl gun makes it a bad idea.

If you want to shoot .357 level loads, and all you have is .38 cases, sell or trade them for .357 cases. Otherwise, stick to .38 loads in .38 cases.

Really, that's better, all around.

Edited to add a technical correction. TY Jim.

[Jim Watson]

44 Amp, would you tell me the difference between a clip and a magazine if you thought I used the wrong term?

[salvadore]

fshfindr, I'm not sure but I believe 44 suggested you might be a moron.

44 is a responsible safety first staff type guy, as he should be, I'm more of a we kill for ice cream type and made my post suggesting you might not be a moron. A difference of perspective.

Just remember after being safe till it hurts some drunk could cross into your lane on the way to the range.

[fshfindr]

44 AMP, You and the others make sense. Therefore, I don't think It would make sense for me to use a .357 load in a .38 spec. shell, It was just an idea. But now looking at the book I see that .38+P max. is 5.2g. What makes 5.2g safe in a .38 if the listed max. for .38 is 4.7g? I don't understand why there is max. and then +P, or even +P+. The book does indicate that these hot loads may wear guns prematurely. Realistically, I may make and fire some +P's just for the fun of it. I am about to retire my Trooper, (I'll never sell it) and go to the Ruger 357. All of my refs. to "The book", are for Lee's second addition revised in 2011. Usually, Lee and Lyman are about the same. My Lyman manual is downstairs near my reloading bench. So Clark I do have the books. Jim W. I don't know what you're talking about. This is a great forum with great people and great info. Thanks to all.

[Jim Watson]

Categories of .38: The "maximum" is a load level that develops chamber pressure not much different from the first smokeless ammo over a hundred years ago.
+P is about 10% greater.
+P+ is whatever the ammo maker thinks the guns will stand. The major brands will normally produce it only on order from a government agency specifying the guns to be used. Some of the boutique houses will sell you souped up ammo labled +P+ at your own risk. What I have seen data for amounts to another 10-15% higher pressure.
That is still far under .357 Magnum chamber pressure. I assume your 8" Trooper is a Mk III or Mk V with .357 cylinder. I doubt you could wear it out with any usual amount of .38 Special at any load level and don't know what you will shelve it to preserve it for.

My last post was directed at 44 AMP on the jargon front, not directly related to heavy .38 loads.

[Nick_C_S]

I load more 38 Special rounds than any other ammo. However, I always shoot them through a 357 Magnum revolver(s). (I have only one 38 Spl revolver - a M60 snubbie and it's a safe queen.)

One problem with 38 Special is that it isn't a high enough pressure round to see signs of over (SAAMI) pressures. By the time you see pressure signs (flattened primers, split case mouths, bulged cases, difficult extraction, etc), you are WAAAAY over normal 38 Special pressures.

So when loading 38+P rounds, if I exceed the published data by even 1/10th of a grain, I mark the box "For 357 guns only." This is a rare event, btw. And never would I exceed by more than one or two tenths. But I do happen to have a partial box of such ammo loaded right now.

Like 44AMP said (paraphrasing): You can load 38 brass to 357 pressures, but should you? Nope. You shouldn't.

[mmb713]

While it's possible it's not a good idea for several reasons, some already stated. There is no published data for it which makes it really dicey. Also, Unique would not be a good choice to try to achieve 357 levels out of a 38 case, no matter how much of the stuff you could cram into the case. I would stick to 357 cases and slow pistol powders for magnum loads myself. I stick to 357 cases for 38 level loads too. When I started reloading I shot my last 38 Specials.

[fshfindr]

Jim W. I'm not concerned with wearing it out. The gun is a beautiful nichol 8" Mark III in very good condition. I've been firing it regularly for a long time now. It's just time for a change. Maybe my arm is tired of lifting it. Actually the weight is good because my surgically repaired 75 yr. old hands don't like a hard kick.

[44 AMP]

But now looking at the book I see that .38+P max. is 5.2g. What makes 5.2g safe in a .38 if the listed max. for .38 is 4.7g? I don't understand why there is max. and then +P, or even +P+.

It has to do with the guns you shoot them out of. The .38 Special was introduced in 1902. Since then, lots of guns have been made in .38. Small ones, big ones, strong ones, weak ones (good enough for standard .38 Special loads, but no more..).

