Texas open rifle carry protest

[armoredman]

http://intellihub.com/2013/06/04/hun...take-it-march/

In a nutshell, these guys marched with lawfully carried rifles to protest that Temple PD illegally arrested a man out hiking with his son, jailed him and confiscated his firearms without receipt. There is an attached video of the march that I did not watch, but apparently it went off without a hitch.
The controversy was on FaceBook posts on the posted link. I will repost them here, redacting names, and would like your take on the exchange, if you don't mind.

A ) That's really stupid idea

a. some one opposed to the 2nd Amendment could fire a round and we'd get a black ye or worse.

b.why let them know you have guns?

B )This time I have to respectfully disagree - they were doing absolutely nothing illegal, and not one word from the organizers said , "Make sure they're loaded", as the writer put in his title. Unlike the loser who was planning the armed DC march, these citizens obeyed the law, were instructed on the law by the organizers, and the march came off a perfect success.
Yes, a plant could have fired a round to make everyone look bad, or an idiot who ignored the restrictions could have done so...just like they could at any shooting range, or in any hunting party, (where the weapons are definitely loaded), and by and large, they don't.
We have to trust our fellow citizens, and that was what this peaceful, successful march was there to prove

C ) Here in Texas, we have the easiest CHL available. We are a MUST issue state. Hey, we're Texas. We do not have open carry. We don't need open carry. If you don't have a criminal or mental history, your CHL will be in the mail in just a few weeks.
Stay concealed and be able to be the "surprise" if you are justified. Open carry is for wannabes and posers. This IS Texas, but really not the wild west.

B ) Sir, Arizona has had lawful open carry for over 100 years, and it works just fine. I had to open carry in Arizona until we got our CCW law in 1994, and found myself to neither be a poser or wanna be while doing so, but someone utilizing a method to lawfully carry a firearm, one that didn't involve getting nanny government's permission. Arizona has further recognized the right to carry a defensive tool by going to Constitutional Carry which requires no permit to carry either openly or concealed, which was enacted in 2010 with no noted negative consequences. I personally believe this IS the best approach, as a Constitutional Right should need no government permission slip to engage in, other wise it is a mere privilege. I regret that I find your disparaging attack on lawful open carriers is neither warranted nor accurate, based on real world experience.

C ) Still illegal in Texas and I hope it stays that way. Even as police officers we only carry open if in uniform.
One more great reason to live in Texas

B ) Then I wish you the best, sir, and respectfully request you stay and continue your efforts to protect the citizens of the Great State of Texas, because we have no need of that type of "government knows best" thinking out here. Please remain safe, and may you reach retirement without incident.

C ) Thank you.

Kinda obvious I am "B". Both A and C are sworn law enforcement officers, C in Texas, A elsewhere. I am NOT trying to push open carry on anyone, nor trying to restart that debate, (although is probably will...), I just thought the exchange was interesting in the attitudes displayed by these two officers.

Thoughts?

[arch308]

I have to agree with you on the march. I wish I had known about it beforehand. I might have been able to participate. It was perfectly legal.

Not really sure where I stand on OC. I do believe in Constitutional Carry as my point being you shouldn't need a permit to excerise a right. It does then become a privilage. But you know we also must get a permit for large gatherings/demonstrations. Hmmmm.

[buffalo]

Good to see that march went good. I just do not understand why people have such a issue with open carry,like mentioned AZ has had it forever and there arent any problems. I had my CCW in AZ before they passed the law not requiring it but open carried probably 50% of the time and NEVER had a issue with anyone including cops,they just flat out dont care if you have a gun because nothing ever happens. You can walk into a Fry's in Phoenix and see guys with wheel guns on thier hips and nobody even looks twice,the laws here in FL are pretty good but i took for granted how good i had it in AZ,probably why were moving back as soon as we can.

