Japanese suicides top 30,000 -- again

[jimpeel]

This from Japan Today.

Once again, Japanese suicides exceed 30,000 for the fourteenth year in a row. This from the country which has some of the most stringent firearms laws on the face of the earth. They have 126,000,000 people, about 2/5 that of the United States, yet their suicide rate matches ours.

In the meantime the United states suicide rate, with our "easy access to firearms" remains at around 33,000 of which 15,000 are through the use of a firearm. This in a country of 300,000,000 with nearly 100,000,000 firearms.

The disparity is shocking and has been a thorn in the side of the anti-firearms agendists who claim that fewer firearms will mean fewer suicides. The Japanese simply use less effective, but still efficient, means to accomplish their goal.

Recently, there has been a spate of suicides by people using common household chemicals mixed together in a toxic brew which creates hydrogen sulfide. Sitting in an automobile with the windows closed seems to be a favored method. They even post a note on the windshield warning those who approach that there are deadly fumes and to call the authorities.

Fewer firearms does not mean fewer suicides and the antis will not admit this even though they know it to be true. This while touting Japan as the model for gun control.

SOURCE

No. of suicides surpasses 30,000 for 14th year in a row in 2011

National Jan. 11, 2012 - 07:00AM JST ( 19 )

TOKYO —

The National Police Agency said Tuesday that the number of suicides in Japan in 2011 surpassed 30,000 for the 14th year in a row.

Last year, 30,513 people took their own lives, which was 1,177 fewer than in 2010. Of the total, 20,867 were men and 9,646 were women, the NPA said.

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[Onward Allusion]

Based on your numbers, the Japanese suicide rate is more than twice that of the USA. Japan = 24 per 100,000 versus US = 11 per 100,000.

Goes back to the old adage of "guns don't kill...". If some sicko wants to off themselves or others, they will find a way - gun or no gun.

BTW, Japan is mostly a godless society and I don't say that in a derogatory way. Something like 85% of Japanese people profess no personal religion. Sometimes having a faith pulls people through tough times. When there is none...well...

[hardworker]

Correlation does not imply causation. This is a logical fallacy both sides of the gun debate are guilty of using.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Let's not go there. Discussion of this rate as a counter to guns cause suicide mantra is ok but beliefs start flame wars.

Thanks.

[Rembrandt]

Oriental cultures place a high value on living a life of honor and not shaming ones family name, the belief it is better to die an honorable death rather than live in shame is probably why the higher suicide numbers......false premise thinking there is a story with connections to firearms.

[shootniron]

Rembrandt


false premise thinking there is a story with connections to firearms

It is not a false premise as he is addressing the tenant that if guns are not readily accessible, determined people will not seek out other means.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Rembrandt

Oriental cultures place a high value on living a life of honor and not shaming ones family name, the belief it is better to die an honorable death rather than live in shame is probably why the higher suicide numbers......false premise thinking there is a story with connections to firearms.

There is no false premise. The anti-gun movement tries to tell the world that IF the United States had fewer firearms, the United States would see fewer suicides because people would not be able to shoot themselves. The data from Japan simply demonstrate that people who want to kill themselves will find a way to kill themselves, and that if firearms are not available they'll use something else.

And Onward Allusion is correct == 30,000 vs 33,000 are not "rates," they are total numbers. As noted, the rate for Japan is 24 per 100,000 population, compared with a rate of 11 per 100,000 for the United States. Japan's rate does not "match" that of the United States, it is more than double.

[SIGSHR]

From what little I know of Japanese culture suicide is considered quite acceptable and even noble-cf the Kamikaze pilots.

[shortwave]

If a person, or group of people is distend to commit suicide (or a violent crime for that matter), guns laws or the lack there of will in no way deter the act.
Think 'Jones Town' tragedy.

The ONLY reason anti-gun fanatics spout things to the contrary is they are trying to promote their cause at any rate. Even if that entails massaging statistics (nice way of saying lying) , twisting scenarios or any other means of promoting their agenda.

I don't know how many(if any) of the Japanese citizens own guns but I'd bet that there weren't very many of those reported suicides done by using a gun as a tool to do it.

