Case collapsed. Why?

[Mike38]

Please take a look at attached picture. Note the bottom cartridge, the top one is there for comparison. Cartridge is .223 Remington. Federal brass. Prvi Partisan 55 grain FMJBT bullets. Third or fourth time reloaded. How or why did the case collapse like it did? It happened while seating the bullet on the first round of a batch. I immediately stopped and took apart the die thinking something was wrong inside. I found nothing wrong. Put it all back together and continued on with 300 more rounds without a problem. What would cause this? Just a weak case? I am stumped.

[Lost Sheep]

Question: Was there more resistance on this round than on other rounds? I know at this point is will be hard to remember, and it was the first of the batch, so less of a point of reference, but this could be a clue.

First guess: Case mouth not expanded enough and there was enough resistance seating the bullet that the body of the case "telescoped" in on itself as you saw.

I reload straight-walled cases, so have little experience with this sort of failure, but have crushed a couple of cases when a bullet's base caught on a case mouth. They looked a lot like your picture.

Could your bullet be oversized? I know it is unlikely, but should be easy enough to measure.

Lost Sheep

[Mike38]

Unfortunately, I don’t recall if there was more resistance on that particular cartridge or not. Like you said, I did this a few hours ago, and then loaded 300 more, so recalling is dim.

I measured that bullet, along with 10 others randomly picked from the remaining in the box of 500 pieces. All measured .224.

Beats me what happened.

[SL1]

Could the case have been over-annealed? I suggest you check the brass and see if it is softer than the rest. If not, is it thinner than the rest.

SL1

[Hog Buster]

Federal Rifle Brass has given me more problems reloading than all the other brands put together. At this point I don’t even think about reloading it anymore, I just toss it in the scrap box.

[1chig]

Sorry , not much help i know but i had that happen on a 30-30 case one time. It looked exacly like that, one case , one time only. Never did figure it out, probably operator error

[A_Gamehog]

Check the case length, another reason is when I use the Lee Collet die and exert too much neck tension on the .223 . Then I would follow it up with another die. It would still have too much tension and unable to pass the entry point it collapses. This is usually with flat based bullets, but I think your bullets are BT?

[chris in va]

Federal Rifle Brass has given me more problems reloading than all the other brands put together.

Ditto. Hate those suckers.

[chiefr]

My experiences would be to suggest case neck is too thick. If it gets to be a problem you can ream your cases out with a neck reamer or turn down with outside neck turner.

[Waldog]

If you trimmed your case and did not use a case burr tool to break the sharp edges inside the case mouth your bullet will hang-up and crush the case.

[Shoney]

This problem is caused by improper adjustment of the seat/crimp die. It is set too low. Being too low causes the die to start crimping while the bullet is being pushed into the case.

Yes! Check the case length first.

After the cases are uniform, screw the seat/crimp die out.

Screw the bullet depth bushing out.

With a sized case in, run the ram at top dead center (TDC), some presses hit TDC then the cam breaks over and the ram goes down at full throw.

With the ram at TDC screw the seating die in until it makes firm contact with the case.

Seat a bullet, adjusting the seater bushing down until the desired length is achieved.

[Dave R]

Shoney is right about seating die adjustment. I think that's your problem. The crimper on your seating die is cruching the case. But Shoney's description of the adjustment may be incorrect for your die.

Most seater dies are set to crimp BEFORE they are screwed down to touch the case holder. If you adjust the seater to touch the case holder, you may be way-overcrimping, and causing the buckling you see in the picture. Read the instructions that came with your seater die.

IIRC, the adjustment goes something like this (at least it does for RCBS and Lee dies.)

Put a case in the caseholder. Leave your seater die unscrewed quite a bit. Lower the ram, then turn down the seater die until you JUST BEGIN to feel some resistance. That's the start of the crimper.

Leave the die there, and adjust the seater stem to seat the bullet where you want it. Now you are set to seat bullets with no crimp.

Now, if you want some crimp, lower the die another 1/4 to full turn, depending on dies/ instructions, and re-adjust the seater to compensate.

The die is still probably well off the shell holder.