[twins]

That is why there are 50 states (and several US territories) you can choose to live in. If one state doesn't fit your life culture, you have the freedom to move to another state that does. The OP lives in Arizona, the LEOs live in Texas....why does one feel they should agree on anything?

[zincwarrior]

If they were legal and the rifles weren't loaded I'm fine with it (if they were slung).

Loaded rifles however smacks of intimidation. Thats jail time in my view.

[wayneinFL]

If they were legal and the rifles weren't loaded I'm fine with it (if they were slung).

Loaded rifles however smacks of intimidation. Thats jail time in my view.

Some people feel a loaded handgun smacks of intimidation. Should this be illegal, too?

That is why there are 50 states (and several US territories) you can choose to live in. If one state doesn't fit your life culture, you have the freedom to move to another state that does. The OP lives in Arizona, the LEOs live in Texas....why does one feel they should agree on anything?

Because it's just not that easy to uproot and go live somewhere else, cut ties with family, change jobs, etc. This is why there are still gun owners left in NJ. Besides, I am an American, and I travel quite a bit for work. Why should my constitutional rights be restricted when I cross a state line?

[zincwarrior]

Quote:
If they were legal and the rifles weren't loaded I'm fine with it (if they were slung).

Loaded rifles however smacks of intimidation. Thats jail time in my view.
Some people feel a loaded handgun smacks of intimidation. Should this be illegal, too?

In Texas if you march with a loaded handgun in open view it is highly illegal, so the answer is yes.

Because it's just not that easy to uproot and go live somewhere else, cut ties with family, change jobs, etc. This is why there are still gun owners left in NJ. Besides, I am an American, and I travel quite a bit for work. Why should my constitutional rights be restricted when I cross a state line?

Wait, you’re a Yankee? You are aware of the antiYankee checkpoints at the state border aren’t you?

[gaseousclay]

If they were legal and the rifles weren't loaded I'm fine with it (if they were slung).

Loaded rifles however smacks of intimidation. Thats jail time in my view.

Agreed. A loaded weapon in public is a huge no-no IMO. I only say this because to the majority of non-gun owning citizens this could be viewed as intimidation. I guess I just don't get the open carry culture. Why draw attention to yourself?

[wayneinFL]

Wait, you’re a Yankee? You are aware of the antiYankee checkpoints at the state border aren’t you?

I've never been to NJ, but if I had to guess, 90% of Port St. Lucie residents originated there. And I hear the gun laws there are absolutely ridiculous. And in places like Camden, they're largely ignored.

But back on the topic, are you saying carrying a weapon is intimidating, just because it is illegal? So, if made it legal, you would be okay- it wouldn't be intimidating? Or do you feel there's something inherently malicious about open carry?

See, I live in a state where open carry is illegal also, and I wouldn't do it even if it were legal. But I've heard of people being "made" while CCWing in public, and when they're made by someone from NJ or NYC, it often ends in an arrest for OC, when someone isn't really doing anything wrong to begin with. I know- you're innocent until proven guilty, and you can fight it in court, but the last person I knew charged with a bogus weapons offense spent $7500 proving his innocence.

It would be better if open carry was legal, at least with a permit. And seeing as how there are a million permit holders in this state, I wouldn't feel "intimidated", because I already know there are probably a dozen people walking around the mall or Wal-mart with guns anyway. Why would it matter that I can see one of them?

[zincwarrior]

I've never been to NJ, but if I had to guess, 90% of Port St. Lucie residents originated there. And I hear the gun laws there are absolutely ridiculous. And in places like Camden, they're largely ignored.

So you’re not a Yankee? (puts rope and hunting dogs away)

But back on the topic, are you saying carrying a weapon is intimidating, just because it is illegal?

I’m saying:
1) carrying a pistol OC style is illegal in Texas, barring certain conditions.
2) I’m saying carrying LOADED rifles in Tex on a protest is intimidating. In Texas we used to call those Klan rallies. A couple of hunters (or kids, like when I grew up) in the field with a long guns is fine. 20 dudes marching down the street with loaded rifles-call up Zombie Grant as Johnnie Reb is on the loose again…

So, if made it legal, you would be okay- it wouldn't be intimidating? Or do you feel there's something inherently malicious about open carry?

