Trying to confirm the mod and determine DOB

plfrench · October 18, 2011, 06:46 PM

I just received my father in law's C.H.P. hand gun. I believe it is a Smith & Wessen mod 14, K-38 Special, Masterpiece Target Revolver with a 6in. barrel. It has 4 screws and a 10 grove backstrap. Its ser. # is K 51536. Its wood diamond checkered grips partially cover the S&M emblem on the frame. It has no mod.# on the inside of the cylinder frame.

**Mike Irwin** · October 18, 2011, 06:56 PM

With no Model number, a good clear photograph of both sides would go a long way towards helping identify it.

laytonj1 · October 18, 2011, 08:06 PM

K51536 dates it to 1948. It's a K-38 Target Masterpiece.
It became the Model 14 when S&W began assigning model numbers in 1957.

BTW, it's actually known as a 5 screw, 4 on the side plate and one in the front of the trigger guard.

Jim

plfrench · October 18, 2011, 08:51 PM

Thank you. Yes there is a fifth screw in the front of the trigger guard. Also I will take some pics and post them. I'll just have to do it later. Thank you all for your help.

Winchester_73 · October 18, 2011, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Yes there is a fifth screw in the front of the trigger guard.

That's actually the 4th screw, the true 5th screw is the one at the top of the frame, just forward the hammer. It doesn't matter though, with that low of a SN I already know your gun has the 5th screw. They're nice.

Sleuth · October 18, 2011, 10:56 PM

The thing to do now is write down everything you can find out about this gun, and your father-in-law's service. It does not matter if he never fired it in the line of duty.
Giving the gun 'Provenance" by linking it by serial number to him and his agency, turns this from "another old S&W" into a piece of family (and American) History!

plfrench · October 19, 2011, 01:12 AM

Thank you Sleuth. I'll find out as much as I can. His wife is still with us so I'll find out as much as I can from her and I'll contact the C.H.P. and see if they can provide any historical records about him. He was a station commander so there must be something.

carguychris · October 19, 2011, 10:19 AM

A few points...

Prior to 1957, S&W "Hand Ejector" swing-out cylinder revolvers only had names, not model numbers. In 1957, S&W superimposed a new model numbering system on their lineup by assigning model numbers 10-19 to K (medium) frames, 20-29 to N (large) frames, 30-38 to I or J (compact) frames, the number 39 to the 9mm automatic pistol, and the number 40 to the "Centennial" concealed-hammer J frame .38Spl revolver. Later models were assigned numbers in a haphazard semi-consecutive fashion. The numbers 1-9 were not used, presumably because some would duplicate the model numbers of earlier tip-up and top-break revolvers.

The naming system is confusing because the model names are normally only found on two S&W models: the Highway Patrolman (pre-Model 28, N frame .357Mag) and the .38 Regulation Police (pre-Model 33, I frame .38S&W). The only way to determine the model name for other pre-1957 guns is to check the box and owner's manual, which are usually missing, or more commonly to correlate the gun's frame size, capacity, chambering, and type of sights. For this reason, many people use the phrase "pre-Model" to describe earlier named guns that are similar to a post-1957 numbered model.

Quote:

It's a K-38 Target Masterpiece.

Yes and no.

The "Target" designation was informally added by collectors to more easily differentiate it from the K-38 Combat Masterpiece (4" barrel, ramp front sight). The proper name of the gun is simply the K-38 Masterpiece.

Quote:

Its wood diamond checkered grips partially cover the S&[W] emblem on the frame.

If you have reason to believe that the stocks (grips) are factory-original, I'd really like to see pictures of them, particularly viewed from the back. Early S&W oversize "Target" stocks have some interesting variations and some of these are very rare and valuable. (Yes, there are S&W collectors who go to great lengths to document and collect the wood stocks independent of the gun they came on.

)

Sleuth · October 19, 2011, 03:19 PM

S&W used to make the stocks from a single piece of wood, cut in half. I have seen them with matching grain.

They also used to serial number the stocks to the gun, so they could be matched up after finishing.

plfrench · October 19, 2011, 03:43 PM

I really appreciate the help. All the information I had on the gun I got from just hours looking at similar revolvers on the internet. I only believe that I’ve gotten pretty close but am not sure. Here are some pics I hope will help. The revolver was kept in the holster on the coast for years before it came to me. So it needs to be re-blued. It is very tight and clean otherwise.S&W K-38 002.jpg

S&W K-38 003.jpg

S&W K-38 004.jpg

Sleuth · October 19, 2011, 03:50 PM

PLEASE do NOT reblue it! That will destroy the collector value! Just consider collecting a period gunblet with holster, drop pouches, etc. Perhaps even a replica badge (esp. if you can find out his badge number), cap and cap device, etc. There may even be some old pictures of him!

Just think of your grandkids, seeing this display of what one member of the family did "way back when"!

