The art of rifle defense for bear, up close and personal...

[WildBill45]

http://youtu.be/wZ4-CFpTJbY

I am starting to train for my pending trip to Alaska to so some fishin' and explore a bit. I am not hunting so this training has nothing to do with hunting, longe range shooting, or groups ... although I do all of the above when appropriate. This is up close & Personal shooting that if needed may save your life during a bad encounter with the large predators up there. Such is a rare event, but like on the streets it is the RARE events that we train for!!!

Trouble does find you sometimes: http://www.adn.com/2012/04/30/244595...s-charged.html

[jason41987]

well, obviously youd want something that hit REALLY hard, and could cycle fast... my choice would be a short .45-70 lever action... and you could hunt the animals there with that too so youd only have to carry one rifle...

if im not mistaken, cant you load a .45-70 rifle with .454 casull as well if you wanted even more rounds in it?

[sigcurious]

What area(s) are you going to? Kodiak is particularly unique when it comes to bear population density(and size! kodiak bears are ginormous!)

Either way it's good to be prepared. Don't forget to keep an eye out for moose, they get just as angry as bears. Get plenty of bug repellant and have fun!

[WildBill45]

if im not mistaken, cant you load a .45-70 rifle with .454 casull

I never heard of this even mentioned before.

Use whatever rifle you are confident with is my best advice.

[WildBill45]

Kodiak is particularly unique

I would love to hunt there, but not on this trip ... fishin' only this time.

[Stevie-Ray]

if im not mistaken, cant you load a .45-70 rifle with .454 casull

Seems like there would be an awful lot of unused chamber space, possibly causing inaccuracy, if it would work at all, similar to the T/C Contender in .410/.45 Colt. Maybe I'm wrong.

I'm thinking one of those Ruger carbines in .44 mag would be nice. But I always said in real bear country, I'd opt only for my FAL. How about a SOCOM? Fast-firing high-capacity 7.62 NATO would make me feel a whole lot better about being there.

[WildBill45]

How about a SOCOM? Fast-firing high-capacity 7.62 NATO would make me feel a whole lot better about being there.

At close range you may not get a chance to use that capacity, and one or two .308 may upset the big brownie. This isn't shooting at long range, this is down and dirty inside fighting to stay alive. Back in the early 90s when I was going to South Africa, the two major tribes would fight it out in town, the Zulu tribe would bring a short and a long spear, the other AK-47s', the Zulus' would block the AK with the short one, and kill them with the long one. Firepower doesn't always work if the other side picks the location!

[NWPilgrim]

All I know is that I bought a Ruger Redhawk cut to 4" off a guy who fished up there. After his first close encounter he sold me the .44 Mag so he could get something BIGGER. That was a while a go and the biggest then was the .454 Casull.

My brother who worked and hunted in the wilds up there and had some close encounters with coastal brownies said that a 12 ga. with hard slugs would be his all around choice. He wasn't even confident in his 7mm RM, though he never shot one with it to find out first hand. He just said that in all his years hunting he was not prepared for how huge and strong the coastal brownies are.

One of the best safety measures is to go out with a buddy. Preferably a SLOW buddy. Seriously, more eyes to keep an eye out, you can cover for each other, and if need be, one might make it out to get aid.

[oneoldsap]

I'm thinking a Marlin would probably want to feed 454s two at a time , because of the length difference . If I'm wrong , it won't be the first time , and lord willing , not the last !

[Mobuck]

Big difference in working pressure 45/70 vs 454 Casull. Not saying it wouldn't work but it seriously violates a couple of the rules of firearms use and common sense. I'm much more comfortable with a pump shotgun than a lever rifle. I'd go with a hard slug in a pump shotgun.

[RC20]

For the kind of encounter you are talking about, its a crap shoot.

1. Play dead: Works vast majority of the time with Grizzly (do not do this with a black bear)

2. Bear Spray (try number 1 first, then use 2 only if it keeps chewing on you.

3. There is not gun that will stop an angry or aggressive grizzly. Guides use 375 H&H (or some of the newer variations) but that is a cold shot by a client with a large caliber and the guide shoots (slightly before!) the client.