Any lower than that and you start crumpling cases.

[Shoney]

Dave R

Just to clarify, I think you misread my post. I clearly said:

With a sized case in

With the ram at TDC screw the seating die in until it makes firm contact with the case.

I did not say "with the case holder".

[dlb435]

Definitely die adjustment. I've had the same thing happen until I got all the dies set properly. You've got to expect this when you install a new set of dies or swap calibers. Just part of getting the press tuned up.

[F. Guffey]

The seating die does not have case support. Crimping a bottle neck case is cute, not necessary.

Install a case in the shell holder, raise the ram, adjust the seater die down until the crimp portion of the die contacts the mouth of the case, THEN back the die off (your choice, 1/4, 1/2 3/4 turn), secure the die to the press with the lock nut and back off the seater plug, way off, you are not ready to adjust the seater die to seat bullets unless you have a made a transfer case that allows you to seat the bullet 'off the lands' in thousands. This leaves you with the seat and measure, seat and measure, seat and measure to get the desired COL (CASE OVERALL LENGTH). Competition Seater dies with bullet guides help with case support and alignment, expensive but nice.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

and then I made bullet guides for 25 cal 'anything' with shoulder and neck support, just because I have one I used an aluminum can crusher to seat bullets in a 25/284, it worked.

F. Guffey

[grumpa72]

I had identical issues when I started doing .223 for my Colt AR. It turns out that the Lee seating die was set improperly and I had too much case lube, allowing some to get on the shoulder which is a no-no. I would double check both of those.

[Nevmavrick]

It appears to me that you are trying to crimp the case before the end of the case gets to the cannelure. The mouth of the case needs to bend into the reduced diameter at the end of the shank. That case would be a little longer than the others so it wouldn't have anywhere to go as you reached the most powerful part of the lever-throw on the press. You MAY have not felt any increased pressure. Especially if you were working the handle quickly.
The first step would be to standardize the case-length of ALL the cases, not just check them against max-recommended. If you're going to crimp, make sure they are all the same length.
The next step is make sure that the bullet has a place to crimp. You've done that. You did that when you chose that bullet. Someone mentioned seating the bullet "off the rifling." You're at the mercy of the bullet-manufacturer for that measurement, if you want to crimp. If you want to change the "jump," you can set it(usually done for accuracy) but you can't crimp. You CAN if you make a new cannelure, but ONLY then. "Factory-crimp" dies, collet dies, and pushing really hard don't work! Do it right...or DON'T DO IT!
It appears to me that you're loading an auto with box-magazine.(use WHATEVER terms you wish to replace those words) You're loading to replace factory ammo, so I think you're right, just need to finesse the settings.
The military FMJ that you bought(am I right?) has a boattail, so there's no problem getting it started into the case, BUT it's a LOT better if you deburr after you trim, and maybe even if you don't trim. It's just smoother.
To set the die, put a case into the shell-holder and put the ram to the top. Screw the die in 'til it touches the case, then back it off a little, 1/2-turn or so. Then, insert a bullet into a case and start seating it until the mouth of the case matches the middle of the cannelure. Now back the seating stem all the way off, and thread the DIE in until it gives the proper crimp, just enough to hold the bullet against recoil. It it proves, later to not be enough, turn it a little more...Set the lock-ring. Now, turn the seating stem in until it touches the bullet that's still in the die. Take the next case, and install a bullet the same as before, to see if it keeps the same measurement. You may have to turn the seating-stem in a 1/4 turn or so.
I think using an uncharged case is better, then pull the bullet...but you have your own safety procedures. If you don't have an inertia-puller or collet-type, PM me and I'll "try" to figure something.
Have fun,
Gene

[1chig]

i dont know if it would be die adjustment, seems like the logical thin BUT he said he went on to load 300 rounds afterwards, doesnt make any sence, even if he didnt trim the one case, i dont think it would have crushed it that much. idk.