See above.

See, I live in a state where open carry is illegal also, and I wouldn't do it even if it were legal. But I've heard of people being "made" while CCWing in public, and when they're made by someone from NJ or NYC, it often ends in an arrest for OC, when someone isn't really doing anything wrong to begin with. I know- you're innocent until proven guilty, and you can fight it in court, but the last person I knew charged with a bogus weapons offense spent $7500 proving his innocence.

None of that is relevant to OC protest with loaded long guns.

It would be better if open carry was legal, at least with a permit. And seeing as how there are a million permit holders in this state, I wouldn't feel "intimidated", because I already know there are probably a dozen people walking around the mall or Wal-mart with guns anyway. Why would it matter that I can see one of them?

None of that is relevant to OC protest with loaded long guns.

[lcpiper]

Agreed. A loaded weapon in public is a huge no-no IMO. I only say this because to the majority of non-gun owning citizens this could be viewed as intimidation. I guess I just don't get the open carry culture. Why draw attention to yourself?

I disagree. It is a protest and therefor a challenge, but the challenge is directly related to the protest, ie.. they are carrying because a guy was arrested for carrying and they are daring LE to do it again. If they declare their purpose is a peaceful protest and do not act in an intimidating manner, then this is not an intimidating action despite the challenging nature of the protest.

Texas Law also does not explicitly prohibit carrying a rifle as long as you are not doing so in a manner that would cause alarm. If the purpose of the march is sufficiently advertised both to LE, Government, and the populace then there would be no reason for a person who witnesses the march to be alarmed.

(Of course, a really shrewd operator would have a quiet talk with the local judge beforehand and make sure there was a very good understanding between them.)

[wayneinFL]

Okay, I see your point- specifically addressing the context of the protest.

I was thinking more along the lines of the comments in the OP.

[zincwarrior]

If the New Black Panthers decide to march through your neighborhood with loaded AKs but declare that their intent is peaceful, then you're not intimidated right?

Better to march in protest. Ok to march with rifles slung if the purpose is specific to that protest.

Marching with armed rifles is intimidation. Else you wouldn't do it in the first place.

[Dr Big Bird PhD]

I agree with everything you said Armored man. Please be mindful that the Texan who was arguing against OC was a LEO and not a civilian...

And to be honest I don't have a problem with loaded long guns, only in the manner they are handled. If you wanted to carry your M1A with a loaded 10 rounder in there, slung across your shoulder... that's fine. If you're waving that same rifle around aiming it while unloaded, then that's bad. IMO it has nothing to do with it being loaded, or perceived to be loaded.

I know sheeple feel differently though.

[noelf2]

Marching with armed rifles is intimidation. Else you wouldn't do it in the first place.

What exactly would you consider police offers arresting someone for legal behavior that they don't happen to agree with? Would that be "intimidation"??

What is the point of carrying ANY gun that is unloaded (concealed or open)? A good walking stick is more dangerous that an unloaded gun.

[lcpiper]

Did you see it the same way when the boy in Logan, WV. was expelled from school and arrested for wearing his NRA T-Shirt to school on the day that Congress was voting on the latest Federal Gun Control bill?

Do you recall the following Monday when not only he but other kids as well came to school wearing the same NRA shirts?

They were protesting his expulsion and arrest the previous week.
Weren't they defiant? Were they not daring the school administration to act?

I do not see a difference here, and if they do it right then they are breaking no laws. If they do it wrong then they are.

I would put your Black Panther's March in the "wrong way" category, as you describe it, but it doesn't mean there isn't a right way to do this either.

Do you believe there is a right way to get'r done as well as a wrong way?

