Road Rage-Golf Club Scenario

motorcityhitman · December 9, 2013, 04:46 PM

I searched through scenarios but didn't come up with one like this one. If I did miss one I am sorry. Okay,here goes..
You're driving along in bumper to bumper traffic.Traffic speeds up and separates and some person cuts right in front of you.Traffic comes to a complete stop and the guy in front of you jumps out of his car with a 2 wood golf club in hand screaming that he is going to cave your head in for some imagined disrespect. As he pass's he:
#1-Takes out your headlight still screaming
#2-Puts a good sized dent in your hood..still screaming about caving your head in.
#3-Rears back and puts club through windshield getting bits of glass all over your wife and yourself..screaming.
#4-Rears back again to take out side window to get to you..screaming obscenities..
You are blocked in by other cars so there is no escape and evading.At which point would you feel justified in pulling your handgun and using it then a short explanation on how you chose and why.
Thank you in advance for your answers.
I have posted this on other forums so you're seeing not double.

zincwarrior · December 9, 2013, 04:58 PM

Well considering I'd be laughing right up until he swung it I'd say after #1.
He's now exhibited he is a threat and a significant level of derangement with a lethal weapon.

southjk · December 9, 2013, 05:13 PM

As soon as he got out with the golf club, I'd be on the phone dialing 911. I would feel protected from the golf club by my locked vehicle and not feel that my life was in any jeopardy. As soon as he went for the window, that is when I would imagine I'd start to feel threatened. That broken window exposes me and my passengers to the potentially lethal strikes of the golf club and I would use whatever tools I had at hand to stop him. Although, with my vehicle, I might attempt to ram his car forward enough for me to get around him. I'd much rather cause a little property damage rather then killing anyone.

sDot · December 9, 2013, 05:15 PM

I would probably go for my machete in the back first for more of a dramatic approach, even deranged psychos with golf clubs know machetes are not fun to be taught a lesson with.

DT Guy · December 9, 2013, 05:38 PM

As an LEO, I was once approached by a man across a parking lot who obviously wanted to speak to me.

While he was still 70+ feet away, another man exited a car behind him carrying a golf club, walked rapidly behind the first man and lifted the club to swing at his head.

While I (thankfully) did not have to shoot him, it forever revised my conception of shooting 'well enough', I have to say. And a man within arms reach of me swinging a club destroying property would have my undivided attention, since the time between when he cocks his arm back and when he aims and swings at my head might be a very, very short interval.

Larry

MTT TL · December 9, 2013, 05:50 PM

I am really surprised you did not come up with any results for how to deal with Happy Gilmore.

I am guessing I would be spraying my favorite chemical agent his way after swing number one and then sicking Bob Barker on him. After that I would have to see.

csmsss · December 9, 2013, 06:12 PM

A golf club is a deadly weapon just as much as a blade or a firearm. I would consider anyone approaching me, issuing threats and swinging a golf club to be an imminent deadly threat and react accordingly.

357 Python · December 9, 2013, 06:15 PM

Let's just say that "Happy Gilmore" would change his name to "Unhappy Gilmore" when the window was broken out.

Water-Man · December 9, 2013, 06:30 PM

Is the OP writing a Christmas story?

Bob Wright · December 9, 2013, 06:32 PM

sDot said:

Quote:

I would probably go for my machete in the back first for more of a dramatic approach, even deranged psychos with golf clubs know machetes are not fun to be taught a lesson with.

In Tennessee, that is likely to get you in deep trouble, moreso even than if you were to shoot the perpetrator.

You are guilty of carrying an illegal weapon with intent to go armed. With a permit, you have a "handgun carry permit." This has been adjudged to not extend to knives, brass knucks, billy clubs, baseball bats and the like. Maximum knife blade length is, I believe 1 3/4" or so. And there is a distinction made between home and auto.

Bob Wright

zincwarrior · December 9, 2013, 06:36 PM

Quote:

A golf club is a deadly weapon just as much as a blade or a firearm. I would consider anyone approaching me, issuing threats and swinging a golf club to be an imminent deadly threat and react accordingly.

