cooler burning powders for 243 win

midnightrider · July 14, 2010, 06:25 PM

Hi
I read an article on the net that 243 win. barrel life is short (1500rnds). they said that using super slow cooler burning powders would improve barrel life. but they didnt include any load data or powders.

Any anybody have any suggestions for reduced loads for target shooting or some of the cooler burning powders.

Thanks
AJ

reloader28 · July 14, 2010, 10:06 PM

I'm using IMR4831 in two 243's with excellent accuracy. You cant get much slower burning than that.

oneoldsap · July 14, 2010, 10:57 PM

Don't tell my Mod. 70 that it's only good for 1500 rounds , it passed that number many moons ago . The written word is not gosphel my friend . especially on the internet , anyone can proclaim themselves experts .

Brian Pfleuger · July 14, 2010, 11:12 PM

Peak pressure has a big influence on barrel life. Look for loads that produce less that 59,000psi. The SAAMI max psi for 243 is 60191, so you're going to be near max on those loads anyway. Typically, the last several thousand PSI is a lot of pressure and not much velocity.

For example, using default settings, QuickLoad predicts that Reloader-17 can produce 3610fps from a 65gr V-Max in a 24" barrel and the pressure is 58500psi. If you go to max SAAMI pressure of 60191, you gain only 30fps. Step it back to just 57,000psi and you lose just 27fps.

So, you're getting just 7/10th of one percent more speed for a 5.5% increase in pressure.

Jim243 · July 15, 2010, 01:44 AM

I can't speak to the powder issue, but if you keep them between 3,200 to 3,400 fps you should be ok on life of your barrel. I use H4895 without any worry. Now if you want to push them to 4,000 fps all bets are off and start looking for a replacement barrel at 850 to 900 rounds. You can still use the barrel, but your accuracy will start falling off. I use mine as a hunting rifle and shoot 223 just for plinking and general all around get the lead down range type rifle, cheaper brass and lead.

Jim

Irish80prf · July 15, 2010, 11:16 AM

I use 38 grains H4895 with 65 grain v-max bullets and it is a great round. It should be around 3500 fps out of a 24" tube. My barrel is 22" so I'm guessing I'm around 3400 fps which is fast enough for me but shouldn't shoot the barrel out to fast. I just posted in another thread this same thing but I read somewhere and I can't remember where, but the magic number to stay below is 3700 fps. With that load according to Hodgdon it is around 44,500 cup.

Kawabuggy · July 15, 2010, 11:26 AM

Along these lines, I've also noticed in looking through my reloading manuals that many of the IMR powders produce very high pressures to achieve velocities that Varget gets-but at much lower pressure. It seems to me that the IMR line is HIGHEST in pressure over most other powders. I saw a chart once that showed average barrel life expectancy by powder choice, and IMR ranked the lowest, or 2nd lowest, on barrel life. Must be some connection there between the pressure generated, and wear on the barrel. Since reading that chart, and making the observation in my reloading manuals about the higher pressure-I gave up on IMR powders. I still have several lbs. sitting here and would be willing to trade them for RL-22, or Varget if anyone is interested??? I have IMR-4350, IMR 4320, IMR 4831-all unopened. Plus, IMR powders always seemed to be very dirty in my barrels. I could shoot 10 rounds with IMR 4350 and the gunk coming out of the barrel would scare you.

Rifleman1776 · July 15, 2010, 12:07 PM

Cooler???powders???
Fast wear out of barrel in a .243??
Git new advisors.
Use what you want in accordance with good loading information.
Enjoy that rifle for years, and years and years.

Jim243 · July 15, 2010, 08:12 PM

Yes Rifleman1776 - fast wear out of a 243 barrel. We are using a 30-06 parent cartrage necked down to 6MM in a short action rifle that will push a light weight bullet past 4,000 fps. But unless you are shooting past 350 yards you do not need to load for those speeds. That will lengthen the life of your barrel. It's the same problem with the 6mm BR, 6.5 PPC and 6.8. If you are shooting compitition it's just part of the cost (barrel replacement) of the sport (300 yard, 600 yard and 1,000 yard ranges.)

Get yourself a Stevens or Savage rifle and change the stock. That will allow you to change out the barrel yourself with just a GO and NO-GO gauge (to set headspace). Bed the stock and free float the barrel and you are ready to go for another 900 rounds.

