45 ACP reload question

[usafvet]

Got around to cleaning, resizing, and priming my stockpile of 45 ACP range pickups. I have been reloading 45 ACP for 35 years, but I ran across a stumper in this batch. WHEN did Federal start using SMALL primers in their .45's?
I figured out what was wrong when trying to swage/ream the primer pocket, but I did not know Federal started using small primers.
It was really a pain in the rear to sort through 1000 rounds of brass to seperate out the small primers. Just wondering if anyone knows why they started doing this.

[Frank_CPL_USMC]

I don't know why, but i bought 250 pieces of brass at the last gun show. looked at the head stamps and saw most were federal, didnt think twice, and tossed them into an ammo can with my other .45 brass. noticed a couple days later all 250 pieces were small primer, now mixed in with about 700 pieces of large primer brass. havnt even started sorting them yet. : (

[Scimmia]

Because the 45 ACP doesn't need a large pistol primer, so it's counterproductive for them to have to stock large primers if they don't make anything else with them. It also has to do with the new non-toxic primers used in ammo like WinClean, which aren't even made in large pistol size. You'll find it's not only Federal, but Blazer, Fiocchi, etc

[BigJimP]

Small pistol primers are common in head stamps that are market NT for Non Toxic .... WIN NT / FED NT etc ... and they're using non toxic or lead free primers as I understand it.

Not all Fed head stamps are small primers - only the NT cases / and all of them I've seen are marked NT. But Win NT sold a lot of ammo in .45 acp 230gr RN at my local range ....and I was seeing a lot of it when I was sweeping up cases. These days I don't see as much of it laying around ...because most of the NT is more expensive ....

After I clean my cases ....I inspect them and toss out the NT stuff ...its isn't worth fussing with.

The other case you'll have trouble with re-sizing is AMERC ...there is something in the brass / or a steel sleeve or something that makes it next to impossible to re-size properly even with good carbide dies.

The guys that sold you the NT cases - are crooks - because they probably knew what they were selling was small primers ...or it was marked NT and you didn't realize what it meant...so now its an education.

Win NT / WinClean in .45 acp 230 gr RN was showing up about 10 yrs ago...and I've been seeing Fed NT for last couple of yrs at least. AMERC has been showing up around here ...because someone at the gun show is selling it as cheap ammo.

[LarryFlew]

Small pistol primers are common in head stamps that are market NT for Non Toxic .... WIN NT / FED NT etc ... and they're using non toxic or lead free primers as I understand it.

Ditto per article in one of the last guns and ammo

[Scimmia]

Not all Fed head stamps are small primers - only the NT cases / and all of them I've seen are marked NT.

Flat out not true. The Federal 45 rounds from Wal-Mart are now small primers, but are NOT NT. It's becoming more and more common. S&B, Speer/Blazer, Federal, and Fiocchi are going to small primers in their non-NT ammo.

[springer99]

(quote)Flat out not true. The Federal 45 rounds from Wal-Mart are now small primers, but are NOT NT. It's becoming more and more common. S&B, Speer/Blazer, Federal, and Fiocchi are going to small primers in their non-NT ammo.(quote)

Scimmia, where did you get this information from? If true, I'd guess it's probably because those companies get their brass from the same source; I can't imagine why it would have anything to do with cost.

[Scimmia]

Mostly from ammo or brass that I have seen an/or used. The S&B I have been told about, but have not seen myself, never shot their ammo.

[jag2]

JMO, I think the manufacturers have found that .45s work just as well with small primers as large. Probably one of those things, it was always accepted and nobody tried anything different. At retail large primers are usually the same price as small but I bet at wholesale or just pure manufacturing cost the smalls are cheaper. If they are just 1/10 of cent cheaper than large, just imagine how much would go to their bottom line considering how many rounds are produced each year. It's all about business fellas, deal with it.

[Smaug]

CCI Blazer Brass also uses the small primers.

It seems to me like a cost-cutting measure.

The thing that makes me wonder is if large pistol primers were never needed for 45 ACP, why did they ever use them? I bet they're more reliable for ignition. Why do I think that? Because all the defense ammo I've seen in 45 ACP still uses large primers.

So far, my 45 ACP brass is all large. When I see small primed ones, I just throw them out, as if they were aluminum Blazer cases. What is this world coming to?

Soon enough they're going to make it impossible for us to even reload without buying specialty brass. That will be the day I stop shooting autos.