"Standard" .38 Special is a 158gr @ 850fps (or the equivalent speed for lighter or heavier bullets). Over time, demand for increased performance lead to experimenting with higher than standard pressures. Some .38s could handle greater pressures, some could not. Eventually the industry settled on pressures up to 10% over standard were to be called +P. Pressures above that were +P+, and other than being above +P there is no standard for +P+, its up to the manufacturer.

Each maker had to take a look at all their guns and decide, based on their strength (design specs, alloy used, heat treating, etc.) whether to rate them as ok to use +P or +P+ ammo.

Some guns are ok to shoot +P loads in, essentially forever. Others are ok to use with +P on an infrequent basis, and continued use will wear the gun faster than standard loads. Some guns are NOT recommended to use +P at all.

A .357 and a .38 can look identical, so you would think they are equally strong, but that is not the case. There may be differences in metallurgy and heat treating that make the .357 much stronger.

There are some models of .38 Special that are essentially as strong as a .357, but they are only a very small percentage of all the .38 Specials out there. If you have one of them, you could get away with .357 level loads in .38 special cases. But as I said before, any remote possibility that the .357 level ammo could wind up in a different gun makes it a potential risk. Maybe not to you, but to someone...potentially...

And, while I do have my less than "civil" moments, I do try hard not to call anyone a moron, directly, in print....people who are ignorant of something (meaning they genuinely do not know), may sound foolish asking certain questions to those "in the know", but that doesn't mean they are morons. Ignorance can be cured...but as Bill E says, "you can't fix stupid".

Besides being bad manners, and against forum rules, there's no need to call anyone stupid or a moron. (no personal attacks). If they are, they generally demonstrate it quite clearly.

Saying you are doing (or thinking of doing) a foolish/stupid/moronic thing is a different matter. Acting like an idiot is not (quite) the same thing as being an idiot, a point important to our civil discussions. In other words, if someone says its a stupid idea, don't take it personally. (especially if it is a stupid idea)

I hope I have layered on enough boilerplate to stop a small caliber AP round. Please keep those HEAT rounds in the ammo rack.

[fshfindr]

44 AMP, I took your comments as I believe you intended them. You answered my question and as I said earlier I am convinced. If someone wanted to read something else into your words, that's on them. Nuff said!

[Sevens]

Hmmmm, same OAL as a 357 load??? In a 38 SPL case, that would have to be a hell of a long bullet to make up for the difference.

But all kidding aside, have you considered that the shorter 38 spl case loaded to 357 will be flame cutting your cylinder every time you fire one of those puppies off????? Not to mention what it is doing to your forcing cone at the same time.

Hope you are using a cheap 357 mag revolver so it won't loose that much value from your abusing it. ORRRRRRRR you could use 357 mag cases and avoid the problem completely.

I don't agree with -ANY- of this and my experience in doing exactly this backs it up. The "damage" to the revolver that is claimed... ???! Show me.

A regular old 158gr Zero JSP can be loaded quite nicely in to .38 Special brass to a full COAL of a .357 Magnum load, you simply don't get to roll crimp in to the cannelure of the bullet. The loaded rounds run beautifully in all the .357 Magnum guns I've shot them in... and if you'll notice, I said "guns" and not revolvers, and that's a hint at what has driven me to build them in the first place.

My motivation was simple: I have .357 Magnum brass, but I don't have endless piles, bags, and coffee cans full of .357 Magnum brass. I also happen to have a Coonan that I thoroughly enjoy shooting, and the only thing that my Coonan loves even more then sending fireballs down range is to send brass in a full 360-degree range upon ejection. It's the Coonan's "full radius of handloader hell" and when you elect to shoot it on an indoor range, it throws a damn half box of precious brass forward of the firing line, where it becomes the property of the shooting range.

A nice medium point Sharpie pen imparts an ominous solid black line right over the case head & primer, it takes just a second or two to mark the entire box of 50 and the permanent ink stays on the case head and doesn't rub off with a finger or fade... but it's nice enough to leave -zero- evidence after normal brass tumbling in corn media.

Add to that the fact that all my flip-top boxes are well identified as to precisely what the loads are and the big mark on the case heads... I should hope that anyone who gets in to my ammo (if I'm dead!) is bright enough to figure out what they are looking at. And as a hundred buzillion of you folks have trotted out tens of thousands of times, "GASP! I'd -never- shoot someone else's handloads! "


There are reasons for some of us to do things that some of YOU would never do, no matter how sure you seem to be that there aren't, or never could be.
Thank goodness I'm in charge of what goes on at my bench.