When mine wears out it will become a .308.

Jim

midnightrider · July 15, 2010, 08:38 PM

its the heat, pressure, large amount of powder, coming out of a 6mm tube that causes the short barrel life. ive read some articles since I posted this and reduced loads for the 243 and keeping the barrel clean will greatly increase barrel life for .243.

I only posted this cause I shoot my 243 alot at paper. I have less than fifty full power loads through it. and I only hunt twice a year. so I figured pumping full power handloads at paper is not good. I have found that a 85 HPBT grain bullet with a reduced load of varget is fun to shoot and very accurate. and I dont have to worry about alot of barrel wear.

reloader28 · July 15, 2010, 08:54 PM

I could really care less about barrel life. I load how I want to shoot. If it wears out, I'll rebarrel it. A gun aint much good if you have to baby it along. If your going to baby it, get rid of it.

I garentee it dont wear out near as fast as my 223WSSM, And I'm still shooting that. A new barrel is cheaper than a new gun.

Just my way of thinking, but most people dont agree.

oneoldsap · July 15, 2010, 09:12 PM

I use IMR-4064 with the 75Gr. V-Max at about 3300 FPS . It has become my pet Varmint load . If you horse anything , or max out capacity constantly , premature wear will be the result !!

Jim243 · July 15, 2010, 09:58 PM

Hay Reloader28, I agree. That 223 WSSM has to be one heck of a round. Where does that rate compared to a 22-250?

Jim

Kawabuggy · July 15, 2010, 10:01 PM

Jim243, I think you meant to say that the .243's parent cartridge is the .308-NOT THE 30-06... The -06 is a long cartridge, or considered such, and the 308/7MM-08/.243 are all short actions based on the same parent cartridge-.308

I agree with what the others have said-shoot it to your hearts content! I doubt you will wear it out. What kills barrels? Shooting them repeatedly and getting the barrel really hot without letting it cool between shots, and/or over-cleaning, or improper cleaning with implements that damage the bore.

I've never heard of a shot out .243 barrel until recently and now I'm seeing posts for it on several different sites.

P-990 · July 15, 2010, 10:21 PM

Sounds like life expectancy for somebody using a .243 to throw 100-107gr slugs at 600 yards and beyond. The 6mm is a darling of the accuracy and match rifle crowd, but most of the cases I can think of being used are quite a bit smaller than the .308-parent case of the .243 Win. (I know of one 6mm AR in circulation at the local Highpower matches, and a 6mm XC.)

Anyway, don't shoot lots of rapid fire strings and don't firewall EVERY load you run through the rifle, and that barrel will last a long time. Or get in the habit of the match shooters I hang around, and figure a rifle barrel is like car tires; when they're worn out, change 'em.

Jim243 · July 15, 2010, 10:26 PM

No, Kawabuggy, the "parent" cartrage for the 243 is the 30-06 as it is the parent cartrage for the .308 and .270.

Jim

FrankenMauser · July 16, 2010, 12:53 AM

The .243 Winchester is a necked down .308 Winchester.

The .308 Winchester is a shortened .30-06 Springfield.

The .270 Winchester is a necked down .30-03 Springfield. (You can call it '06, but it was really based on the longer-necked '03.)

Jim243 · July 16, 2010, 01:04 AM

Which came first the chicken or the egg? I'm sorry it is the Grandfather case.

midnightrider · July 16, 2010, 01:07 AM

I guess I would not be so worried about barrel life if I had set aside $250 to get it rebarreled. but I dont haha

reloader28 · July 16, 2010, 07:56 AM

Jim243,
My 223WSSM shoots alot better at the min with a 40gr at 4050fps. Even at the min there is quite a bit of erosion in the barrel. I have to go to a longer bullet now after only about 400 rounds. I'm going to try 60gr Saeco boolits and see if I can make it work. Never heard of anybody trying that.

I bought it cause I wanted an all out varmint gun and these were brand spanking new. I got the first one here. I like the gun so I figure I'll just rebarrel when it needs it.

Sorry for the hyjack.

FrankenMauser · July 16, 2010, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Which came first the chicken or the egg? I'm sorry it is the Grandfather case.