Exactly. If I could get the vehicle out of the situation instantly, then its a self defense situation at that point.

madmo44mag · December 9, 2013, 06:38 PM

Once he exited the vehicle with a weapon I would be on the phone to 911.
Once I had 911 on the phone I would lay the phone on the dash on speaker phone and prepare to do what ever needed being done.
This way the 911 operator could hear what is transpiring and any warning I my give that he is about to be sent to the great driving range in the sky.

BarryLee · December 9, 2013, 06:48 PM

I once had a gentleman approach me in traffic and although he had no golf club he did make his dissatisfaction with me very clear. I basically sat in my car and ignored him until he approached my car and began to strike the window with his hands and elbow. At this point I simply showed him a small .38 and he reconsidered his previous course of action and returned to his car.

I never pointed the gun at him and was a long way from feeling the need to take any other action. However, I felt it best to let him know what awaited him if he did gain entry to my vehicle. I guess the point is sometimes simply letting the other person know you are prepared to defend yourself might be enough to defuse the situation.

MTT TL · December 9, 2013, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Is the OP writing a Christmas story?

I am sure.

Even assassins from Detroit have Christmas wishes. DFTT?

dayman · December 9, 2013, 08:14 PM

I'd probably draw discretely when he headed my way with the golf club. However, a golf club is only dangerous when the guy can actually hit you with it, so I would only shoot if/when the car was breached.
There are moral reasons.
But, I try not to discuss morals on the interweb.
There are fiscal reasons.
Since I drive a relatively new car on icy roads, I have insurance. So, the most money bashing my car up could possibly cost me is $500, and it seems likely that shooting someone would wind up being considerably more expensive than that.
Finally there are "situational" (maybe even "tactical"?) reasons.
In the given scenario traffic is packed so tightly that I can't get away. If that's the case, cars are certainly too close to start shooting unless it's absolutely necessary. Granted I only carry a woefully underpowered little 9mm, so it's probably just going to bounce off the car doors like a rubber ball

, but shooting into standstill traffic still seems like a great way to shoot an innocent.
If it came down to shooting or seeing my wife/kids hurt I'm pretty sure I'd shoot, but fortunately, with him outside and me inside at least I'd have some time to think.

This actually seems like one of those rare situations where a can of mace would be more useful than a gun.

leadcounsel · December 9, 2013, 08:57 PM

Yelling clear instructions at the assailant like, BACK OFF NOW! Maybe honking your horn to draw witnesses attention - more witnesses the better. You can't defend yourself with a gun until you feel threatened with imminent serious harm or death. I think that happens as he's trying to bust into your passenger compartment.

Situations like this are why I'm about to install my own front and rear cameras on my vehicle. I have the cameras, just need to put them in. They are very affordable and record into a HD card, have their own batteries and plug into the cig-liter.

Could really save your butt in a self-defense road rage situation like this. Documenting the other crazy guy's behavior and ultimately the assault better than any other evidence including 911 calls and witnesses (all are going to be biased). You cannot often recreate what happened 5 minutes earlier by calling 911, and even if you can, it's still your word versus other people.

Hopefully the video would record the jerks actions, and your telling him to back off.

Tejicano · December 9, 2013, 09:14 PM

I would be holding up my phone taking a video of the golfer both to have his actions recorded and also in some hope that him seeing that those action are being recorded might give him reason to re-think those actions.

I would also have my HK USP45 out on the seat next to me - which is legal in New Mexico with - or without - a carry permit. If him seeing that he is being video taped and seeing my pistol do not deter his actions, once he has breached my side window I would need to act to protect my family. The tactics taken are dynamic and depend on how the situation unfolds from there.

Crankgrinder · December 9, 2013, 11:52 PM

My wife and then 3 year old kid were in a similar situation a few years back. We were followed, chased and nearly ran into by the perps ( man and a woman). I began to dial the phone when they gave up their pursuit. Most people wielding clubs or bats usually smash the windshield on somebody first. I had at that point years ago made up my mind that if he had done that he would be shot.