[old_folks]

It was with great interest that so many poeple, some of whom are experienced reloaders, suggested improper die set up, or die adjustment. I went back and read the entire thread several times looking for one thing which i never did see mentioned. I agree with A_GameHog ( post #7) that the problem is case length. No where did i see any mention of case uniform length or the cases being trimmed to uniform length. IMHO, this is the incipient problem. When cases are too long, they will engage the crimp ring of the die before the case reaches the top of the up stroke, and the weakest part of the case will give. Once case length is uniform, the die can be set, or adjusted, and all cases will engage the crimp ring at the same stage.
Sometimes the solutions are so easy they are over looked.
Happy reloading.

[Dave R]

Shoney, you're right. I misread. Apologies.

[Nevmavrick]

1CHIG-He said that the first one malfunctioned, so he took the die apart, saw nothing and reassembled it. He MAY have readjusted the die when he put it back together.
If he hadn't uniformed the case lengths, he MAY have had a problem with the longest case in the pile(301) and it just happened to be the first one. He also said it may have been loaded 3 or 4 times. If he doesn't check, and uniform, his case lengths at least every other reload, he MAY run into problems like this more often.
He doesn't say what die/press combo he's using, so it may be a progressive, and he wouldn't(probably) clean or lube the inside of the neck. There would be more drag on the decapping pin, and THAT is the biggest reason for case lengthening, not certain powders, or higher than normal pressures. Come to think of it...the same problem happens with single-stage presses.
I've seen the collapsed neck LOTS of times, but more often, the ring has formed at the mouth. Just depends on where the case want to warp first.
Somebody mentioned the Federal case. IMHO, eventho' they may be different from other cases, I can't see them being of lesser quality. I've used them for over 50 years, in auto-pistol, straight, rimmed rifle, and bottle-neck rifle and never found a problem with quality. Fact is...the only case I use in my bottle-neck pistol(T-C) is Federal.
Have fun,
Gene

[Mike38]

I could / should have given more info. Lee single stage press. Lee dies. I do trim to length at every reload. I do deburr whether the trim to length removes brass or not. I do lube the inside of the case mouth and the outside before decapping / sizing.

Now that I read all of the replies, I think I had the die set up wrong on the first attempt, then did it right after the examination. That’s the only thing it could have been. Must have been a brain fart. This case collapse has never happened to me before, and I guess it threw me for a loop, and had me concerned.

Today I finished the other 200 rounds. No problems at all. Now I’m waiting for spring when the range reopens. In the mean time, I have about 1000 rounds of .45acp to reload.

Thanks to everyone for the replies. I need to be a bit more careful.

[Uncle Buck]

Shoney Wrote:

This problem is caused by improper adjustment of the seat/crimp die. It is set too low. Being too low causes the die to start crimping while the bullet is being pushed into the case.

I had the same thing happen with my 30-30 and .30-06 when I was adjusting the die.

I only load about 500 rounds of rifle ammunition a year, and it is usually all done at the same time. The first two rounds usually look like the picture you posted. Case trim length and die adjustment were the two things I had to go back and pay extra attention to.

[F. Guffey]

I do not secure the lock ring to the die, I secure the die to the press with the lock ring meaning if in my possession there is a die, sizer or seater, with the lock ring secured to the die with the set screw, it is not my die, I adjust the die to the case every time I size a case and or seat a bullet, as far back as the 60s it was recommended not to crimp bottle neck cases unless the cases were all the same height and even then crimping reduced bullet hold (neck tension).

When crimping bottle neck cases the first tendencies is for the neck to bulge below the crimp, the bulging of the neck reduces bullet hold, after that, the shoulder bulges, back to closing the bolt with resistance, there could be 5 different reasons for resistance to bolt closing, I can not think of one good reason. Again, Dillon went with seating the bullet on one die and crimping on another, there thinking the bullet moving down while the bullet is being crimped bulges the neck, as Lyman said. I agree with Dillon but chose not to use their dies, I refused to start over with a new and different set of dies because of the expense, and I use lock out and powder dies, not possible to do on a 4 station press unless sizing and priming is done on another press OR crimping is done in another operation.

Again, I have 45s ACPs that like new store bought, factory commercial ammo, when reloading for those pistols a different technique is required with one addition operation with case support when crimping.

F. Guffey