Small of back carry - palm in or palm out?

Doyle · January 7, 2011, 05:42 PM

I'm thinking of getting a new holster for small-of-the-back carry (5 o'clock position). I noticed that some people use a normal IWB holster for the hand they use (i.e. right handed holster for a right handed shooter). Some shooters however, like to use a left handed holster for a right-handed 5 o'clock carry. The difference essentially is grabbing the grip with the palm towards your back or grabbing with your palm away from your back. I'm thinking I'd like to go with the palm out method (requiring a left-hand IWB holster).

I'd like to hear some thoughts on this from people who carry each way.

Microgunner · January 7, 2011, 05:46 PM

Palm out.

Don P · January 7, 2011, 05:49 PM

I don't carry that way and using what was learned in training palm out for a right handed person would be the way to go. We were taught that when you place a firearm down you want to place it so when you pick it up you are placing your palm on top of the grip when grabbing the gun and not trying to get your hand under the gun ( trying to scoop it up off the table)
Just my 2 schillings worth

TailGator · January 7, 2011, 06:03 PM

I carried SOB for quite a while and grew to dislike it for several reasons that don't apply to your question. But after trying it both ways, I felt like I had better access to a firing grip on the gun by carrying it palm out. You have to reach further behind your back to get a grip when carrying palm in.

I moved to 3:30 to 4:00 for carry, though, for reasons of retention and concealment. It is a bit of a problem when the shirt tail or coat tail rides up over the gun and it is behind you - out of sight of you but in full view of your audience.

ripnbst · January 7, 2011, 06:15 PM

Laces Out...Er...Palm Out

Johnnie Wadcutter · January 9, 2011, 10:37 PM

I've thought about this question as well and after doing some research it seems like you have a better chance of sweeping your kidneys upon draw.YMMV. I carry at 5:30, 'palm in' for what it's worth.

Bill DeShivs · January 9, 2011, 10:57 PM

SOB carry is the mark of the inexperienced.
SOB palm-out is the mark of the inexperienced that have been watching too many movies.

Bailey Boat · January 10, 2011, 08:58 AM

Anyone that carries SOB never sits down..... OR..... is impervious to pain...

LordTio3 · January 10, 2011, 09:17 AM

If I were there with you now, I could show you why you shouldn't carry palm out behind your center-line. There would be some pain, and you would almost definitely be unable to retain your pistol.

When you place your pistol palm out behind your back, you are placing it in such a way that you must rotate your arm 90% of the way into a literal "arm-bar" in order to draw your weapon. Your grip on your pistol, even when gripping with full force at this angle, is extremely weak; and weapon retention under assault or struggle has just become quite unlikely.

I have a friend who was about to order a left-handed belt holster (he's right handed) so that he could carry in this fashion. I told him to unload his pistol and tuck it in his belt that way turn his back to me and try to draw. Reaching behind him, I simply grabbed his hand with one of my own and rotated his palm upwards toward the ceiling, which caused him to raise up on his toes and allowed me to prevent him from turning around or moving much at all. Pain ensued. Calmly, I raised his hand up a bit further, used my other hand to draw his pistol, and gave him a little push forward. Easy as you please.

Behind your center-line, palm out is a bad idea. Go with a strong side, right handed holster, palm in, at about 4:30 and never look back. You'll also avoid the spinal injuries associated with 6 o'clock carriage (which is why police officers don't carry their handcuffs there anymore).

~LT

spacecoast · January 10, 2011, 09:36 AM

If you can grab a pistol on your back centerline with palm in, then you are more flexible than I am. I wouldn't carry it there, but if I did for some reason it would be palm out. I have a tough enough time with it OWB (palm in) at 4 o'clock.

output · January 10, 2011, 12:00 PM

I would keep body movement/motion to a bare minimum. How can you get to your firearm with the least amount of body movement, the fastest? I am guessing its palm out.

Best of luck.

jimbob86 · January 10, 2011, 01:11 PM

SOB carry.....

......palm out means you sweep your own pelvis on the draw.....

......palm in means you sweep the legs of anyone to your strong side.....

Either way, you just about have to put yourself in a chicken-wing to get your gun out. Foolish in a close quarters situation.

Not to mention, if you fall (are pushed?) flat on your back, you are landing your lumbar on a hard object .....ouch.

Slow/awkward to draw, uncomfortable to sit, prints badly if you lean forward..... nigh impossible to get the gun out while seated.......

Quote:

SOB carry is the mark of the inexperienced.