[Rifletom]

I mostly use Starline brass or reload the factory ammo brass I've shot up; usually R-P and Win. But, I've been picking up some range brass lately, and have found some small primed cases. Was thinking of tossing them, but, I'll keep 'em because I believe we'll be seeing more of these. Brass is brass.

[chris in va]

Noticed that too. Had a few non-NT cases that were small pistol.

[Rifletom]

Last Friday while at the range, was able to collect 45 Wilson brass[45 pcs of .45acp!]. I thought the shooter would pick them up; but he left!,Yippee!

[riverwalker76]

Small Primer 45 ACP are 'California Friendly'. They are a pain when I run across 3 out of 1000 from my bulk milsurp purchases.

[Scimmia]

The thing that makes me wonder is if large pistol primers were never needed for 45 ACP, why did they ever use them? I bet they're more reliable for ignition. Why do I think that? Because all the defense ammo I've seen in 45 ACP still uses large primers.

Story I've heard is that the 45 ACP was developed from the 30-06 cartridge, which uses a large primer. Haven't been able to verify that, though.

[Red Dog]

I would not have a problem with small primers on 45 ACP, assuming no functional issues. I would never buy lpp.

[m&p45acp10+1]

I have a 3 pound coffee can full of small primer .45 acp. I loaded up quite a few with standard small pistol primers. With my shooting I did not notice any differance at all running the same charge of Bull's Eye.

I keep them for those times when I am going to shoot somewhere I know I am gonna loose the brass. I do not cry about it, and it is not missed. It works the same, though sorting them out is a pain in the butt most times.

[Tactical3HolePunch]

I am sitting on about 1600 45 empties, probably 300 of which are Federal SPP brass.

I also reload 38SPL which uses exclusively SPP's and I buy 1000 of LPP and SPP regularly.

I have not noticed any difference in the performance of SPP 45 vs LPP 45.

When I do, I will make changes accordingly.

As of now it's simply one more step in sorting after tumbling before I can process ammunition as I prime by hand.

[springer99]

At the quantities of primers that ammo mfg. purchase of either size, I still doubt that they'd see much cost reduction betwen SPP and LPP. Especially as they'd still have to purchase both to support other cartridges. Any very small savings would have to be off-set by tooling changes to make difference cases. Unless, of course, they buy their cases. Then, I guess they may not have a choice in the matter.

Regardless, so far at the ranges I attend, the only 45ACP with SPP that I've seen have been a few Federal. When I run across them, they go right into my scrap bin to be sold to the re-cyclers. So far, not worth the hassle of using.

[Shootest]

I see no difference in LPP and SPP, but agree that they are a pain to sort. Also I believe since they are starting to make 45 GAP which use SPP, converting 45 ACP to SPP makes it easier for them to change between the two.

[Scimmia]

At the quantities of primers that ammo mfg. purchase of either size, I still doubt that they'd see much cost reduction betwen SPP and LPP. Especially as they'd still have to purchase both to support other cartridges

I was thinking about that, and I can't see that much demand for large pistol primers outside of 45 ACP. It's the only high production volume cartridge that uses it, so if they convert that to small primers, the SPP volume would go up, potentially making price go down even more. What's the next highest production volume case that uses standard large pistol primers, 44 special? 10mm?

[Dapperdan]

BigJimP, you're right about that AMERC brass. It's the only 9MM Luger case that I've had problems with. My carbide sizer left a ring of pushed up metal just ahead of the case rim, and that's where it stopped when chambering. I seldom see it, but I sure won't forget that headstamp.

[William T. Watts]

I was going to purchase a couple of boxes of FC 45ACP ammunition from Wal/Mart (for the brass) and found they had small primers. I decided I didn't want to have to keep small primers in my inventory, I gave them back to the clerk and told him why. Aggravated me though! William

[jaguarxk120]

One other note about the NT case's, they have a larger flash hole. I can only guess that the NT priming mix needs the larger hole as it may be not as strong when lighting off the powder charge.

[Scimmia]

One other note about the NT case's, they have a larger flash hole. I can only guess that the NT priming mix needs the larger hole as it may be not as strong when lighting off the powder charge.

Again just what I've been told, but DiazoDiNitroPhenol (DDNP) is more explosive than lead styphnate, so they need the larger flash hole to keep the pressure in the primer pocket in check.