Exactly.

If we really wanted to argue about it, we could call everything a product of the .30-03.

But even then... the .30-03 goes back to the 7x57mm Mauser.

.... Which was inspired by 8x50mm Lebel .... which was based on the 11mm Gras .... which was based on an older 11mm Rimfire design .... which was based on a pinfire design.....

It all comes back to some crazy chinese, wrapping paper around "Fire Medicine".

It's just evolution.

As for the "Cooler Powders"... don't worry about it. If you're not trying to squeeze every last bit of velocity from the cartridge, it's not a big deal.
I do have two suggestions, though:

1. Don't overheat your barrel. Failing to let the barrel cool between strings does more damage than "hot" powders (if we assume there is such a thing).

2. If you're worried about the throat, use ball powders. (The throat is what usually goes first.) Extruded powders have been shown to cause erosion much faster than ball powders.

midnightrider · July 16, 2010, 06:30 PM

ive never seen a ball powder for rifle. I use alo of h-110 for magnum handgun,,,I think thats a ball powder.

Who makes ball powder for rifle?

Brian Pfleuger · July 16, 2010, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Who makes ball powder for rifle?

I think there are actually quite a few.... Hodgdon H380 is one, Winchester 748 is another.

H380 is quite famous in the 22-250, being so named because 38.0gr under a (I think) 55gr bullet was supposedly super accurate.

Jim243 · July 16, 2010, 07:07 PM

Hodgdon calls them spherical H-335 is one here is a list of others

http://www.hodgdon.com/rifle.html

Jim

Jim Watson · July 16, 2010, 07:24 PM

Joe Hendricks says H-1000 or N-165.

"With the 243 I shoot either H1000 or N165. With a 26" barrel you can acheive 3000 fps from both the 115 and the 107 bullets.

Also, every barrel for the past 10 years plus has given us 3000 rounds or more of 1/2 MOA accuracy.

You have to use only single based, slow burning powder and keep the throat smooth with a polishing compound like JB every 200 to 400 rounds.

Joe Hendricks"

Now what he would really rather you do is to use his .243CM which is an improved version, but I would not want to get into another wildcat.

July 14, 2010, 06:25 PM	#1
midnightrider Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 2010 Posts: 134	cooler burning powders for 243 win Hi I read an article on the net that 243 win. barrel life is short (1500rnds). they said that using super slow cooler burning powders would improve barrel life. but they didnt include any load data or powders. Any anybody have any suggestions for reduced loads for target shooting or some of the cooler burning powders. Thanks AJ Last edited by midnightrider; July 14, 2010 at 06:47 PM.

July 14, 2010, 11:12 PM	#4
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,694	Peak pressure has a big influence on barrel life. Look for loads that produce less that 59,000psi. The SAAMI max psi for 243 is 60191, so you're going to be near max on those loads anyway. Typically, the last several thousand PSI is a lot of pressure and not much velocity. For example, using default settings, QuickLoad predicts that Reloader-17 can produce 3610fps from a 65gr V-Max in a 24" barrel and the pressure is 58500psi. If you go to max SAAMI pressure of 60191, you gain only 30fps. Step it back to just 57,000psi and you lose just 27fps. So, you're getting just 7/10th of one percent more speed for a 5.5% increase in pressure. __________________ https://ecommercearms.com I am the owner/operator! Ask me for custom prices! No sales tax outside CO!

July 15, 2010, 01:44 AM	#5
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	I can't speak to the powder issue, but if you keep them between 3,200 to 3,400 fps you should be ok on life of your barrel. I use H4895 without any worry. Now if you want to push them to 4,000 fps all bets are off and start looking for a replacement barrel at 850 to 900 rounds. You can still use the barrel, but your accuracy will start falling off. I use mine as a hunting rifle and shoot 223 just for plinking and general all around get the lead down range type rifle, cheaper brass and lead. Jim Last edited by Jim243; July 15, 2010 at 01:57 AM.