Yep, That^.

Doyle · January 10, 2011, 01:18 PM

I hear what you guys are saying about SOB carry. I really don't know as I have much of a choice. My hips are really boney, so 2 o'clock to 4 o'clock positions would be pretty uncomfortable for me. Belly band is one option I suppose. I already use a Smart Carry sometimes, but that requires somewhat baggy pants.

I was thinking of a 5 o'clock position. That would avoid the spine issues. I just wish spring would hurry up and get here so I could start wearing shorts again. With shorts, I pocket carry.

Long Path · January 10, 2011, 01:23 PM

When you're saying "palm in", do you mean hand to the inside of the gun, palm facing out, or do you mean hand to the outside of the gun, facing in?

I prefer the latter, for better retention during draw, and more direct presentation.

stephen426 · January 10, 2011, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

SOB carry is the mark of the inexperienced.
SOB palm-out is the mark of the inexperienced that have been watching too many movies.

^Totally agree with that statement

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bailey Boat

Anyone that carries SOB never sits down..... OR..... is impervious to pain...

^Agree with that statement and would like to add... or has huge love handles that provide a nice cushiony place to hide your gun.

If you are able to carry a gun SOB, then you should also be able to carry it strong side. Either way, you will need a garment to cover the gun. Strong side is way faster to draw from, way easier to retain your weapon, and you don't sweep anyone with the muzzle unless you are really tall, hovering over a hoard of midgets, or you are not on the ground floor and people are walking below you.

jfruser · January 10, 2011, 06:08 PM

Not a big fan of SOB or nearly-SOB carry. I like a nice strong-side, IWB preferred, OWB after that, and then a quality shoulder rig(1) for lots of reasons over SOB. (Maybe if I had a choice mustache and drove a red Ferrari I might think otherwise.)

I think that we ought to keep in mind that "everyone ain't like me." Meaning, what works for me may not work for thee. In some cases this is due to injury, body shape, or other factors that are beyond the control of the CCW-er and not necessarily the sign of a newb or a fool.

The OP may be both, but I'll assume he is not and, after voicing my preferences for strong-side carry, I think it helpful to actually attempt the answer the query.

First off, one is no more compelled to sweep oneself with SOB than one is compelled to sweep one's hand/arm when carrying cross-draw or a shoulder holster. It just takes an understanding of where the muzzle is pointed and training to keep it from intersecting one's body by manipulating body or pistol.

It requires 5 seconds to demonstrate live, but 15 minutes to describe.

(Assuming "palm out" gun/holster orientation, where the butt is pointed roughly to the right on a right-handed shooter. Requires vertical lefty holster or left-handed cross-draw holster in SOB or near-SOB position.)

1. Get palm-out grip on pistol butt.
2. Draw IOW the angle of the holster. Up for vertical, Roughly 45deg for cross-draw.
3. Maintain wrist orientation: don't pronate, supinate, or rotate wrist through step #5.
4. While maintaining pistol, hand, wrist, forearm, and upper arm in roughly the same vertical plane, swing forearm (& wrist, hand, & pistol) away from body centerline (as viewed from behind), using your elbow as the main hinge/axis, until the muzzle is pointing directly at the ground and pistol is roughly vertical. This ought to bring the pistol out from behind your back.
5. Swing/rotate pistol forward, keeping muzzle from crossing your body. Once the pistol is at your body's centerline (as viewed from the side), it is similar to a strong-side draw, manipulation-wise.

It requires some practice and is slower than strong-side. Also, strong-side provides less opportunity to sweep your body. Others have pointed out retention issues. These are all good reasons many prefer strong-side over SOB.

(1) I have gotten to the place where I am no longer promiscuous with my CCW and have quality IWB, OWB/pancake, and shoulder holsters for my primary CCWs.

brickeyee · January 11, 2011, 09:32 AM

Move it around towards your strong side a little further and not directly over the spine.

There is usually enough of a depression in the back there to still conceal well, and the reach is less strenuous (and you do not want to sweep yourself).

MrDontPlay · January 21, 2011, 02:58 AM

I carry both gold plated 1911s SOB...

But really I have a lefty holster and carry at about 4:30 palm out. I find it pretty easy to draw over palm in.

psyfly · January 21, 2011, 07:19 AM

^^^Just like that. (I only have one with gold, though

).

For abour 30 years or so.

I've studied it and had others observe as well, and I don't sweep anything but the floor.

