357 SIG?

[DBAR]

I'm waiting on my P229 SAS to get in so I haven't started loading yet. I've been doing alot of research, but I was just curious about some of your findings. I got both 40, and 357 dies in from Lee, and I also got the factory crimp die. I picked up 1,000 once fired Speer brass, got some 125 gn bullets on the way from Roze (Zero), and I picked up a pound of Power Pistol, and 500 CCI small pistol primers. What kind of results have you people been getting? I was also kicking around the idea of lighter, and heavier bullet weights, but the round wasn't really designed with heavier bullets in mind. The experts I've spoken with say that Power Pistol, and VV are the best powders for 357 SIG.

Thanks,
DBAR

[Brian Pfleuger]

I'm a new reloader and I started with 357sig.

So far, I've used some once fired brass that is mostly Speer as well as whatever it is that Georgia Arms uses for their "Canned Heat". I also have several 100 rounds of Speer Gold Dot factory ammo but I am not reloading those cases as I have found cracks in the neck and shoulder area in 30+% of the once fired cases.

My cases, without exception, are shorter than the "trim to" length suggested in the books and all cases, without exception, are too short to headspace on the mouth as the 357sig is supposed to do. From what I've read, this is almost universally true. The factory rounds headspace on the extractor and the reloads also headspace on the extractor if I size them all the way into the 357 sizing die.

Like you, I am using a 10mm carbide die to size the cases and then running them into the Sig die. When the factory rounds are fired the shoulder is blown forward considerably. What I have done, at the suggestion of some others, is to resize the cases so that they headspace on the shoulder, leaving them about .02 below flush with the barrel hood.

I am also using Power Pistol. So far, my max load with standard primers is 8.4gr with Hornady125gr XTPs. I also loaded several rounds at 8.1gr with magnum primers. There was no physical evidence of pressure problems but I can tell you that the recoil with that load was SUBSTANTIALLY heavier than any other load.

I've also noticed that all primers that I've used, Speer Gold Dot factory ammo, Georgia Arms Canned Heat, Federal Magnum BR and Federal standard BR have all shown fairly significant flattening and minor mushrooming. This is true even at almost sub-9mm load levels, like 7.1gr PP.

Check out this picture. The two cases on the left show how far forward the shoulder is blown on firing. The two loaded rounds in the center are GA Canned Heat (brass) and Speer GD (nickle). The case with the round nose bullet on the right has been resized for proper headspacing.

[RB98SS]

I have had good luck with Blue Dot and AA#9 also. The latter can help if you run into or are concerned with setback. AA#9 loads can be compressed.

peetzakilla,

What are you firing those rounds out of? I don't see anything like that with my G33.

Here is a post that I started regarding bullets that I've tried.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...hlight=357+SIG

[Brian Pfleuger]

What are you firing those rounds out of? I don't see anything like that with my G33.

Are you referring to the case failures?

It's a G33 with 2 Lone Wolf conversion barrels and the stock barrel also. I've never experimented to see if it happens with all barrels at the same rate but it definitely happens with all barrels. Several other people have reported no problems also. I suspect that I may just have a bad batch of brass. I've never contacted Speer to see if there's a known issue. I don't really care, I've got more cases than I can ever use anyway. I just report it so that others can be vigilant.

If you're referring to the shoulder difference, it happens with all three also.

[DBAR]

peetzakilla,

You say the one on the right is set up for correct head space, but the one canned heat ones look different? Do both of those chamber ok? If they do, then I'd have to guess that the canned heat is head spaced off of the case mouth instead of the shoulder which is totally different from what I've read.

DBAR

[Brian Pfleuger]

You say the one on the right is set up for correct head space, but the one canned heat ones look different? Do both of those chamber ok? If they do, then I'd have to guess that the canned heat is head spaced off of the case mouth instead of the shoulder which is totally different from what I've read.

Yeah, the shoulder of both factory rounds (Speer and GA) is MUCH too far back. I don't remember now but it seems like their .05 or something longer in the neck than "book".

They chamber fine but..... if you drop them in the barrel when it is off the gun then they headspace on the mouth (or possibly the shoulder) but they are WELL below the barrel hood. When they are chambered in the gun the extractor pulls them back and they are not touching the mouth or shoulder, they're just hanging on the extractor. I've been told by several reputable sources that headspacing on the extractor is in fact the norm for factory auto pistol rounds, regardless of what is supposed to be.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Ok, I grabbed a couple to measure....

Book is .715 at the top of the shoulder.

My rounds properly resized to headpsace on the shoulder are .756

GA measures .685

Speer measures .716

The Speer rounds are close to "book" at the shoulder but only .858 case length.

The GA are obviously way short on the shoulder and also .858 in total length.

.858 is only .002 short of minimum, IIRC, but it is much too short to properly headspace on the mouth in my gun.

[DBAR]

peetzakilla,

That doesn't sound right. If one where to set their dies off of a factory round, it might appear to be out of spec? The factory rounds have longer necks that appear to provide more neck tension. Your re-load neck is pretty short, not providing much neck.