James K · October 19, 2011, 03:52 PM

I assume that CHP stands for California (Colorado? Connecticut?) Highway Patrol. While police agencies often had pistol teams that competed with target pistols, I think it very unlikely that a K-38 would be chosen as a duty weapon. A Combat Masterpiece would be more likely but by the 1950's most state police were carrying heavier revolvers, either .357's or .38 revolvers better suited to heavy .38 Special loads.

Jim

plfrench · October 19, 2011, 03:53 PM

Sorry, I got the wrong picture in the previous post. Here is the other side picture.S&W K-38 001.jpg

Sleuth · October 19, 2011, 04:01 PM

CHP is the California Highway Patrol.

And "back in the day", the 6" .38 was pretty standard for a lot of agencies, including CHP. Just watch old 1970's "Adam 12" reruns or videos, they also carried the 6" K-38.

Considering that the issue ammo was the classic 158g RNL "stop, or I will wrinkel your suit" load, they felt the longer barrel and sight radius was an advantange.

plfrench · October 19, 2011, 04:03 PM

Sorry, yes the CHP stands for California Highway Patrol. This was his service revolver. I had seen it many times when he was still on the force. I also have his Sam Brown belt, clamshell quick release holster and all the equipment he carried. Also his badge and pictures of him and his first station house in Victorville, CA. Probably a lot more if I start looking, and I'll follow your advice and (I Won't Re-blue It).

Don P · October 19, 2011, 04:16 PM

Actually the gun should be classified as a KT-38 Masterpiece

plfrench · October 19, 2011, 04:22 PM

What does the T in the KT-38 stand for? Target?

carguychris · October 19, 2011, 04:48 PM

Ooh ooh ooh ooh! The stocks appear to be genuine non-relieved "Coke Bottle" Targets!!

"Coke Bottle" refers to the slight palmswell, which is only present on very early K frame Target stocks; non-relieved means no cutout for case head clearance on the LH side. You appear to have one of the most rare, valuable, and collectible sets of S&W stocks, especially given the gun's early build date.

I would recommend requesting a history letter from S&W to verify whether they came on the gun. Seriously, it should be worthwhile for this.

Quote:

What does the T in the KT-38 stand for? Target?

Technically, this gun- along with the K-22, K-32, Combat Masterpiece, and Combat Magnum (i.e. pre-Model 19)- were built on what S&W internally referred to as the "K Target" or "KT" frame. This reflects slight dimensional differences around the yoke and a wider, flatter, and matte-finished topstrap with a groove for the modern-style rear sight. Earlier K frame target revolvers had a narrower rear sight base and a rounded topstrap just like that found on fixed-sight K frames.

That said, I believe that the gun was marketed as a K-38 Masterpiece, not as a "KT" anything. Look at a period advertisement or box and you'll see "K-38 Masterpiece", no "Target" or "KT".

plfrench · October 19, 2011, 05:06 PM

What model would this revolver be then? Should I remove the grips and use different ones if I plan on shooting this piece?

carguychris · October 19, 2011, 06:01 PM

After looking at the pics again using a brighter monitor, it appears that the stocks may have been sanded down and refinished. This has the same effect on value as rebluing- it substantially reduces it.

I would recommend posting some brighter and higher-quality pictures to the S&W forum. I know enough about S&W stocks to recognize what they are, but I'm actually not a major expert on early Targets.

plfrench · October 19, 2011, 06:25 PM

Thank you Chris. I'll do that.

Sleuth · October 19, 2011, 06:30 PM

But don't be tempted to sell the grips seperate from the gun and other memorabilia. And carefully remove them to confirm if they are numbered to the gun. The serial number would be stamped into the inside of one of the grips.
Even if they are not numbered, they are a part of this piece of history.

October 18, 2011, 06:46 PM	#1
plfrench Junior Member Join Date: October 18, 2011 Location: Eugene, Oregon Posts: 9	Trying to confirm the mod and determine DOB I just received my father in law's C.H.P. hand gun. I believe it is a Smith & Wessen mod 14, K-38 Special, Masterpiece Target Revolver with a 6in. barrel. It has 4 screws and a 10 grove backstrap. Its ser. # is K 51536. Its wood diamond checkered grips partially cover the S&M emblem on the frame. It has no mod.# on the inside of the cylinder frame.

October 18, 2011, 06:56 PM	#2
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	With no Model number, a good clear photograph of both sides would go a long way towards helping identify it. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 18, 2011, 08:51 PM	#4
plfrench Junior Member Join Date: October 18, 2011 Location: Eugene, Oregon Posts: 9	Trying to confirm the mod and determine DOB Thank you. Yes there is a fifth screw in the front of the trigger guard. Also I will take some pics and post them. I'll just have to do it later. Thank you all for your help.

October 19, 2011, 01:12 AM	#7
plfrench Junior Member Join Date: October 18, 2011 Location: Eugene, Oregon Posts: 9	My father in law's gun Thank you Sleuth. I'll find out as much as I can. His wife is still with us so I'll find out as much as I can from her and I'll contact the C.H.P. and see if they can provide any historical records about him. He was a station commander so there must be something.