[armoredman]

We had a local man show up to a visit by Dear Leader in Phoenix with a loaded AR-15 slung across his back. Other than being restricted to the "free speech zone" MANY hundreds of yards away from any government official, he was merely watched, not hassled, as open carry has been enshrined here for over 100 years of ALL firearm types. Was it smart? Well, to him it was. I might go a different route. The leftists used a VERY tightly cropped picture of him to "prove" how racist we are here in AZ...cropped tightly so as not to show that the rifle carrier was black...
I can't differentiate between loaded and unloaded without inspecting the firearm, ala the old California checks of some years ago, before activists pushed them the wrong way. BUT, Cali is NOT Texas, (thank the Good Lord, we'd start to feel a little squeezed here, what with Colorado going goofy right above us), so if they have the right to carry them, then they have the right to carry them loaded. Nobody should be cited for "panic" if carrying a firearm in a peaceful manner, any more than anyone should be cited for panic for carrying a five gallon gas can as needed, or carrying any other legal and lawful product where allowed...though I'm certain if a bunch of people showed up in the Texas capital with running chainsaws there would be some "consternation"...

BTW, for the point of clarity, C is a Texas LEO, A is a Michigan LEO.

[zincwarrior]

Do you believe there is a right way to get'r done as well as a wrong way?

Sure. Carry signs and protest in front of the police station and tv station.

[twins]

Why should my constitutional rights be restricted when I cross a state line?

You should watch the PBS show call "Constitution USA". Not everyone in America agrees on the "true" meaning of the Bill of Rights. As the host travel the US, there are different views on what constitute constitutional "rights" in different areas and times. The episode on the 2nd Amendment was very interesting.

There are gun owners who believe the federal government should stay away from any gun control legislation. But they get frustrated if another person in another area (ie, state/county/city) doesn't share the same view as them. Go figure!

[armoredman]

Very true, twins, which is why SCOTUS is the final arbiter...even though that wasn't clarified until the very early 1800's that SCOTUS really COULD "clarify" the Constitution. The attitude you refer to is also highlighted by the national ACLU official position on the 2A is the Militia, and they state on their website that SCOTUS "got it wrong".

[wayneinFL]

You should watch the PBS show call "Constitution USA". Not everyone in America agrees on the "true" meaning of the Bill of Rights. As the host travel the US, there are different views on what constitute constitutional "rights" in different areas and times. The episode on the 2nd Amendment was very interesting.

There are gun owners who believe the federal government should stay away from any gun control legislation. But they get frustrated if another person in another area (ie, state/county/city) doesn't share the same view as them. Go figure!

I understand there are different interpretations. The people who signed them had different interpretations as well. Of course, at the time it was common for the general militia to muster in public, so I don't see where it would have possibly been outside the realm of the imagination for someone to openly carry a loaded pistol.

As far as the state's rights issue, there are certain rights that should be incorporated and the states should have to respect. For example, the state can't allow a business to deny service to blacks. Just like the right of association, freedom of speech, and freedom of religion, the right to keep and bear arms should be protected from both state and federal governments.

If some states don't want it, they should move to have it repealed.

[P5 Guy]

Loaded rifles however smacks of intimidation.

I do agree with that statement. Maybe not loaded and locked?

Thats jail time in my view.

While technically/legally true. I have to say that is not my view.

Maybe no one will see my view, but sometimes intimidation is warranted, after all how long have firearms owners been intimidated by the media and government? All political and government power come from the barrel of a gun. One can be persuaded with logic or coercion. Coercion is usually some type of intimidating force.
These are just my opinions.

[armoredman]

As far as the state's rights issue, there are certain rights that should be incorporated and the states should have to respect.

wayne, that's been done, MacDonald vs Chicago, the 2A was held incorporated against the several states. Legal challenges are flying at the paces of arthritic snails in many jurisdictions, and being shortstopped as fast as they can be activist judges.

Loaded rifles however smacks of intimidation. Thats jail time in my view.