July 15, 2010, 08:12 PM	#9
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Yes Rifleman1776 - fast wear out of a 243 barrel. We are using a 30-06 parent cartrage necked down to 6MM in a short action rifle that will push a light weight bullet past 4,000 fps. But unless you are shooting past 350 yards you do not need to load for those speeds. That will lengthen the life of your barrel. It's the same problem with the 6mm BR, 6.5 PPC and 6.8. If you are shooting compitition it's just part of the cost (barrel replacement) of the sport (300 yard, 600 yard and 1,000 yard ranges.) Get yourself a Stevens or Savage rifle and change the stock. That will allow you to change out the barrel yourself with just a GO and NO-GO gauge (to set headspace). Bed the stock and free float the barrel and you are ready to go for another 900 rounds. When mine wears out it will become a .308. Jim Last edited by Jim243; July 15, 2010 at 08:22 PM.

July 15, 2010, 10:21 PM	#15
P-990 Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2002 Location: SWNH Posts: 1,333	Sounds like life expectancy for somebody using a .243 to throw 100-107gr slugs at 600 yards and beyond. The 6mm is a darling of the accuracy and match rifle crowd, but most of the cases I can think of being used are quite a bit smaller than the .308-parent case of the .243 Win. (I know of one 6mm AR in circulation at the local Highpower matches, and a 6mm XC.) Anyway, don't shoot lots of rapid fire strings and don't firewall EVERY load you run through the rifle, and that barrel will last a long time. Or get in the habit of the match shooters I hang around, and figure a rifle barrel is like car tires; when they're worn out, change 'em. __________________ NRA Master, Highpower Rifle, Across-the-Course NRA Expert, Highpower Rifle, Mid-Range Prone

July 14, 2010, 10:06 PM	#2
reloader28 Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: nw wyoming Posts: 1,061	I'm using IMR4831 in two 243's with excellent accuracy. You cant get much slower burning than that.

July 14, 2010, 10:57 PM	#3
oneoldsap Senior Member Join Date: September 16, 2009 Location: I live in the foot of the Green Mountains of Vermont Posts: 1,602	Don't tell my Mod. 70 that it's only good for 1500 rounds , it passed that number many moons ago . The written word is not gosphel my friend . especially on the internet , anyone can proclaim themselves experts .

July 15, 2010, 11:16 AM	#6
Irish80prf Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2010 Location: north country of Missouri Posts: 245	I use 38 grains H4895 with 65 grain v-max bullets and it is a great round. It should be around 3500 fps out of a 24" tube. My barrel is 22" so I'm guessing I'm around 3400 fps which is fast enough for me but shouldn't shoot the barrel out to fast. I just posted in another thread this same thing but I read somewhere and I can't remember where, but the magic number to stay below is 3700 fps. With that load according to Hodgdon it is around 44,500 cup.

July 15, 2010, 11:26 AM	#7
Kawabuggy Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Posts: 224	Along these lines, I've also noticed in looking through my reloading manuals that many of the IMR powders produce very high pressures to achieve velocities that Varget gets-but at much lower pressure. It seems to me that the IMR line is HIGHEST in pressure over most other powders. I saw a chart once that showed average barrel life expectancy by powder choice, and IMR ranked the lowest, or 2nd lowest, on barrel life. Must be some connection there between the pressure generated, and wear on the barrel. Since reading that chart, and making the observation in my reloading manuals about the higher pressure-I gave up on IMR powders. I still have several lbs. sitting here and would be willing to trade them for RL-22, or Varget if anyone is interested??? I have IMR-4350, IMR 4320, IMR 4831-all unopened. Plus, IMR powders always seemed to be very dirty in my barrels. I could shoot 10 rounds with IMR 4350 and the gunk coming out of the barrel would scare you.

July 15, 2010, 12:07 PM	#8
Rifleman1776 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,309	Cooler???powders??? Fast wear out of barrel in a .243?? Git new advisors. Use what you want in accordance with good loading information. Enjoy that rifle for years, and years and years.

July 15, 2010, 08:38 PM	#10
midnightrider Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 2010 Posts: 134	its the heat, pressure, large amount of powder, coming out of a 6mm tube that causes the short barrel life. ive read some articles since I posted this and reduced loads for the 243 and keeping the barrel clean will greatly increase barrel life for .243. I only posted this cause I shoot my 243 alot at paper. I have less than fifty full power loads through it. and I only hunt twice a year. so I figured pumping full power handloads at paper is not good. I have found that a 85 HPBT grain bullet with a reduced load of varget is fun to shoot and very accurate. and I dont have to worry about alot of barrel wear.