Do it the way you like it, as long as you are assured it's safe. I won't call you any names.

Best,

Will

LordTio3 · January 21, 2011, 09:22 AM

....groan....

In threads like this, it's really God-awful apparent that very few people do Retention Drills.

~LT

Bulldawg55 · January 21, 2011, 10:21 AM

Sorry, The only thought I have about your carry choices is that I'd never use either.

Mostly carry at 3:45 and seldomly at 12:37.

psyfly · January 21, 2011, 10:30 AM

LordTio3:

Absolutely correct.

I am 67 years old, I am post cardiac surgery and on limited physical activity. I don't do retention drills.

Try not to worry about it so much.

I did recently take a 12 week course in Krav Maga (tailored to my age and health situation) and I feel I learned a lot.

Mostly, don't let anyone get that close if you can help it

.

Keep safe.

Best,

Will

LordTio3 · January 21, 2011, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Mostly carry at 3:45 and seldomly at 12:37.

Hmmm... so both the kids getting out of school and the crazy workers on their lunch breaks have been giving you a lot of trouble?

Quote:

Mostly, don't let anyone get that close if you can help it .

This is THE philosophy. Avoidance and prepardness are key. But sometimes you just can't help it. Then again there are those things we've all got to accept from time to time, like our age and physical limitations. I accept the fact that if 9 guys all jump from behind a corner and attack me, I'll probably lose, so I don't train for that. But weapon retention isn't something I'm ready to give up on quite yet (most cops who are shot and killed are done so with their own weapons). So for that, I advocate palm-in for behind the center-line.

And...

Quote:

I did recently take a 12 week course in Krav Maga (tailored to my age and health situation) and I feel I learned a lot.

Freaking awesome dude.

~LT

Doyle · January 21, 2011, 11:34 AM

Quote:

most cops who are shot and killed are done so with their own weapons).

True, BUT the cops who are killed with their own guns are always trying to arrest someone. I have no intention of trying to arrest any one - nor even getting that close. 1st rule in self defense - distance is your friend.

Wag · January 21, 2011, 01:37 PM

I'm inexperienced in CCW, however, I use a belly band and carry at about 3:36 and 20 seconds.

And a good forward cant. It stays concealed very well under any shirt I wear which is moderately baggy.

I hear a lot of tradeoffs going on in the thread which makes me think that you have to weigh the potential difficulties with the advantages of each method of carry. I'm definitely paying attention to the other posters on this thread.

For a long time, I used to think I wanted to carry SOB but the realization that if I ever fell on my gun because someone shoved me, I'd be injured very very badly. Not a viable option for me. Moving it over somewhere to 4:00 to 5:00 seemed to make it impossible to conceal unless I use a mouse gun which I don't have and besides, it still seems like it would cause serious injury.

My hip, on the other hand, might hurt if I fell on it but it's far more accessible to me and it's much easier to move my hip away from an attacker and still maintain the ability to ward off blows in an unavoidable confrontation. The downsides? Pretty minimal and seem to be equivalent, at least, to other carry locations.

--Wag--

January 7, 2011, 05:42 PM	#1
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	Small of back carry - palm in or palm out? I'm thinking of getting a new holster for small-of-the-back carry (5 o'clock position). I noticed that some people use a normal IWB holster for the hand they use (i.e. right handed holster for a right handed shooter). Some shooters however, like to use a left handed holster for a right-handed 5 o'clock carry. The difference essentially is grabbing the grip with the palm towards your back or grabbing with your palm away from your back. I'm thinking I'd like to go with the palm out method (requiring a left-hand IWB holster). I'd like to hear some thoughts on this from people who carry each way.

January 7, 2011, 05:49 PM	#3
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,213	I don't carry that way and using what was learned in training palm out for a right handed person would be the way to go. We were taught that when you place a firearm down you want to place it so when you pick it up you are placing your palm on top of the grip when grabbing the gun and not trying to get your hand under the gun ( trying to scoop it up off the table) Just my 2 schillings worth __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

January 9, 2011, 10:57 PM	#7
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 11,112	SOB carry is the mark of the inexperienced. SOB palm-out is the mark of the inexperienced that have been watching too many movies. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

January 10, 2011, 01:23 PM	#14
Long Path Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: N. Texas Posts: 5,899	When you're saying "palm in", do you mean hand to the inside of the gun, palm facing out, or do you mean hand to the outside of the gun, facing in? I prefer the latter, for better retention during draw, and more direct presentation. __________________ "Welcome to The Firing Line, a virtual community dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership."T.F.L. Policy Page Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap? ____________