Ricklin · December 9, 2013, 11:54 PM

Perhaps send your scenario to Tiger Woods. I hear he is pretty expert on cars and golf clubs.

And yes an iron would be preferable to a wood.

To answer the question, once the passenger compartment has been breached, my own and my passengers lives are in danger, and I will act accordingly.

dakota.potts · December 10, 2013, 12:30 AM

I would feel the necessity to defend myself when the perpetrator had demonstrated the opportunity, ability, and intent to do so.

Screaming that he's going to bash my head in is intent. The golf club is the ability. So opportunity must be when he has reached the car with the golf club.

I believe you can justify deadly force in my state when met with fear of death or great bodily harm or to stop the commission of a forcible felony. You can use force (not deadly) to meet force. In either of these circumstances, in my state, you are permitted to draw a weapon.

Waving a golf club and threatening to use it is assault, if not assault with a deadly weapon. My personal firearm would probably be drawn from its location near me (check your state laws to see if it is legal to keep there) and held in my right hand while I went for the phone. If he remained at a distance, I would use the phone. If he got closer but didn't attack I would use the phone but level the gun and make it clear of my intent to protect myself. At the start of the attack would be when I felt necessary to shoot.

Of course, this is all hypothetical and perfect world scenarios. Who knows if you have time to call the police before your windshield is busted? Maybe it happens in seconds, you raise your gun, and the guy gets back in his car and speeds off before you can even dial. There are a lot of variables.

sDot · December 10, 2013, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Wright

sDot said:

In Tennessee, that is likely to get you in deep trouble, moreso even than if you were to shoot the perpetrator.

You are guilty of carrying an illegal weapon with intent to go armed. With a permit, you have a "handgun carry permit." This has been adjudged to not extend to knives, brass knucks, billy clubs, baseball bats and the like. Maximum knife blade length is, I believe 1 3/4" or so. And there is a distinction made between home and auto.

Bob Wright

It's always in my truck, not as a weapon, but as a tool. I actually do most of my weed whacking and tree trimming with my machete, but if I am being attacked anything on hand becomes a weapon. Even a golf club becomes a weapon when used as one.

Gaerek · December 10, 2013, 10:53 AM

Quote:

I would be holding up my phone taking a video of the golfer both to have his actions recorded and also in some hope that him seeing that those action are being recorded might give him reason to re-think those actions.

I like the idea of gathering evidence, but it takes time to get the phone into record mode. Even my iphone that makes it real easy to get to the phone/video app will still take a couple seconds. In addition to taking one of my hands out of play, I'll also be wanting to call 911 too. I'd rather just dial 911, place it on speaker and put my phone on the seat or dash.

But it's scenarios like this that have been making me consider putting a GoPro on my dash and just keep it running in a loop mode. If anything like this happens, I'll have audio and video evidence. You're starting to see more and more motorcycle riders with GoPro's on their helmets or mounted to their bikes. Some would say the reason is for show off videos on youtube, but my buddy told me the main reason he does it is for evidence. Seems like something like this on the dash would be a fairly inexpensive investment that could be very valuable in court, if needed.

But to answer the original question. As soon as the guy exited his vehicle with a weapon, I'd be dialing 911 or having a passenger do it. As soon as he showed violent intent (breaking a headlight) I'd draw. I would not shoot unless I was in imminent danger, but I would certainly let him be aware of the presence of my firearm before he did something foolish.

serf 'rett · December 10, 2013, 12:05 PM

This possible situation is the primary reason I will always try to leave at least 1/2 or more of a car length between my vehicle and the one in front. Room to maneuver gives an additional option when he gets out of his car. It may be possible to get inside his OODA loop by unexpected action on my part. Moving the vehicle will be quicker than trying to dial 911. Moving the vehicle may transfer some initiative from him to me.

In the OP scenario: Intent is expressed by his words and actions. The club gives him the Ability to inflict harm. The Opportunity exists because you are blocked, in with no retreat.