[Merad]

The disparity is shocking and has been a thorn in the side of the anti-firearms agendists who claim that fewer firearms will mean fewer suicides. The Japanese simply use less effective, but still efficient, means to accomplish their goal.

If we could somehow remove all guns there would almost certainly be some drop in the number of suicides in the US (probably not a huge drop, but enough to show up). People who really want to off themselves will always find a way. As already mentioned cultural differences can pretty easily account for the higher suicide rate in Japan.

The problem with gun suicide is that it's so quick and easy to pull the trigger. Other suicide methods either require a fairly significant amount of time to take effect, need effort/planning, or are more difficult to do. All of that means there's more opportunity to come to your senses and back out or even be saved after you've started....

Anyway, it's stupid to get involved in the argument to begin with. We don't (or shouldn't) ban items just because some people abuse them (see alcohol, various drugs, cars, a thousand other things).

[Nitesites]

I wouldn't truly know a dang thing about this but seems like this truly saddening issue is more about a nation's socially acceptable mindset. To me, the means to which they choose to achieve their end seems irrelevant when weighed against the "why?".

[shortwave]

If we could somehow remove all the guns there would almost certainly be some drop in the number of suicides in the U.S.(probably not a huge drop , but enough to show up)

Respectfully, even though the leading means of suicide in the US is by firearms, I don't know that I agree with this. As proven by other cultures with high suicide rates and are of anti-gun culture. We, being the inventive people we are here in the US, would just use another of many tactics.

The problem with gun suicide is that it's so quick and easy to pull the trigger.

IMO, when it would come to suicide, nothing easier than taking a bottle full of sleeping pills, , going to sleep and not waking up.

Bottomline, I don't think 'no guns' would affect U.S. suicide rates or suicide rates anywhere in the world. You'd just be taking away a tool a person was using to do something with and that person would replace that tool with another.

[Tom Servo]

Respectfully, Don't know that I agree with this.

True, but how do we prove it either way? Our opponents play on feelings and innuendo, and we've usually been good about countering that with tangible facts.

However, on a subject like this, we can only speculate. There are huge demographic and cultural differences between American and Japanese cultures.

I really don't see the discrepancy in suicide rates between two very different groups helping our arguments.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Tom Servo

I really don't see the discrepancy in suicide rates between two very different groups helping our arguments.

I do.

It's fundamental. It proves conclusively that fewer guns does not automatically result in fewer suicides.

That's all. It has NOTHING to do with cultural attitudes toward suicide. Don't over-complicate it. The anti-gunners claim fewer guns = fewer suicides. Japan PROVES this to be untrue.

The end.

[shortwave]

True, but how do we prove it either way?

We can't...since ALL guns will never be removed here in the US. I'm not giving mine up.

We can look at an anti-gun country such as Japan and see that their suicide rate is much higher than ours by whatever means they are using to achieve this, but the fact remains, since Japan citizens will probably never be allowed to own guns and the citizens in this country will continue to fight and keep our guns, we will never be able to compare fair statistics on the two countries as far as guns being the tool of choice to commit suicide.

But one thing known about suicide, if someone is determined to commit suicide for whatever reason , you will not stop them by not letting them around guns or strict gun laws. Good 'case-n-point is Japan.

[shortwave]

FWIW:

Googling 'countries with highest suicide rates in the world' turned up these top ten country's. I don't know all of these country's gun policies but I know several are very strict when it comes to their citizens having guns. I believe the gun laws in Lithuania are fairly strict. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Too, there were percentages per 100,000 people listed for each of the countries which I didn't copy but Lithuania is at an astounding 42% with Finland ranging about 23%. The rest ranged in between in order.

1. Lithuania
2.Russia
3.Belarus
4.Latvia
5.Estonia
6.Hungary
7.Slovenia
8.Ukraine
9.Kazakhstan
10.Finland

[jimpeel]

My apologies to all. I used the term "rate" when i meant "numbers". Sorry for any confusion.

[jimpeel]

Originally Posted by shortwave

IMO, when it would come to suicide, nothing easier than taking a bottle full of sleeping pills, , going to sleep and not waking up.

Lupe Velez might disagree.

