Future of Ruger/S&W production - China?

[nodule]

Hi,

So is it just a matter of time(probably sooner than later) that BOTH Ruger
and Smith and Wessen will cave in and move all production to China and/or
Taiwan??

They can pay Chinese/Taiwanese kids 2.50/hr to make the guns and im sure
quality would not be up to USA standards.

Im kinda suprised that they are holding on to USA manufacturing this long.
Its a true shame, but im sure its gonna happen.

What are your thoughts?

[Rogervzv]

I think it will never happen. My notion is that:

a) the gun business is too quality focused to allow this;

b) the trend for businesses to locate manufacturing in China has probably peaked. No trend lasts forever.

If they start making them in China I will stop buying them. Pretty simple.

[SPUSCG]

Ruger ownership and production has always been american and they still have good prices, why would they pull something like that?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Aren't imports of such firearms from China currently banned?

So, someone look that up as to whether a new company from China could import. An article on the latest Chinese military and police guns said that such handguns couldn't be sold here.

Last, everone check to see where the computer you are posturing on - was made.

I also recall the big fits the gun world had when Chinese ammo was taken out of play.

[SPUSCG]

Think its just norinco thats banned, cowboy action shotgun replicas have been made in china and imported.

[nodule]

Why?

Well, because China/Taiwan can pay teenagers/adults $2.50/hour to make
the guns instead of paying American workers $20.00/hour. Its pretty simple
math.

This troubling trend has been happening for some 15 years now.
MANY great American companies who people has said that can NEVER happen
to that company, and it happens!

How can they possibly compete with that? They cant!

[Winchester_73]

Well one thing is for sure: neither company is big enough to go alone meaning that if Ruger went to China, their sales would drop sharply and other brands sales would increase and the same would be true for vice versa. Whichever company went over there by itself would lose a lot of money initially and even if their guns were tested 1000000x and found to be as good or better as American guns, people would still want American made. I also agree that Ruger has ZERO reason to move production to China, at least any time soon. They already are a good value and American made. If it isn't broke, then.....as the old saying goes.

[18DAI]

I doubt it would happen.

With S&W's stock still tanked, hopefully a gun company will buy them out. Then make some worthwhile handguns here in the US.

Handguns that are desireable.....like pre 2000 S&W's were. That probably won't happen either though. Regards 18DAI.

[earlthegoat2]

S&W should just farm out their work to Taurus. What Taurus guns currently are would be the end result of S&W moving production overseas. Shoot, maybe they should just sell out to Taurus. At least Taurus comes up with new ideas pretty frequently.

[Andy Taylor]

Way to iffy on the political front. At least some guns are banned for import from China. Other guns are banned from importation completely, from anywhere. You don't think the antis would be all over that opportunity if they moved? Even if they thought they could make the guns cheaper over there, they wouldn't for fear of being banned. The US is the world's largest civilian firearms market.

[CWKahrFan]

At least some components of Remington/Marlin/H&R/NEF Pardner Pump shotguns have been made in China for quite some time... No secret... They're stamped "Made in China, Hawk Industries" on the receiver. Quality is consistant and adequate... They sell a bunch. Just sayin'...

[stu925]

I think both companies would lose too much business if they moved to China. Both companies heavily tout the fact that they are American made and I think they know that the majority of shooters in the U.S. would rather buy an American made product. I also think that both companies know that though it might be cheaper to produce guns out of the U.S., I think most U.S. gun owners are willing to pay a bit more for a quality product built in the U.S. In my case I wouldn't support either company if they moved production out of the U.S.

Stu

[BarryLee]

The more likely scenario would be having individual components made offshore and the final assembly occurring in the US. This way they can still say their guns are American made even though many parts are made somewhere else.

As for quality I do not know that it would necessarily suffer if this happened. Regardless of whether we like it or not many items made in Asia are of excellent quality. Look at the variety of electronic items that are either totally or partially Asian made. What about Asian automobiles? Anyone ever heard of Honda or Toyota?

Cost would certainly be reduced if they did this, but this would be tricky. Would the strong patriotic feeling of many gun enthusiasts overcome America’s love for “cheap deals”? Many American companies have gone out of business or shifted production overseas not because of greedy business people, but consumers who want the cheapest price possible. It is what some refer to as the Wal-Mart effect. After working in the manufacturing industry for years I can assure you most companies hate doing business offshore, but sometimes it is unavoidable if you want to compete at acceptable price points.

Personally I wish more manufacturing was handled in the US. The manufacturing industry is an excellent place to work and often a very good corporate citizen. However, it is up to the consumer to decide what we want - Made in the U.S.A. or the cheapest price.

[8shot357]

Norinco boy

N O R I N C O



Thanks tool

[357 Python]

I was looking at a couple of S&W J frame 38 Specials over the weekend for my wife and with the quality of the triggers on them I'm not so sure they haven't already. It seems the J frame triggers are no where near as good as the K, L, or N frame lines are. They were 2 to 3 times as heavy and rough. I haven't bought a new S&W revolver for a while now and am glad I have the ones I do. Nice crisp, smooth, relatively light (8 - 12 pounds double action) trigger pulls. The J frames I tried seemed to be in excess of 16 pounds. Why pay $450 to $700 for a gun that you have to pay for a trigger job on right off the bat just to make it useable?

[Webleymkv]

I doubt it, they both seem to be doing fairly well. Honestly, the cost of manufacturing in the U.S. has less to do with the cost of labor and more to do with how you handle your business. Take the automotive industry for example, GM and Chrysler were not able to remain competitive while Ford was able to keep their heads above water and is now quite profitable. Also, both Toyota and Honda are doing quite well and both manufacture a great deal of their products in the U.S. (Toyota has at least two plants in Indiana and at least one in Texas and Honda has at least one plant in Indiana that I know of).