January 10, 2011, 06:08 PM	#16
jfruser Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 350	Not a big fan of SOB or nearly-SOB carry. I like a nice strong-side, IWB preferred, OWB after that, and then a quality shoulder rig(1) for lots of reasons over SOB. (Maybe if I had a choice mustache and drove a red Ferrari I might think otherwise.) I think that we ought to keep in mind that "everyone ain't like me." Meaning, what works for me may not work for thee. In some cases this is due to injury, body shape, or other factors that are beyond the control of the CCW-er and not necessarily the sign of a newb or a fool. The OP may be both, but I'll assume he is not and, after voicing my preferences for strong-side carry, I think it helpful to actually attempt the answer the query. First off, one is no more compelled to sweep oneself with SOB than one is compelled to sweep one's hand/arm when carrying cross-draw or a shoulder holster. It just takes an understanding of where the muzzle is pointed and training to keep it from intersecting one's body by manipulating body or pistol. It requires 5 seconds to demonstrate live, but 15 minutes to describe. (Assuming "palm out" gun/holster orientation, where the butt is pointed roughly to the right on a right-handed shooter. Requires vertical lefty holster or left-handed cross-draw holster in SOB or near-SOB position.) 1. Get palm-out grip on pistol butt. 2. Draw IOW the angle of the holster. Up for vertical, Roughly 45deg for cross-draw. 3. Maintain wrist orientation: don't pronate, supinate, or rotate wrist through step #5. 4. While maintaining pistol, hand, wrist, forearm, and upper arm in roughly the same vertical plane, swing forearm (& wrist, hand, & pistol) away from body centerline (as viewed from behind), using your elbow as the main hinge/axis, until the muzzle is pointing directly at the ground and pistol is roughly vertical. This ought to bring the pistol out from behind your back. 5. Swing/rotate pistol forward, keeping muzzle from crossing your body. Once the pistol is at your body's centerline (as viewed from the side), it is similar to a strong-side draw, manipulation-wise. It requires some practice and is slower than strong-side. Also, strong-side provides less opportunity to sweep your body. Others have pointed out retention issues. These are all good reasons many prefer strong-side over SOB. (1) I have gotten to the place where I am no longer promiscuous with my CCW and have quality IWB, OWB/pancake, and shoulder holsters for my primary CCWs. __________________ Regards, jfruser "Books and bullets have their own destinies."----Bob Ross

January 7, 2011, 05:46 PM	#2
Microgunner Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2006 Location: Central Florida Posts: 3,324	Palm out.

January 7, 2011, 06:03 PM	#4
TailGator Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,809	I carried SOB for quite a while and grew to dislike it for several reasons that don't apply to your question. But after trying it both ways, I felt like I had better access to a firing grip on the gun by carrying it palm out. You have to reach further behind your back to get a grip when carrying palm in. I moved to 3:30 to 4:00 for carry, though, for reasons of retention and concealment. It is a bit of a problem when the shirt tail or coat tail rides up over the gun and it is behind you - out of sight of you but in full view of your audience.

January 7, 2011, 06:15 PM	#5
ripnbst Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2010 Location: Spring, TX Posts: 1,560	Laces Out...Er...Palm Out

January 9, 2011, 10:37 PM	#6
Johnnie Wadcutter Junior Member Join Date: January 16, 2009 Posts: 3	I've thought about this question as well and after doing some research it seems like you have a better chance of sweeping your kidneys upon draw.YMMV. I carry at 5:30, 'palm in' for what it's worth.

January 10, 2011, 08:58 AM	#8
Bailey Boat Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2006 Location: NC Posts: 365	Anyone that carries SOB never sits down..... OR..... is impervious to pain...

January 10, 2011, 09:17 AM	#9
LordTio3 Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2010 Location: Bloomington, Indiana Posts: 850	If I were there with you now, I could show you why you shouldn't carry palm out behind your center-line. There would be some pain, and you would almost definitely be unable to retain your pistol. When you place your pistol palm out behind your back, you are placing it in such a way that you must rotate your arm 90% of the way into a literal "arm-bar" in order to draw your weapon. Your grip on your pistol, even when gripping with full force at this angle, is extremely weak; and weapon retention under assault or struggle has just become quite unlikely. I have a friend who was about to order a left-handed belt holster (he's right handed) so that he could carry in this fashion. I told him to unload his pistol and tuck it in his belt that way turn his back to me and try to draw. Reaching behind him, I simply grabbed his hand with one of my own and rotated his palm upwards toward the ceiling, which caused him to raise up on his toes and allowed me to prevent him from turning around or moving much at all. Pain ensued. Calmly, I raised his hand up a bit further, used my other hand to draw his pistol, and gave him a little push forward. Easy as you please. Behind your center-line, palm out is a bad idea. Go with a strong side, right handed holster, palm in, at about 4:30 and never look back. You'll also avoid the spinal injuries associated with 6 o'clock carriage (which is why police officers don't carry their handcuffs there anymore). ~LT