October 19, 2011, 03:43 PM	#10
plfrench Junior Member Join Date: October 18, 2011 Location: Eugene, Oregon Posts: 9	My father in law's gun I really appreciate the help. All the information I had on the gun I got from just hours looking at similar revolvers on the internet. I only believe that I’ve gotten pretty close but am not sure. Here are some pics I hope will help. The revolver was kept in the holster on the coast for years before it came to me. So it needs to be re-blued. It is very tight and clean otherwise.S&W K-38 002.jpg S&W K-38 003.jpg S&W K-38 004.jpg

October 18, 2011, 08:06 PM	#3
laytonj1 Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2005 Posts: 4,443	K51536 dates it to 1948. It's a K-38 Target Masterpiece. It became the Model 14 when S&W began assigning model numbers in 1957. BTW, it's actually known as a 5 screw, 4 on the side plate and one in the front of the trigger guard. Jim

October 18, 2011, 10:56 PM	#6
Sleuth Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 445	The thing to do now is write down everything you can find out about this gun, and your father-in-law's service. It does not matter if he never fired it in the line of duty. Giving the gun 'Provenance" by linking it by serial number to him and his agency, turns this from "another old S&W" into a piece of family (and American) History!

October 19, 2011, 03:19 PM	#9
Sleuth Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 445	S&W used to make the stocks from a single piece of wood, cut in half. I have seen them with matching grain. They also used to serial number the stocks to the gun, so they could be matched up after finishing.

October 19, 2011, 03:50 PM	#11
Sleuth Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 445	PLEASE do NOT reblue it! That will destroy the collector value! Just consider collecting a period gunblet with holster, drop pouches, etc. Perhaps even a replica badge (esp. if you can find out his badge number), cap and cap device, etc. There may even be some old pictures of him! Just think of your grandkids, seeing this display of what one member of the family did "way back when"!

October 19, 2011, 03:52 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I assume that CHP stands for California (Colorado? Connecticut?) Highway Patrol. While police agencies often had pistol teams that competed with target pistols, I think it very unlikely that a K-38 would be chosen as a duty weapon. A Combat Masterpiece would be more likely but by the 1950's most state police were carrying heavier revolvers, either .357's or .38 revolvers better suited to heavy .38 Special loads. Jim

October 19, 2011, 03:53 PM	#13
plfrench Junior Member Join Date: October 18, 2011 Location: Eugene, Oregon Posts: 9	My father in law's gun Sorry, I got the wrong picture in the previous post. Here is the other side picture.S&W K-38 001.jpg

October 19, 2011, 04:01 PM	#14
Sleuth Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 445	CHP is the California Highway Patrol. And "back in the day", the 6" .38 was pretty standard for a lot of agencies, including CHP. Just watch old 1970's "Adam 12" reruns or videos, they also carried the 6" K-38. Considering that the issue ammo was the classic 158g RNL "stop, or I will wrinkel your suit" load, they felt the longer barrel and sight radius was an advantange.

October 19, 2011, 04:03 PM	#15
plfrench Junior Member Join Date: October 18, 2011 Location: Eugene, Oregon Posts: 9	Sorry, yes the CHP stands for California Highway Patrol. This was his service revolver. I had seen it many times when he was still on the force. I also have his Sam Brown belt, clamshell quick release holster and all the equipment he carried. Also his badge and pictures of him and his first station house in Victorville, CA. Probably a lot more if I start looking, and I'll follow your advice and (I Won't Re-blue It).

October 19, 2011, 04:16 PM	#16
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,213	Actually the gun should be classified as a KT-38 Masterpiece __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

October 19, 2011, 04:22 PM	#17
plfrench Junior Member Join Date: October 18, 2011 Location: Eugene, Oregon Posts: 9	What does the T in the KT-38 stand for? Target? Last edited by plfrench; October 19, 2011 at 04:31 PM.

October 19, 2011, 05:06 PM	#19
plfrench Junior Member Join Date: October 18, 2011 Location: Eugene, Oregon Posts: 9	What model would this revolver be then? Should I remove the grips and use different ones if I plan on shooting this piece?

October 19, 2011, 06:01 PM	#20
carguychris Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2007 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 7,523	After looking at the pics again using a brighter monitor, it appears that the stocks may have been sanded down and refinished. This has the same effect on value as rebluing- it substantially reduces it. I would recommend posting some brighter and higher-quality pictures to the S&W forum. I know enough about S&W stocks to recognize what they are, but I'm actually not a major expert on early Targets.

October 19, 2011, 06:25 PM	#21
plfrench Junior Member Join Date: October 18, 2011 Location: Eugene, Oregon Posts: 9	Thank you Chris. I'll do that.

October 19, 2011, 06:30 PM	#22
Sleuth Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 445	But don't be tempted to sell the grips seperate from the gun and other memorabilia. And carefully remove them to confirm if they are numbered to the gun. The serial number would be stamped into the inside of one of the grips. Even if they are not numbered, they are a part of this piece of history.