In my opinion that Opportunity starts when he gets out of his vehicle with a weapon, not necessarily when he reaches your vehicle. You are behind the curve if you’re waiting for him to reach your vehicle before taking action. He needs to see you doing something before he reaches your vehicle. When he reaches your vehicle, I think he should see “GUN!” When he comes within club distance, he should see GUN pointed at him. If he’s truly stupid…

Garycw · December 10, 2013, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarryLee

I once had a gentleman approach me in traffic and although he had no golf club he did make his dissatisfaction with me very clear. I basically sat in my car and ignored him until he approached my car and began to strike the window with his hands and elbow. At this point I simply showed him a small .38 and he reconsidered his previous course of action and returned to his car.

I never pointed the gun at him and was a long way from feeling the need to take any other action. However, I felt it best to let him know what awaited him if he did gain entry to my vehicle. I guess the point is sometimes simply letting the other person know you are prepared to defend yourself might be enough to defuse the situation.

It's hard to say what your reaction may be at the time and the particular situation and circumstances in general. Luckily he wasn't a crazed meth head and return with a .45 or worse. Glad it worked out.

motorcityhitman · December 10, 2013, 02:20 PM

I am actually from a Detroit suburb. I gladly moved out of that cesspool more then 40 years ago.I have been using that nickname on the internet since around 1993 and this is the first time assassin was mentioned,which I find funny.

I don't know where the Christmas story came from,leftfield I guess.

This was just a scenario I thought of,no better or no worse then others on here

December 9, 2013, 05:38 PM	#5
DT Guy Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2001 Posts: 984	As an LEO, I was once approached by a man across a parking lot who obviously wanted to speak to me. While he was still 70+ feet away, another man exited a car behind him carrying a golf club, walked rapidly behind the first man and lifted the club to swing at his head. While I (thankfully) did not have to shoot him, it forever revised my conception of shooting 'well enough', I have to say. And a man within arms reach of me swinging a club destroying property would have my undivided attention, since the time between when he cocks his arm back and when he aims and swings at my head might be a very, very short interval. Larry __________________ He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast. Government, Anarchy and Chaos

December 9, 2013, 05:50 PM	#6
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,779	I am really surprised you did not come up with any results for how to deal with Happy Gilmore. I am guessing I would be spraying my favorite chemical agent his way after swing number one and then sicking Bob Barker on him. After that I would have to see. __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

December 9, 2013, 06:48 PM	#13
BarryLee Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2010 Location: The ATL (OTP) Posts: 3,965	I once had a gentleman approach me in traffic and although he had no golf club he did make his dissatisfaction with me very clear. I basically sat in my car and ignored him until he approached my car and began to strike the window with his hands and elbow. At this point I simply showed him a small .38 and he reconsidered his previous course of action and returned to his car. I never pointed the gun at him and was a long way from feeling the need to take any other action. However, I felt it best to let him know what awaited him if he did gain entry to my vehicle. I guess the point is sometimes simply letting the other person know you are prepared to defend yourself might be enough to defuse the situation. __________________ A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

December 9, 2013, 11:54 PM	#19
Ricklin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: SW Washington state Posts: 2,393	Tiger!! Perhaps send your scenario to Tiger Woods. I hear he is pretty expert on cars and golf clubs. And yes an iron would be preferable to a wood. To answer the question, once the passenger compartment has been breached, my own and my passengers lives are in danger, and I will act accordingly. __________________ ricklin Freedom is not free

December 10, 2013, 12:05 PM	#23
serf 'rett Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2009 Location: Stuttgart, AR Posts: 1,569	This possible situation is the primary reason I will always try to leave at least 1/2 or more of a car length between my vehicle and the one in front. Room to maneuver gives an additional option when he gets out of his car. It may be possible to get inside his OODA loop by unexpected action on my part. Moving the vehicle will be quicker than trying to dial 911. Moving the vehicle may transfer some initiative from him to me. In the OP scenario: Intent is expressed by his words and actions. The club gives him the Ability to inflict harm. The Opportunity exists because you are blocked, in with no retreat. In my opinion that Opportunity starts when he gets out of his vehicle with a weapon, not necessarily when he reaches your vehicle. You are behind the curve if you’re waiting for him to reach your vehicle before taking action. He needs to see you doing something before he reaches your vehicle. When he reaches your vehicle, I think he should see “GUN!” When he comes within club distance, he should see GUN pointed at him. If he’s truly stupid… Last edited by serf 'rett; December 10, 2013 at 01:54 PM.