People have taken down grizzly with 9mm semi auto more often than you wold think (all I know of have been successful, tow or three as I recall).

I would go with the highest capacity 9mm you can find. This gives you plenty of shots to shoot yourself before the bear does you in!

Think I am crazy I know but at the speed a bear moves and the distance you are talking, you will only get a round or two out of anything other than a semi auto.

Shotguns are popular, but items 1 and 2 while not noisy have proven to be more effective. Of course we tend not to go with statistics and go with our fears.

I have yet to see an agreement on shotgun load. The one I liked the best was 4 rounds of )) Buck with a slug. The idea was that you would remove its sensing apparatus and then kill it with the slug. It was a good plan and I was trained in how to execute it (never had to use it but one of the biggest things is to have a plan and stick to it)

I would look at slug results before I loaded up with all slugs. Not much velocity and penetration is the thing that would take a bear down (if lucky, we are talking about taking out a shoulder or hip).

Good luck, still think the best advice is bear spray (that and using your head, backing away, leaving fish behind etc)

[semi_problomatic]

Don't wear anything with metal or plastic so the bear doesn't get anything stuck in his digestive system. You could also spray yourself with bear mace so you taste spicier... Maybe the bear doesn't like spicey food.

[JerryM]

A 12 ga with the best slugs would be the best. It would be lighter, and easier to get follow up shots off than a rifle.

I would also have some bear spray, but there is a limit as to time.

Jerry

[dahermit]

A 12 ga with the best slugs would be the best. It would be lighter, and easier to get follow up shots off than a rifle.

That is what logic indicates to me. 12 gauge slugs in an autoloader. Not a rifle...unless it was an autoloader...but then I would still opt for the shotgun. If you ever needed to protect yourself, the shooting would be very close range, (or "defense" is not the proper word), and the shooting had better be, fast and furious.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

do not shoot 454 Casull in your 45-70... the bullets on the Casull are handgun bullets at .452" & the 45-70 are rifle bullets at .458" you'll get excessive leading, & most likely horrible groups, as well as you could count on every single 454 Casull case rupturing, & bleeding out high pressure gas everywhere, very likely causing damage to the gun & the shooter... ( that is, if they'd fire at all... most likely the tiny 454 rim would slip into the 45-70 chamber too far, causing excessive head space )

I actually built this custom Marlin Lever action on the 44 magnum carbine... pulled the barrel, a couple custom parts & a mag tube, as well as glass bedding everything to make it hold together... what was once a sweet shooting 44 mag, became a 50 A.E. beast... loaded with heavy cast bullets, the full length mag holds like 12 rounds... the 50 A.E. uses the 44 mag bolt, because of it's rebated rim... I'm really suprised there have not been more made, as it was really a pretty easy conversion ( as far as custom guns go )

now I have a stainless guide gun in 45-70 & have some hand loads that I got from a Handloader Magazine artical that were designed for African game hunting ( the author actually killed 2 cape buffalo in one shot, much to the dismay of the guide, the bullet passed clear though the bull in front, & still had enough energy to kill the cow standing behind it ) a little tweaking, & after replacing my sights that kept falling of, I now have a monster little carbine that would be ideal for Kodiak Island

[Strafer Gott]

It might be useful to run a few drills based on the pro hunter license test.
Put a 9 inch paper plate at thirty yards and one at ten. Get two hits in way under two seconds with your stopping rifle. Or just buy four cans of bear spray and call it good.

[WildBill45]

For the kind of encounter you are talking about, its a crap shoot.

That is a fact! I would leave the 9mm at home, as I have seen many injured deer shot by fellow officers with a 9mm, and have trouble taking them down!

[WildBill45]

He just said that in all his years hunting he was not prepared for how huge and strong the coastal brownies are.

Not many of us are prepared, and hope to not find out how strong they actually are! This is why I intend to catch fish quickly to have an offering in case of trouble!!!

It is a good thing they don't do it often or there would be a heck of a lot of missing fishermen/women!!!

[WildBill45]

There are the slugs if carrying a shotgun!!!

http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/blackmagic.html

They work well, I carry them when carrying a scattergun up there. They shoot good, and the rep is good for penetration. I did not do a penetration test myself, yet, but the rep is good on them!