Why should someone go to jail for doing something completely and totally legal? Most if not all the legal definitions of firearms do not differentiate whether it's loaded or unloaded, but that it is still a firearm. If the locale has rules in place that prevent the carry of loaded firearms, but allow carry of unloaded firearms, then I could see the point, even if the rule has no basis in law IMHO. Also, the local gendarme were reportedly completely informed of the march, and would have told them whether loaded/unloaded was OK, if the marchers didn't have access to the latest laws on the books already - PD cannot make laws up on the fly, as much as some have in the past, (New Orleans, anyone?), and have to respect the laws on the books, unless they have powerful patrons,( NYPD "stop and frisk, anyone?), according to theory.
If they had approved the march, then arrested marchers for illegal carry, then many ugly legal issues could be raised, such as they are already facing in the arrest that sparked the whole thing.

[Skans]

I can think of a lot of ways Open Carry can purposely be used for intimidate folks; here are just a few:

1. Guy with two nickel revolvers strapped to his sides finds some reason to yell or shout at someone else. Normally yelling or shouting (non-threats and nothing obscene) may be rude, but that's about it. However, yelling and shouting while open carrying firearms would be pretty intimidating.

2. A group of 3 "thuggish looking" people open carrying firearms can be used to intimidate businesses, bus riders, park goers, etc. They can smile and act as sweet as pie to folks around them, but you have to acknowledge that there is an intimidation factor, especially if they are wearing racist shirts, tattoos, etc.

3. Are you going to permit open carry of handguns, such as: Carbon-15, Sites Spectre, MP5, UZI pistol....? Or just guns that you think look respectable.

Open carry might work in a culture that is used to open carry. But, try to introduce it in non-open carry areas, and it's an invitation to all sorts of problems, in my opinion.

[mglass61]

1. Guy with two nickel revolvers strapped to his sides finds some reason to yell or shout at someone else. Normally yelling or shouting (non-threats and nothing obscene) may be rude, but that's about it. However, yelling and shouting while open carrying firearms would be pretty intimidating.

If you could prove it was being done on purpose I could see your point. Otherwise, unless they are yelling and waiving the guns around I don't see the issue. Would the guns being concealed really change much in that situation? Yelling and shouting tends to intimidate a lot of surrounding people on its own even without guns. I'm not a fan of blaiming people for how others feel as long as they are being legal.

2. A group of 3 "thuggish looking" people open carrying firearms can be used to intimidate businesses, bus riders, park goers, etc. They can smile and act as sweet as pie to folks around them, but you have to acknowledge that there is an intimidation factor, especially if they are wearing racist shirts, tattoos, etc.

Now this is just profiling and I'm not sure it deserves a response. People shouldn't judge others but if they do then that is their own fault. As long as they are carrying legal then there shouldn't be an issue.

3. Are you going to permit open carry of handguns, such as: Carbon-15, Sites Spectre, MP5, UZI pistol....? Or just guns that you think look respectable.

If legally owned, then sure why not?

Open carry might work in a culture that is used to open carry. But, try to introduce it in non-open carry areas, and it's an invitation to all sorts of problems, in my opinion.

Maybe I'm spoiled but I live in KY where open carry is perfectly legal and requires no permit. Seeing someone open carry here is certainly not the norm but I see it occaisionaly and have never seen anyone freak out or really even stare at the person. Why? It is their right and people here know it. So I have to respectfully disagree that its just a matter of whether or not it depends on the culture. I'd say our culture here is not to open carry (Lexington area) but it happens from time to time. Instead I believe its all about how people are raised. Even though open carry isn't big here almost everyone grows up at least knowing someone with guns and most have shot them. So seeing someone walk down the street with one or in WalMart with one isn't a shocker. People should excercise their rights and not feel ashamed for it if certain groups disagree.

PS. Skans I'm not attacking you just thought I'd jump in with my views to your situations.