December 9, 2013, 04:46 PM	#1
motorcityhitman Junior Member Join Date: September 17, 2013 Posts: 2	Road Rage-Golf Club Scenario I searched through scenarios but didn't come up with one like this one. If I did miss one I am sorry. Okay,here goes.. You're driving along in bumper to bumper traffic.Traffic speeds up and separates and some person cuts right in front of you.Traffic comes to a complete stop and the guy in front of you jumps out of his car with a 2 wood golf club in hand screaming that he is going to cave your head in for some imagined disrespect. As he pass's he: #1-Takes out your headlight still screaming #2-Puts a good sized dent in your hood..still screaming about caving your head in. #3-Rears back and puts club through windshield getting bits of glass all over your wife and yourself..screaming. #4-Rears back again to take out side window to get to you..screaming obscenities.. You are blocked in by other cars so there is no escape and evading.At which point would you feel justified in pulling your handgun and using it then a short explanation on how you chose and why. Thank you in advance for your answers. I have posted this on other forums so you're seeing not double.

December 9, 2013, 04:58 PM	#2
zincwarrior Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2011 Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex Posts: 2,261	Well considering I'd be laughing right up until he swung it I'd say after #1. He's now exhibited he is a threat and a significant level of derangement with a lethal weapon.

December 9, 2013, 05:13 PM	#3
southjk Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2012 Location: Memphis Posts: 468	As soon as he got out with the golf club, I'd be on the phone dialing 911. I would feel protected from the golf club by my locked vehicle and not feel that my life was in any jeopardy. As soon as he went for the window, that is when I would imagine I'd start to feel threatened. That broken window exposes me and my passengers to the potentially lethal strikes of the golf club and I would use whatever tools I had at hand to stop him. Although, with my vehicle, I might attempt to ram his car forward enough for me to get around him. I'd much rather cause a little property damage rather then killing anyone.

December 9, 2013, 05:15 PM	#4
sDot Member Join Date: October 10, 2012 Posts: 19	I would probably go for my machete in the back first for more of a dramatic approach, even deranged psychos with golf clubs know machetes are not fun to be taught a lesson with.

December 9, 2013, 06:12 PM	#7
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	A golf club is a deadly weapon just as much as a blade or a firearm. I would consider anyone approaching me, issuing threats and swinging a golf club to be an imminent deadly threat and react accordingly.

December 9, 2013, 06:15 PM	#8
357 Python Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2007 Location: Charlottesville, VA Posts: 941	Let's just say that "Happy Gilmore" would change his name to "Unhappy Gilmore" when the window was broken out.

December 9, 2013, 06:30 PM	#9
Water-Man Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 2,126	Is the OP writing a Christmas story?

December 9, 2013, 06:38 PM	#12
madmo44mag Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: Ft.Worth, Texas Posts: 1,522	Once he exited the vehicle with a weapon I would be on the phone to 911. Once I had 911 on the phone I would lay the phone on the dash on speaker phone and prepare to do what ever needed being done. This way the 911 operator could hear what is transpiring and any warning I my give that he is about to be sent to the great driving range in the sky.

December 9, 2013, 08:14 PM	#15
dayman Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2011 Location: The Woods Posts: 1,197	I'd probably draw discretely when he headed my way with the golf club. However, a golf club is only dangerous when the guy can actually hit you with it, so I would only shoot if/when the car was breached. There are moral reasons. But, I try not to discuss morals on the interweb. There are fiscal reasons. Since I drive a relatively new car on icy roads, I have insurance. So, the most money bashing my car up could possibly cost me is $500, and it seems likely that shooting someone would wind up being considerably more expensive than that. Finally there are "situational" (maybe even "tactical"?) reasons. In the given scenario traffic is packed so tightly that I can't get away. If that's the case, cars are certainly too close to start shooting unless it's absolutely necessary. Granted I only carry a woefully underpowered little 9mm, so it's probably just going to bounce off the car doors like a rubber ball , but shooting into standstill traffic still seems like a great way to shoot an innocent. If it came down to shooting or seeing my wife/kids hurt I'm pretty sure I'd shoot, but fortunately, with him outside and me inside at least I'd have some time to think. This actually seems like one of those rare situations where a can of mace would be more useful than a gun.