July 15, 2010, 08:54 PM	#11
reloader28 Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: nw wyoming Posts: 1,061	I could really care less about barrel life. I load how I want to shoot. If it wears out, I'll rebarrel it. A gun aint much good if you have to baby it along. If your going to baby it, get rid of it. I garentee it dont wear out near as fast as my 223WSSM, And I'm still shooting that. A new barrel is cheaper than a new gun. Just my way of thinking, but most people dont agree.

July 15, 2010, 09:12 PM	#12
oneoldsap Senior Member Join Date: September 16, 2009 Location: I live in the foot of the Green Mountains of Vermont Posts: 1,602	I use IMR-4064 with the 75Gr. V-Max at about 3300 FPS . It has become my pet Varmint load . If you horse anything , or max out capacity constantly , premature wear will be the result !!

July 15, 2010, 09:58 PM	#13
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Hay Reloader28, I agree. That 223 WSSM has to be one heck of a round. Where does that rate compared to a 22-250? Jim

July 15, 2010, 10:01 PM	#14
Kawabuggy Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Posts: 224	Jim243, I think you meant to say that the .243's parent cartridge is the .308-NOT THE 30-06... The -06 is a long cartridge, or considered such, and the 308/7MM-08/.243 are all short actions based on the same parent cartridge-.308 I agree with what the others have said-shoot it to your hearts content! I doubt you will wear it out. What kills barrels? Shooting them repeatedly and getting the barrel really hot without letting it cool between shots, and/or over-cleaning, or improper cleaning with implements that damage the bore. I've never heard of a shot out .243 barrel until recently and now I'm seeing posts for it on several different sites.

July 15, 2010, 10:26 PM	#16
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	No, Kawabuggy, the "parent" cartrage for the 243 is the 30-06 as it is the parent cartrage for the .308 and .270. Jim

July 16, 2010, 12:53 AM	#17
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,774	The .243 Winchester is a necked down .308 Winchester. The .308 Winchester is a shortened .30-06 Springfield. The .270 Winchester is a necked down .30-03 Springfield. (You can call it '06, but it was really based on the longer-necked '03.) __________________ -Unwilling Range Officer -Unwilling Match Designer -NRL22/PRS22/PRO -Something about broccoli and carrots

July 16, 2010, 01:04 AM	#18
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Which came first the chicken or the egg? I'm sorry it is the Grandfather case.

July 16, 2010, 01:07 AM	#19
midnightrider Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 2010 Posts: 134	I guess I would not be so worried about barrel life if I had set aside $250 to get it rebarreled. but I dont haha

July 16, 2010, 07:56 AM	#20
reloader28 Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: nw wyoming Posts: 1,061	Jim243, My 223WSSM shoots alot better at the min with a 40gr at 4050fps. Even at the min there is quite a bit of erosion in the barrel. I have to go to a longer bullet now after only about 400 rounds. I'm going to try 60gr Saeco boolits and see if I can make it work. Never heard of anybody trying that. I bought it cause I wanted an all out varmint gun and these were brand spanking new. I got the first one here. I like the gun so I figure I'll just rebarrel when it needs it. Sorry for the hyjack.

July 16, 2010, 06:30 PM	#22
midnightrider Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 2010 Posts: 134	ive never seen a ball powder for rifle. I use alo of h-110 for magnum handgun,,,I think thats a ball powder. Who makes ball powder for rifle?

July 16, 2010, 07:07 PM	#24
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Hodgdon calls them spherical H-335 is one here is a list of others http://www.hodgdon.com/rifle.html Jim

July 16, 2010, 07:24 PM	#25
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 19,179	Joe Hendricks says H-1000 or N-165. "With the 243 I shoot either H1000 or N165. With a 26" barrel you can acheive 3000 fps from both the 115 and the 107 bullets. Also, every barrel for the past 10 years plus has given us 3000 rounds or more of 1/2 MOA accuracy. You have to use only single based, slow burning powder and keep the throat smooth with a polishing compound like JB every 200 to 400 rounds. Joe Hendricks" Now what he would really rather you do is to use his .243CM which is an improved version, but I would not want to get into another wildcat.