[Eagle0711]

Ruger and S&W could move to China. It's my understanding that Winchester is now in Japan.

I heard on the news a while back that Chineese workers are tired of being screwed and are wanting to go union.

I hope that they never move, both are great American Icons. S&W was owned an English Co. few years ago. I don't know if it was Bangor- Punta that owned them at that time, but their quality suffered for a time.

[nodule]

Can you imagine having our guns made by 12 year old boys in the sweatshops
of China, Malaysia and Taiwan??

[mhblaw]

Why would Ruger leave? Check their stock, RGR, $15.30 on first of year; today at $21.71. Pays a modest dividend as well.

[old bear]

Last, everone check to see where the computer you are posturing on - was made.

Lenovo, need I say more?

I believe that there are some strong import regulations about firearms from China now. As others have stated the China trend has slowed yet it will never totally stop. Both Ruger and Smith are old line American companies that will, I hope, have a strong base here. If not my SMALL collection of S&W's will skyrocket in value.

[Wrangler5]

It seems the J frame triggers are no where near as good as the K, L, or N frame lines are. They were 2 to 3 times as heavy and rough. I haven't bought a new S&W revolver for a while now and am glad I have the ones I do. Nice crisp, smooth, relatively light (8 - 12 pounds double action) trigger pulls. The J frames I tried seemed to be in excess of 16 pounds. Why pay $450 to $700 for a gun that you have to pay for a trigger job on right off the bat just to make it useable?

I've read that the small size/low mass of J frame hammers necessitates a heavier mainspring than larger guns need for reliable ignition. Plus, the smaller space available for the hammer/trigger mechanism means J frame triggers don't give the same leverage against the hammer as you can get in larger guns.

Lighter springs are available, but (again, I've read that) without proper polishing of internal parts to completely eliminate stiction, especially on the rebound slide, there's a risk that these lighter springs won't prove perfectly reliable.

So I think heavier triggers are more or less part of the package, although they do smooth out with use. (How well broken in are those delightful guns you already own?)

Could S&W do more internal work to improve the triggers out of the box? Undoubtedly. But at what increase in the retail price? Since I gather S&W pretty much sells every J frame it makes, even with the triggers as they are, I'd guess that the economics of being in a business dictate that the current design is good enough for the marketplace. I think that's pretty much all you can expect from a publicly held business.

[Kreyzhorse]

Nothing is impossible however I doubt that you'll see S&W and Ruger move all of their production over seas.

I do sense it is possible that they might shift some production over seas however. Think Springfield as an example. Some of their guns are made and assembled totally in Brazil. Other models, while the parts may be made in Brazil, are fitted and assembled in the USA. I can see S&W and Ruger both doing that at some point. It would likely lower some of their production costs but still allow them to maintain quaility control.

[BlueTrain]

I think another one of the reasons things made not only in China but many other countries are less expensive to manufacture is because the executives aren't paid astronomical amounts compared with what the guy on the shop floor is paid. But corporations do not exist for the worker in the first place. They're supposed to exist for the stockholder but that doesn't always hold true either.

It should be no surprise that quality firearms can be made in China. I remember very distinctly hearing someone from the NRA complimenting the quality of a Norinco .45 auto. The problem comes up when companies give into the temptation to cheapen the product even further, because that's why production was moved across the border in the first place.

All the same, it is easy to forget that cheap products have been around for a long time, as well as a large market for them and that includes guns. Most of the 19th century brands of inexpensive guns are forgotten now but we still have their modern day equivalents. Of course, there were lots of good ones that are also almost forgotten, too, here and in Europe (although remembered well enough here, apparently). Some brands disappeared not because the products were poor but rather because their main customer put too much pressure on them. Sears did that and Wal-Mart does the same thing. So some companies do not sell things through Wal-Mart. Where the product is made has no bearing on that. The so-called Wal-Mart effect has been around a lot longer than Wal-Mart.

On the other hand, it would be interesting to see what they could come up with. Their new line of military small arms, which is probably not on the international market (and which is probably saturated), is fairly innovative from what I've read about it. I wonder what they could come up with in the way of sporting and commercial non-military firearms products.

After all, they discovered gunpowder.

[Bart Noir]

There are current articles about human-rights activists being arrested and staying arrested, in China.

And companies like Norinco are partially owned by the Chinese military.

I really don't think there is a snowball's chance in Al Goreland that any mainland Chinese will unionize. Not as we understand the term. The official, Gov sponsored union, maybe yes. Maybe they have to join that one. Or I could just be remembering the old days in the Communist world.

Bart Noir

[8shot357]

Post #16

Webleymkv

I doubt it, they both seem to be doing fairly well. Honestly, the cost of manufacturing in the U.S. has less to do with the cost of labor and more to do with how you handle your business. Take the automotive industry for example, GM and Chrysler were not able to remain competitive while Ford was able to keep their heads above water and is now quite profitable. Also, both Toyota and Honda are doing quite well and both manufacture a great deal of their products in the U.S. (Toyota has at least two plants in Indiana and at least one in Texas and Honda has at least one plant in Indiana that I know of).

Thank you, I have a 1984 Honda Gold Wing. Some Harley guy was "Trying" to give me crap about riding a "rice burner". I informed him that my bike was made in America. He said, "Yeah, but it was all Jap parts." I said "Sr, my bike is made of Japanese and American parts, just like your Harley is!"

Showa is owned by Honda.

He was confused.