December 9, 2013, 08:57 PM	#16
leadcounsel Junior member Join Date: September 8, 2005 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 2,119	Yelling clear instructions at the assailant like, BACK OFF NOW! Maybe honking your horn to draw witnesses attention - more witnesses the better. You can't defend yourself with a gun until you feel threatened with imminent serious harm or death. I think that happens as he's trying to bust into your passenger compartment. Situations like this are why I'm about to install my own front and rear cameras on my vehicle. I have the cameras, just need to put them in. They are very affordable and record into a HD card, have their own batteries and plug into the cig-liter. Could really save your butt in a self-defense road rage situation like this. Documenting the other crazy guy's behavior and ultimately the assault better than any other evidence including 911 calls and witnesses (all are going to be biased). You cannot often recreate what happened 5 minutes earlier by calling 911, and even if you can, it's still your word versus other people. Hopefully the video would record the jerks actions, and your telling him to back off.

December 9, 2013, 09:14 PM	#17
Tejicano Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2013 Posts: 168	I would be holding up my phone taking a video of the golfer both to have his actions recorded and also in some hope that him seeing that those action are being recorded might give him reason to re-think those actions. I would also have my HK USP45 out on the seat next to me - which is legal in New Mexico with - or without - a carry permit. If him seeing that he is being video taped and seeing my pistol do not deter his actions, once he has breached my side window I would need to act to protect my family. The tactics taken are dynamic and depend on how the situation unfolds from there.

December 9, 2013, 11:52 PM	#18
Crankgrinder Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 917	My wife and then 3 year old kid were in a similar situation a few years back. We were followed, chased and nearly ran into by the perps ( man and a woman). I began to dial the phone when they gave up their pursuit. Most people wielding clubs or bats usually smash the windshield on somebody first. I had at that point years ago made up my mind that if he had done that he would be shot.

December 10, 2013, 12:30 AM	#20
dakota.potts Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2013 Location: Keystone Heights, Florida Posts: 3,084	I would feel the necessity to defend myself when the perpetrator had demonstrated the opportunity, ability, and intent to do so. Screaming that he's going to bash my head in is intent. The golf club is the ability. So opportunity must be when he has reached the car with the golf club. I believe you can justify deadly force in my state when met with fear of death or great bodily harm or to stop the commission of a forcible felony. You can use force (not deadly) to meet force. In either of these circumstances, in my state, you are permitted to draw a weapon. Waving a golf club and threatening to use it is assault, if not assault with a deadly weapon. My personal firearm would probably be drawn from its location near me (check your state laws to see if it is legal to keep there) and held in my right hand while I went for the phone. If he remained at a distance, I would use the phone. If he got closer but didn't attack I would use the phone but level the gun and make it clear of my intent to protect myself. At the start of the attack would be when I felt necessary to shoot. Of course, this is all hypothetical and perfect world scenarios. Who knows if you have time to call the police before your windshield is busted? Maybe it happens in seconds, you raise your gun, and the guy gets back in his car and speeds off before you can even dial. There are a lot of variables.

December 10, 2013, 02:20 PM	#25
motorcityhitman Junior Member Join Date: September 17, 2013 Posts: 2	Not Home Town Assassin,Sorry I am actually from a Detroit suburb. I gladly moved out of that cesspool more then 40 years ago.I have been using that nickname on the internet since around 1993 and this is the first time assassin was mentioned,which I find funny. I don't know where the Christmas story came from,leftfield I guess.This was just a scenario I thought of,no better or no worse then others on here