Newbe having a rough time.....

[michaeltpo]

I'm reloading 30 06 for a Garand.

I set up my Lee FL die to the standard 1/4 to 1/3 turn extra to FL resize my cases. Note: This is with the die turned in an extra 1/4 to 1/3rd of a turn after contacting the raised shellholder.

I have an RCBS precision mic gage to check the shoulder/datum and I find that my full sized cases have readings all over the place from a plus 5 to a minus 6. I cannot produce consistent shoulder/datum readings.

Note: When normal surplus brass is ejected from my rifle it comes out at a plus 5 (or 6) so I really wanted to make my reloaded surplus cases a plus 2 or 3 to minimize case stretching and prolong the life of the brass. I would think I'd have consistently shaped cases once the die is locked down.

Should I attempt to shoot cases that have a shoulder that is a minus 5 (or -6) as referenced by the RCBS precision mic. Isn't that dangerous to stretch the brass from a minus 6 to a plus 5. Excess headspace?

My first few attempts at reloading were met with lots of soot on my fired cases and that is why I got the RCBS precision gauge. I have changed dies, shell holders and press ram piston and remounted my press. I had just gotten the RCBS gauge to check the shoulder on my reloaded rounds and find the cause of my soot problem and found I get shoulder readings are all over the place. Once the die is locked shouldn't I produce rounds that have roughly the same shoulder readings? Can I safely shoot rounds with a minus 5 or 6 as measured on the RCBS precision mic?

If you have any ideas I'd appreciate it. Thanks in advance.

[GeauxTide]

RCBS Small Base Dies.

[Unclenick]

Well, a number of things occur to me. First, is this once-fired brass from other guns? Another board member recently had an analogous problem with the .308. It turned out his old used LC brass was way over stretched in the original firing and was acting like very soft brass. Hatcher says there was also a time when .30-06 was intentionally made softer for machine guns (less chance of a head separation) while rifle brass was made harder. That kind of difference would mess with you. The main thing is that if this is once-fired brass, you may need to sort it by headstamp year or mark them and try to identify a pattern? See if the ones that shortened so much are always the same ones? If so, I would segregate them from the rest. They may be too soft for full powder loads.

So, several things need to be done. For one, measure some new brass and see what the RCBS mic says? Better yet, if you can get the loan of one, put a .30-06 GO gauge in the mic and measure that. It should be at zero. Mine is at +0.002" when I do this, so I am just suggesting you check calibration here. Let's see what you are actually measuring and how your cases actually compare to new ones?

Second, look at the rims of the cases. It is not uncommon for a self-loader to bend a rim out. The bent rim makes the case stand tall in the Precision Mic. When you resize it will make the case shove up into the sizing die a little farther and at the same time it will flatten its head some. The result is a case that measures short in the Precision Mic afterward.

I don't know what kind of press or lube you are using. When you run the ram up, look for a crack of light between the shell holder and the die at top position. There should be none. If some cases give you a light crack, they may need to have their necks and shoulders annealed.

A third thing to try, if the case heads are flat, is running the cases up into the sizer, count to five, withdraw them and rotate them 180° and run them back up in for another count of five. That can knock a should back a couple of thousandths and tends to even the cases a little.

You should not have no worry about firing the short cases except to realize they may not be good for maximum loads. They will have shortened life expectancy over cases that don't resize as far. Bear in mind that all the Ackley improved chambers with their wider shoulder angles and reduced tapers could all fire the standard parent cartridges. It's how the owners got brass to reload for them. All it did was fireform the case to the chamber. I once sat next to a fellow on the range who fired one round then asked me to look at his case and tell him if it looked normal? It had no neck; just a big rounded shoulder stopping in a hole. It said .308 on the headstamp. The rifle said .30-06 on the barrel. So, it had fireformed as far as it could, but no damage.

Your soot indicates low pressure. A lot of loads published for the Garand are now very low pressure because everyone is scared to death of bending the op rods. The actions themselves are quite strong and could probably last a lifetime of proof loads, but the op-rods would all be mangled. Op rods are getting harder to find GI replacements for. Unless you will use this rifle in as-issued matches, I suggest you get or make a vented gas cylinder plug so you can adjust the piston pressure to just operate. That will let you fire warmer loads without damaging the op-rod.