[raftman]

FWIW:

Googling 'countries with highest suicide rates in the world' turned up these top ten country's. I don't know all of these country's gun policies but I know several are very strict when it comes to their citizens having guns. I believe the gun laws in Lithuania are fairly strict. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Too, there were percentages per 100,000 people listed for each of the countries which I didn't copy but Lithuania is at an astounding 42% with Finland ranging about 23%. The rest ranged in between in order.

1. Lithuania
2.Russia
3.Belarus
4.Latvia
5.Estonia
6.Hungary
7.Slovenia
8.Ukraine
9.Kazakhstan
10.Finland

Dunno how accurate that list is. Seems to be easy to find top-10 lists that are significantly different. For instance, another one states:

1. Lithuania
2. South Korea
3. Guyana
4. Kazakhstan
5. Belarus
6. Japan
7. Hungary
8. Russia
9. Latvia
10. China

In either case, it seems most countries on these lists do seem to have more restrictive gun laws than does the USA which suggests that there isn't a correlation between suicide rates and how accessible guns are to the public.

[Pond, James Pond]

OK.

Firstly, I don't really see that there is a real correlation between suicide and guns. Suicide is usually an act of either personal desperation, self sacrifice, or a result of an underlying psychological disorder. Guns are perhaps the means, not the cause. I think the only suicides that gun banning would avoid would be the impulsive form. A determined suicidal person will just opt for another method.

Suicide rates in Japan are largely due to it being a very high pressure society.

Kids study incredibly hard with next to no free time, to compete for insufficient University places and then onto a swamped job market.

Execs work ludicrously long days in crazy conditions (just google what a Japanese office workers workstation looks like, then compare with a US, or European one). It is not unusual for some to work so long that it is not worth their going home that evening.
In Japan the corporation comes first the individual second. All this creates a very high stress environment in a culture that typically does not vent nor display its emotions. Those conditions lead to very stressed people.

(@Shortwave.

I'd suggest double checking those statistics. I suspect the rates for Lithuania are 42 per 100000, not 42%. )

Anyway, suicide is not something one can just simply pigeon hole: the causes are many. If I had to speculate, I'd say the main one would probably be financial strife (aside from psychiatric complaints).

In the ex-Soviet states, the collapse of the Soviet system has been a massive strain. We may see the benefits, but social stratification is now very pronounced. Some are very rich, many are very poor. Many simply have not transitioned well from a society where the State took care of you, to one where you are accountable for yourself. That is a big leap to make, the same way it would be for Westerners to hand over control to the state entirely!

In the case of the Northern countries, there is also the pronounced psychological affects of polar nights: S.A.D, (Seasonal Affective Disorder).

Bottom line is that, personally, I see only a very tenuous link between firearms and suicide rates.

If you want to raise the subject of countries with firearm controls and death rates, it is interesting to note that Japanese deaths from violence are 0.6 per 100000, to the US's 6.5, or Estonia's 7.2!

In other words, drawing attention to the correlations of guns and deaths in Japan, is probably not a good idea....

I have to wonder: what are we really discussing here?
It seems the subject is meandering!!

[BlueTrain]

Apparently no one here really feels that suicide is a problem. After all, it's what someone else does to themselves. I suppose, too, there are good, or at least logical, reasons for suicide. Bad health, loss of a loved one, usually a spouse, exceptionally difficult economic circumstances, personal shame over something one has done but ultimatly, it is frustration with being unable to deal with these things. It might be seen as the ultimate expression of frustration. That's mainly for older people. It seems that younger people have their own sets of problems they can't handle. It can be a mean world and that's not even including the bad people.

It has been said that in Japan the reaction with some problems is to go in your room and kill yourself. Here, the reactions seems to be to go to someone else's room and kill other people.

I would hardly call Japan a godless country just because their religious traditions are a little different from yours. They are an exceptionally traditional country and they have a thing about ancestor worship. Well, I live in Virginia and we understand that perfectly well here.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I said that we DO NOT discuss religion. End of story.

There is a massive literature on suicide, culture and firearms. I don't see the need for endless uninformed speculation based on cliches.

If someone wants to go review that literature and post a cogent review - PM me.

Otherwise closed.