Jag and patch sticking in TC Omega bore

wjg686 · January 12, 2010, 02:23 PM

I have a new TC Omega Z5, which has about 30 rounds through it. At the range and in the field, if I run a patch all the way down the bore after a shot, it and the jag stick there so that the only course is to remove the breech plug and push it all the way through. This doesn't happen if I stop swabbing an inch or so higher. It never happened on my Traditions Deerhunter or my Lyman Great Plains rifle. It also happens on my brother-in-law's TC Omega. What's going on?

Bill

Pahoo · January 12, 2010, 02:45 PM

What is you shot-string? looks to me like you are getting hung up on the crud ring. In this case, the crud trap ring. That is a burnt carbon ring deposite on the top side of your load. Are you also having problems removing you breech plug?

Be Safe !!!

Doyle · January 12, 2010, 02:55 PM

Rule #1, Always remove your breech plug and swab from the breach end.

This does 2 things - it prevents the buildup of the crud ring at the bottom of the breach and it prevents any potential damage to the crown from contact with the jag.

At the range, I clean with a wet patch or two followed by 2 dry patches between each shot (all from the breech end). Yes, it makes for slow sighting in but it results in a true sightin that will be exactly what I will get when I'm hunting and shooting on a clean barrel.

wjg686 · January 12, 2010, 03:15 PM

This is after a single shot from a clean barrel. I'm using FF Triple Se7en in this rifle -- used Goex in the others. Do I really have to pull the breech plug after every shot?

Wild Bill Bucks · January 12, 2010, 03:20 PM

wjg,

Easiest solution to the problem, is to push the spit patch down the barrel far enough to engage the crud ring, and pull it up and down, a little at a time, until the patch will clean the ring out. If you shove the patch all the way down to the bottom with the first stroke, it will hang almost every time.
I can't tell you why this happens on one rifle, and not another, but as the owner of several Thompsons, I can tell you that it will happen on almost all of them.

At the risk of being blasted by the rest of the forum, I will say that the crud ring comes mostly from the primers, as well as the type of propellant you are using. I have found that with pyrodex, or 777, that if I use the 777 primers, I don't have the crud ring as bad as I do when using regular primers.
I am not a great fan of the 777 primers, as I don't get as hot of an ignition as with the others, but I have noticed that they don't leave as bad a crud ring either.

Pahoo · January 12, 2010, 03:43 PM

wjg686
Still not enough information on the shot-string. Looks like you are using loose powder. What is you primer and haow hot are you loading? ..

Quote:

Do I really have to pull the breech plug after every shot?

Not by my measure but again, how hot are you running? I never pull my breech plug in the field but again, that is dictated by my shot-string.

Quote:

At the risk of being blasted by the rest of the forum, I will say that the crud ring comes mostly from the primers, as well as the type of propellant you are using. I have found that with pyrodex, or 777, that if I use the 777 primers, I don't have the crud ring as bad as I do when using regular primers.

No push-back from me as I have seen this myself. I do see a crud ring with my musket primers but it is never a problem.

You know, most if these issues are addressed by what I call "Personal Technique". Most of it comes to you in use with the foundation in published literature. First you work on the basics and then you come up with your own paticulars. What works well for one, may not suit another.

Be Safe !!!

wjg686 · January 12, 2010, 03:46 PM

Thanks. I'm using CCI muzzleloading primers. If the crud ring is really such a problem, I guess I'll get set up with a dedicated ratcheting socket tool for the breech plug. The other problem in the field is that the ramrod with a spin jag isn't quite long enough to push all the way through the full barrel with plug removed.

I am loading loose powder, 100 grains of Triple Se7en under a 250 grain saboted XTP bullet.

With the true blackpowder rifles at the range, I'd spit patch and dry patch after every two shots. With this rifle, I've been doing it after every shot, but I've had to disassemble it frequently due to the sticking problem. Like I said, it looks like I'll just remove the breech plug at the range, and load second shots in the field without patching at all. Thanks for all the advice.

Bill

Doyle · January 12, 2010, 04:22 PM

You are running a load similar to what I use except I use the Hornady SST bullet. I've found the best primer to use with 777 is the Winchester 777 primers. They aren't quite as hot as shotgun primers and don't foul as much. Even with those, I take the time to pull the plug with every shot on the range (but not in the field).