[RC20]

I endorse Bear Spray, its got a good reputation. Not perfect, but nothing short of a 120mm smooth bore round is going to offer that (well maybe 75mm on up but you get the point)

My problem with slugs in a shotgun is that I have yet to read an account of them being used. The link provides a lot of PR yadi, but no hard data. Deer are a totally different story than a grizzly bear. Small animal massive trauma and still they note that they would get away. Hmmm.

Its worth noting that the Surveyor I worked for and his load had a logic to it. Tested no, but it did not require good aim or penetration. I have carried that combo in the field when I had people with me (in an auto loader). We did not have bear spray at the time.

And yes, it should be an auto loader.

It also is situational specifie.

1. Fish on you and a bear comes after you, Not a time to play dead

2. Sudden encounter in the bush no fish, play dead, bear spray and then firearm.

Not many of us are prepared, and hope to not find out how strong they actually are! This is why I intend to catch fish quickly to have an offering in case of trouble!!!

The one thing to keep in mind is not to try to save anything, give it all up and get out. You can get more fish (10th and M in Anchorage will sell you all you need!)

I do have a theory on the 9mm (and I would go with hard cast bullets not the SD rounds). Basically if you shoot enough you begin to affect behavior. Call it a wall of sound. I could be nuts, but while the sampling is small, the two or three incidents with the 9mm point to something there.

Shotgun would also have that affect (and an auto loader better).

While I do not expect it, if I am in the woods in bear country (well that is all around Anchorage and I do carry at times) its the 9mm and bear spray.

Good luck of course.

[RC20]

Read this

http://www.chuckhawks.com/firearms_defense_bears.htm

In general its accurate though guides tend to carry 375 guns (usually H&H).
You are also not likely to get the time for good shot placement or the angle. You take what you can get and hope for the best.

What usually happens is that information is presented then ignored to fit the preconceived models that have been developed.

Me, I take data and deal with accordingly. I may not follow it, but I know I am not and why I am not.

[Alaska444]

Dear RC20,

I would not advise playing dead as the first line of defense for a grizzly bear attack. It is instead an option of last resort that will not work every single time. Playing dead is a good way to end up dead in too many cases.

What works?

More than 4 in a group and avoiding dense brush are the two best avoidance strategies according to a USGS study of Alaska bear attacks over a hundred years published a couple of years ago.

The dispute is over firearms vs bear pepper spray. You must be very careful how you interpret the bear spray vs firearms issue since the data is far from complete. I don't believe that we have enough evidence to definitely state which is better. Both are recommend in bear country and many carry both.

Depending on only one line of defense is not advisable.

Playing dead has worked, but if you read some of the books by James Gary Shelton, he chronicles many times when playing dead did not work as well as all of the times people suffered serious injuries. Playing dead is a strategy of last resort.

One note, an childhood friend of mine, Mike Moerlein fought off a grizzly with walking stick and a sling shot. Larry Kaniut wrote about his encounter and how he saved his friends life at the age of 14. Mike used what he had at his disposal and it worked.

http://books.google.com/books?id=HHH...page&q&f=false

One last tactic is to simply stand your ground and don't run. If it is a bluff charge, that is the best tactic. I hope I never have to put that advice into practice. Playing dead has worked and can work, but many have died using this strategy as well.

When it comes to bears, there is not a single perfect tactic.

[Salmoneye]

Rem 7400 .30-06 Carbine with 220 grain round nose...

[dayman]

I have a buddy in the CG that was stationed up on or near Kodiak, and he said what worked for him was to carry around a bunch of M80s.
If a Bear came to investigate he would just walk away calmly, and throw one back over his shoulder every few seconds. The downside was he had to always be smoking, so he'd have something to light the fuse with.
Probably not going to work if it's already charging, but it might make you less fun to investigate.

[WildBill45]

Both are recommend in bear country and many carry both.

We carry both, as my son who has lived in Alaska so long he now has that Alaskan casual attitude about it, whilst I have that cop worst scenario attitude; so he carries the bear spray and leaves the heavy .458 Lott to me to carry!