Finally, get some new brass that gets fired in your gun first, and no other. See how that measures before and after firing and before and after sizing? Remington always used to match GI case capacity fairly well, but I haven't checked recently. It would be a place to start.

[michaeltpo]

1. What is a short base die? Why wouldn't my Lee FL die shape my cases properly and consistently?

2. I'll check my go gauge. Great idea.

3. Same cases from the same rifle..

4. The rims don't seem to be bent.

5. I'm using a Lee press with Lee case lube

6. My RCBS precision mic gauge should do the same thing as the Wilson case gauge At least I think that.

7. Same lots of brass from the same manufacturer (HXP). All once fired from the same rifle. Good thing to be aware of.

8. I've shot a wide spectrum of powder loads from minimal to fairly high and still had soot. That is why I got the RCBS precision mic gauge to see if my shoulder/datums were being produced in spec.

9. I'm considering dumping the Lee Press. I don't want to blame the equipment. I just want to eliminate the variables.

10. 8. It is a Lee Challenger type single stage press. With the quick release bushings.

11. There is no gap with the die set per Lee's setup directions. I'll go and double check that.

12. Good idea on the slop in the linkage. There is no side to side movemet but it is possible for me to tighten the flanges together a little more. It is quite solid right now.

[William T. Watts]

Never mix cases (headstamp) or once twice three times fired etc, the reason for segregation is the hardness of brass varies from manufacture to manufacture and how many times a case has been fired. Depending on the hardness of the brass and how many times a case has been fired a case can and will spring back a bit after resizing (a good micrometer will prove this point). I usually purchase a Wilson cartridge case gage with each new caliber I start loading for. You can drop one of your fired cases in the gage and see how much the case has stretched, it also can be used to set your resizing die for minimal working of your cases when they are resized. One other thing the type press you have may influence how much or how little the resized case are varing, the more rigid the press the less flexing etc! Soot on a case usually means there's not enough pressure for the case to seal the chamber fully! If you have a shooting range nearby you may be able to find someone who handloads to give you a bit of help, most handloaders I encounter are willing to help if a person shows they have an interest in their hobby. Good luck. William

[snuffy]

RCBS Small Base Dies.

Well it didn't take long for the peanut gallery to speak up! Just how is a small base die going to correct the shoulder position? Answer is it won't/don't! I've NEVER needed a small base die, most never do either.

Mike, you need to give us some more info. What type of press? Are you seeing any gap between the top of the shell holder and the bottom of the die? The reason I ask this is you STILL might be getting flex in the press linkage and frame that's allowing the shell to NOT enter all the way into the die. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't, depending on how much the brass was expanded. Lube up a case, run it all the way up into the FL die. Now shine a light from behind the shell holder/die junction. If you see light or a gap, you need to screw the die in further.

If that results in the shoulder being pushed back too far, then you know you need to back the die out to achieve the amount of shoulder movement you want.

[snuffy]

I need to type faster, and not get interrupted before posting. Especially on this forum!

Lee press? Which one? If it's the chalanger, then it might be flexing a bit while full length sizing '06 brass. They're pretty strong, but tough military brass might make it give a bit. If you DO get another press, consider the Lee classic cast. It's beafier (is that a word?) than even the renowned RCBS rockchucker. Cast iron and all-steel linkage doesn't flex at all.

I have some variance with .223 when using a RCBS case mic. No more than +-.001 from where I want it. That's with Lapua brass, but have found similar readings from LC and other brass like Remington and Winchester. Federal goes in the scrap bucket if I even bother to pick it up.

[chris in va]

You're reading too much into the specifics, IMO. Only started reloading for my Garand a couple months ago but have about 500 reloaded so far from my original 1972 HXP brass, along with range pickup '78, '88 and Remington bolt fired stuff and all have worked just fine. All I do is full length size, trim and use a FCD for a bit more grip on the bullet.