WCW · January 12, 2010, 04:44 PM

I use a range rod that is much longer than the ramrod that usually comes with rifles. That gives you a lot more purchase if your jag gets stuck. I’ve had to assist other shooters at the range with this exact problem a couple of times. Sometimes the ramrod is so short you can barely get a good grip on it, and pliers may have to be utilized. I usually run a loose-fitting brush down the bore first to dislodge the worst fouling, and then use a wetted patch and jag. Even then, I slowly push the jag down the barrel the last couple inches of travel, and then work it down further in slow up and down strokes to clear the heaviest deposits. I use black powder exclusively, and usually patched round balls. Even with fairly mild loads and cleaning after about five shots, the crud can build up enough to get a good bite on a jag.

You just have to refine your technique a little, since it would be a really annoying thing to have your ramrod stuck in the barrel while you were out in the field. I’ve been on lots of rabbit hunts where you fire enough shots that you have to clean the bore a bit for best accuracy.

Doyle · January 12, 2010, 05:13 PM

If you are going to continue to use your original rod, get one of those super-long jags. The one I keep in my range box is about 4" long and gives me just enough extra reach to be able to keep a good grip on the rod.

wjg686 · January 12, 2010, 05:53 PM

What about using a wet nylon brush from the muzzle, followed by two or three dry patches? Could that keep me shooting more efficiently at the range?

I do have a longer range rod, and will be using it at the range from now on.

Bill

Doyle · January 12, 2010, 06:42 PM

Quote:

What about using a wet nylon brush from the muzzle, followed by two or three dry patches? Could that keep me shooting more efficiently at the range?

You could, but for cleaning between shots a spit patch works as good as you need. When I'm going to shoot, I put a patch in my mouth to get it good and wet. After shooting, I run the wet patch through, turn it over and run it through again. Then I run a dry patch, turn it over and run it through again. Then, I put the breech plug back in and reload.

Luciano · January 13, 2010, 09:20 PM

I have the same rifle and experience the same problem... Get a solid range rod that is longer and stiffer than the one that comes with the rifle. When all the way at the bottom with a wet patch try to turn the rod clockwise in spinning motion for a bit, it will make it easier to pull up. I think removing the breechplug after every shot is crazy...

eastbank · January 14, 2010, 07:53 AM

i used a a rod head that has the hole or slit in it and pull the cleaning strip threw it and push it down the barrel and when it at the bottom i twirl it around, cleaning most if no all the crud ring,but i use regular black powder, no 777 or other black powder subtiutes, they just don,t smell right. eastbank.

Wild Bill Bucks · January 14, 2010, 11:02 AM

wjg,

I use windex at the range, and spit patch to hunt. Windex will cut through about any powder, and dries a lot faster than anything else at the range. Don't use it hunting, as it has a smell that will drive deer crazy.

January 12, 2010, 03:46 PM	#7
wjg686 Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2006 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 105	Thanks. I'm using CCI muzzleloading primers. If the crud ring is really such a problem, I guess I'll get set up with a dedicated ratcheting socket tool for the breech plug. The other problem in the field is that the ramrod with a spin jag isn't quite long enough to push all the way through the full barrel with plug removed. I am loading loose powder, 100 grains of Triple Se7en under a 250 grain saboted XTP bullet. With the true blackpowder rifles at the range, I'd spit patch and dry patch after every two shots. With this rifle, I've been doing it after every shot, but I've had to disassemble it frequently due to the sticking problem. Like I said, it looks like I'll just remove the breech plug at the range, and load second shots in the field without patching at all. Thanks for all the advice. Bill Last edited by wjg686; January 12, 2010 at 03:50 PM. Reason: To add reply to last message.

January 12, 2010, 02:23 PM	#1
wjg686 Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2006 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 105	Jag and patch sticking in TC Omega bore I have a new TC Omega Z5, which has about 30 rounds through it. At the range and in the field, if I run a patch all the way down the bore after a shot, it and the jag stick there so that the only course is to remove the breech plug and push it all the way through. This doesn't happen if I stop swabbing an inch or so higher. It never happened on my Traditions Deerhunter or my Lyman Great Plains rifle. It also happens on my brother-in-law's TC Omega. What's going on? Bill

January 12, 2010, 02:45 PM	#2
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	What is you shot-string? looks to me like you are getting hung up on the crud ring. In this case, the crud trap ring. That is a burnt carbon ring deposite on the top side of your load. Are you also having problems removing you breech plug? Be Safe !!!