January 10, 2011, 09:36 AM	#10
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	If you can grab a pistol on your back centerline with palm in, then you are more flexible than I am. I wouldn't carry it there, but if I did for some reason it would be palm out. I have a tough enough time with it OWB (palm in) at 4 o'clock.

January 10, 2011, 12:00 PM	#11
output Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2008 Posts: 294	I would keep body movement/motion to a bare minimum. How can you get to your firearm with the least amount of body movement, the fastest? I am guessing its palm out. Best of luck.

January 10, 2011, 01:18 PM	#13
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	I hear what you guys are saying about SOB carry. I really don't know as I have much of a choice. My hips are really boney, so 2 o'clock to 4 o'clock positions would be pretty uncomfortable for me. Belly band is one option I suppose. I already use a Smart Carry sometimes, but that requires somewhat baggy pants. I was thinking of a 5 o'clock position. That would avoid the spine issues. I just wish spring would hurry up and get here so I could start wearing shorts again. With shorts, I pocket carry.

January 11, 2011, 09:32 AM	#17
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	Move it around towards your strong side a little further and not directly over the spine. There is usually enough of a depression in the back there to still conceal well, and the reach is less strenuous (and you do not want to sweep yourself).

January 21, 2011, 02:58 AM	#18
MrDontPlay Senior Member Join Date: December 25, 2010 Posts: 587	I carry both gold plated 1911s SOB... But really I have a lefty holster and carry at about 4:30 palm out. I find it pretty easy to draw over palm in.

January 21, 2011, 07:19 AM	#19
psyfly Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 932	^^^Just like that. (I only have one with gold, though). For abour 30 years or so. I've studied it and had others observe as well, and I don't sweep anything but the floor. Do it the way you like it, as long as you are assured it's safe. I won't call you any names. Best, Will

January 21, 2011, 09:22 AM	#20
LordTio3 Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2010 Location: Bloomington, Indiana Posts: 850	....groan.... In threads like this, it's really God-awful apparent that very few people do Retention Drills. ~LT

January 21, 2011, 10:21 AM	#21
Bulldawg55 Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2010 Location: GEORGIA Posts: 196	I'd like to hear some thoughts on this from people who carry each way. Sorry, The only thought I have about your carry choices is that I'd never use either. Mostly carry at 3:45 and seldomly at 12:37.

January 21, 2011, 10:30 AM	#22
psyfly Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 932	LordTio3: Absolutely correct. I am 67 years old, I am post cardiac surgery and on limited physical activity. I don't do retention drills. Try not to worry about it so much. I did recently take a 12 week course in Krav Maga (tailored to my age and health situation) and I feel I learned a lot. Mostly, don't let anyone get that close if you can help it . Keep safe. Best, Will

January 21, 2011, 01:37 PM	#25
Wag Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2010 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 1,010	I'm inexperienced in CCW, however, I use a belly band and carry at about 3:36 and 20 seconds. And a good forward cant. It stays concealed very well under any shirt I wear which is moderately baggy. I hear a lot of tradeoffs going on in the thread which makes me think that you have to weigh the potential difficulties with the advantages of each method of carry. I'm definitely paying attention to the other posters on this thread. For a long time, I used to think I wanted to carry SOB but the realization that if I ever fell on my gun because someone shoved me, I'd be injured very very badly. Not a viable option for me. Moving it over somewhere to 4:00 to 5:00 seemed to make it impossible to conceal unless I use a mouse gun which I don't have and besides, it still seems like it would cause serious injury. My hip, on the other hand, might hurt if I fell on it but it's far more accessible to me and it's much easier to move my hip away from an attacker and still maintain the ability to ward off blows in an unavoidable confrontation. The downsides? Pretty minimal and seem to be equivalent, at least, to other carry locations. --Wag-- __________________ "Great genius will always encounter fierce opposition from mediocre minds." --Albert Einstein.