[snuffy]

You're reading too much into the specifics, IMO. Only started reloading for my Garand a couple months ago but have about 500 reloaded so far from my original 1972 HXP brass, along with range pickup '78, '88 and Remington bolt fired stuff and all have worked just fine. All I do is full length size, trim and use a FCD for a bit more grip on the bullet.

Chris, what you should have said is "I've gotten AWAY WITH not measuring how much I'm setting the shoulder back". If you're setting it back over .0003, then firing those rounds, you'll end up with case head separation sooner than later.

[michaeltpo]

Anyway. I went and played around with my die setup.

Per Lees directions, the final adjustment of the die is somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 of an additional turn clockwise (down) from the point where the die contacts the sheelholder in its highest (raised) position.

In order for me to set my die to get say a plus 2 or 3 on the RCBS precision mic gauge it looks like I only can screw the die in only about 1/8th of a turn beyong the shellholder/die contact point....if even that. Is this something anyone else has seen? I don't think I can see any light between the sheelholder and the die at this point but it is hard to see.

[Unclenick]

Yes. That's normal. The die is designed to push the brass back nearer to original size, but your chamber, typical of Garands, is long enough to make that a bigger difference than a match chamber would. It was all the variation you reported that was puzzling and made me think the brass had an issue. Perhaps it was all due to you making die adjustments?

There are a couple of options available to make the shorter setback more consistent than a loosely engaged die will do. One is that Redding makes sets of competition shell holders. These are made in sets of 5 with the top part that holds onto the extractor groove thicker in 0.002" increments from +.002 up to +0.010". Using the right one allows you to set the dies up normally and to get a better "squeeze" to get past individual case variations.

The other is to make the improvised version for yourself using shim stock to make a washer the right thickness so you may drop it over each case before sizing. Since you've calibrated the Precision Mic, you can probably measure what you were getting following Lee's instructions, verses what you want. The washer thickness is just the difference.

[michaeltpo]

I borrowed a friend's press I'd been storing for him. I installed my Hornady 30 06 FL die into his old Pacific brand press and I now get fairly consistent shoulder/datum readings on my RCBS gauge. With the initial setting, I get 16 rounds from 3.0 to 1.0 and I'm happy.

Also of note: with the Lee dies (two separate ones) I was getting some rings on the datum. No apparent depth to them but they were visible like the finest of scratches and bout an 8th of an inch apart. Why I'd get these rings with two separate Lee dies made me think I might have a problem with the press itself. I have no rings with the new setup.

If I get time tomorrow AM, I'll finish loading them and test them Saturday or Sunday.

Thanks for the help.

[noylj]

I know this may be "smart ass," but buy new virgin brass. Your milage may be very different than mine, but I only need 100 cases for my .30-06 and seldom shot more than 40 in a day. I figure my brass will last the rest of my life since I am not a big rifle shooter. Most of the time is taken up waiting for the range to allow me to go down range and inspect/change targets, allow the barrel to cool, and brush the bore after every 10 shots.
If you are shooting a semi-auto, please remember that you are not shooting a benchrest rifle and the loading techniques used to shrink a group by 0.01" do not apply to your rifle. You may want to buy a box or two of factory ammo, compare them with the mic and check run-out, and get your new brass already fire-formed to your gun.

[c.j.sikes]

this is for what it is worth. some 40 years ago i shot big bore rifle. this was at a club range in odessa texas. we shot with competion from many army teams. on one ocasion the army team , using m1 grands showed up with 308 ammo only, the master sgt. said lock and load. they shot the whole match with 308 amm0 in m1 rifles, the case came out streight. worked out fine.. a friend of mine picked up a lot of the cases and later built a 45 2 in. rifle on rem. 700 action . just proves nothing goes to waste. cjs

[dmazur]

...they shot the whole match with 308 amm0 in m1 rifles...

I think the .308 case is around 0.010" larger in diameter than the .30-06 chamber is 1.560" from the head.

If the M1 chambers were very worn, I suppose this was possible, but I don't think a modern .30-06 chamber will accept a .308.