January 12, 2010, 02:55 PM	#3
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	Rule #1, Always remove your breech plug and swab from the breach end. This does 2 things - it prevents the buildup of the crud ring at the bottom of the breach and it prevents any potential damage to the crown from contact with the jag. At the range, I clean with a wet patch or two followed by 2 dry patches between each shot (all from the breech end). Yes, it makes for slow sighting in but it results in a true sightin that will be exactly what I will get when I'm hunting and shooting on a clean barrel.

January 12, 2010, 03:15 PM	#4
wjg686 Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2006 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 105	This is after a single shot from a clean barrel. I'm using FF Triple Se7en in this rifle -- used Goex in the others. Do I really have to pull the breech plug after every shot?

January 12, 2010, 03:20 PM	#5
Wild Bill Bucks Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2005 Location: Southeastern Oklahoma, Next door to Sasquatch Posts: 1,266	wjg, Easiest solution to the problem, is to push the spit patch down the barrel far enough to engage the crud ring, and pull it up and down, a little at a time, until the patch will clean the ring out. If you shove the patch all the way down to the bottom with the first stroke, it will hang almost every time. I can't tell you why this happens on one rifle, and not another, but as the owner of several Thompsons, I can tell you that it will happen on almost all of them. At the risk of being blasted by the rest of the forum, I will say that the crud ring comes mostly from the primers, as well as the type of propellant you are using. I have found that with pyrodex, or 777, that if I use the 777 primers, I don't have the crud ring as bad as I do when using regular primers. I am not a great fan of the 777 primers, as I don't get as hot of an ignition as with the others, but I have noticed that they don't leave as bad a crud ring either.

January 12, 2010, 04:22 PM	#8
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	You are running a load similar to what I use except I use the Hornady SST bullet. I've found the best primer to use with 777 is the Winchester 777 primers. They aren't quite as hot as shotgun primers and don't foul as much. Even with those, I take the time to pull the plug with every shot on the range (but not in the field).

January 12, 2010, 04:44 PM	#9
WCW Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2007 Posts: 132	I use a range rod that is much longer than the ramrod that usually comes with rifles. That gives you a lot more purchase if your jag gets stuck. I’ve had to assist other shooters at the range with this exact problem a couple of times. Sometimes the ramrod is so short you can barely get a good grip on it, and pliers may have to be utilized. I usually run a loose-fitting brush down the bore first to dislodge the worst fouling, and then use a wetted patch and jag. Even then, I slowly push the jag down the barrel the last couple inches of travel, and then work it down further in slow up and down strokes to clear the heaviest deposits. I use black powder exclusively, and usually patched round balls. Even with fairly mild loads and cleaning after about five shots, the crud can build up enough to get a good bite on a jag. You just have to refine your technique a little, since it would be a really annoying thing to have your ramrod stuck in the barrel while you were out in the field. I’ve been on lots of rabbit hunts where you fire enough shots that you have to clean the bore a bit for best accuracy.

January 12, 2010, 05:13 PM	#10
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	If you are going to continue to use your original rod, get one of those super-long jags. The one I keep in my range box is about 4" long and gives me just enough extra reach to be able to keep a good grip on the rod.

January 12, 2010, 05:53 PM	#11
wjg686 Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2006 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 105	What about using a wet nylon brush from the muzzle, followed by two or three dry patches? Could that keep me shooting more efficiently at the range? I do have a longer range rod, and will be using it at the range from now on. Bill

January 13, 2010, 09:20 PM	#13
Luciano Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2006 Posts: 111	I have the same rifle and experience the same problem... Get a solid range rod that is longer and stiffer than the one that comes with the rifle. When all the way at the bottom with a wet patch try to turn the rod clockwise in spinning motion for a bit, it will make it easier to pull up. I think removing the breechplug after every shot is crazy...

January 14, 2010, 07:53 AM	#14
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,511	i used a a rod head that has the hole or slit in it and pull the cleaning strip threw it and push it down the barrel and when it at the bottom i twirl it around, cleaning most if no all the crud ring,but i use regular black powder, no 777 or other black powder subtiutes, they just don,t smell right. eastbank.

January 14, 2010, 11:02 AM	#15
Wild Bill Bucks Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2005 Location: Southeastern Oklahoma, Next door to Sasquatch Posts: 1,266	wjg, I use windex at the range, and spit patch to hunt. Windex will cut through about any powder, and dries a lot faster than anything else at the range. Don't use it hunting, as it has a smell that will drive deer crazy.