Anyone else have anything to add here? This doesn't seem correct?

DBAR

[Brian Pfleuger]

The factory rounds don't use neck tension to prevent set-back anyway. They crimp the rounds so tight that it actually deforms the bullet. The shoulder on my rounds is only .04 off from "book". With these cases there is no choice. They are too short to headspace on the mouth and if they are run to the max in the sizing die then the shoulder is too low to set headspace. Either way, the rounds end up headspacing on the extractor which affects accuracy and the shoulder is blown forward on every firing which excessively works the brass and shortens case life.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like the rounds to have a little more neck. My cases are all .07 short of "trim to" length. If they were longer then I could headspace on the mouth but I'd still be putting the shoulder in the same place (measured from the head), there'd just be more neck.

My setup is based on a chamber cast also, so I have the exact measurements for everything.

[DBAR]

OK, I'm learning some more about the 357 Sig. I should be good to go by the time I get my P229 SAS.

DBAR

[Brian Pfleuger]

Here's a thread that may be helpful.... from my earliest days of reloading confusion. At the time, I was trying to use some Remington 9mm bullets (shown in the picture) that I eventually abandoned. Follow the link in my first post of that thread for some good info.
Take note! The load listed in that article at 9.8gr Power Pistol is WAY over max load.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...95#post3655995

I forgot to mention about set-back, my rounds all pass the "40 pound test" which is where I use a scale and press down on the finished round with 40 pounds of pressure and measure for set-back. Once I got the crimp right, I've only had one round fail. I think that case was shorter than the others by a couple thou.

[Elkins45]

The comment about using a 10mm die and then the 357 got me to thinking about dual sizing using a 10mm carbide die for the body and then a 9mm carbide die to do the case mouth down to the shoulder. I could adjust the die WAY up into the press so I could use a full stroke on the press handle and still not move the shoulder back, or I could rig up some sort of stop on the ram to do the same thing.

Has anyone tried this?

[Brian Pfleuger]

The comment about using a 10mm die and then the 357 got me to thinking about dual sizing using a 10mm carbide die for the body and then a 9mm carbide die to do the case mouth down to the shoulder.

We are already "dual sizing". 10mm carbide for body, 357 steel for neck. I don't use any lube at all. The 357 die almost feels like it's not doing anything at all. I suspect that using a 9mm die would crush the unsupported part of the case. If you've already got the dies then it might be worth experimenting anyway.

[DBAR]

So pizza,

Basically what I understand is that the factory ammo is head spaced off of the mouth of the cartridge, and re-loads are head spaced off of the shoulder?

If this is the case, then this is a very unique round. I would rather that all of the rounds head spaced off of the shoulder. It seems to me that the brass of the factory rounds going off of the mouth are in a since slamming against the chamber dimensions. The re-loaded brass is fire formed to the chamber dimensions, and it would seem that it's a better fit for the chamber.

DBAR

[Brian Pfleuger]

Basically what I understand is that the factory ammo is head spaced off of the mouth of the cartridge, and re-loads are head spaced off of the shoulder?

Nope. The factory ammo headspaces on the extractor. The cases are too short to headspace on the mouth and the shoulder is too far back to headspace there.

The factory rounds essentially fireform to the chamber. If I am correctly understanding what is happening, the case is being pushed back into the breech face and the shoulder is blowing forward and forming to the chamber. If the case was resized without moving the shoulder at all then the headspace would essentially be "0", if the case is resized according to the instructions with the die set then the shoulder is set back to near factory specs and the round will headspace on the extractor again. In order to achieve some semblance of proper spacing, the shoulder only needs to be moved back enough to achieve proper spacing, which is .02-.03.

[Loader9]

The 357 die almost feels like it's not doing anything at all.

That's mostly because the 357 Sig is a misnomer. It is not a .357 caliber bore but a .355 bore or 9mm. Max bore diameter per SAAMI is .3555, Using a .357 mag die will result in low neck tension and bullet set back during chambering will occur causing a spike in pressure or extremes in pressures. Accuracy will suffer. The better bullets for accuracy are usually a fairly blunt bullet of .3555 diameter like a plated Rainier or Berrys.
From Handguninfo website:
The correct bullet size and shape is a critical step to minimizing bullet setback. A main reason West Coast Bullets and Rainier Bullets work excellently in the 357 SIG caliber is because they happen to measure .3555. The SAAMI maximum for the 357 SIG bullet diameter is .3555.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Loader9

That's mostly because the 357 Sig is a misnomer. It is not a .357 caliber bore but a .355 bore or 9mm. Max bore diameter per SAAMI is .3555, Using a .357 mag die will result in low neck tension and bullet set back during chambering will occur causing a spike in pressure or extremes in pressures. Accuracy will suffer. The better bullets for accuracy are usually a fairly blunt bullet of .3555 diameter like a plated Rainier or Berrys.

We're not talking about using a 357mag die. It's a steel 357sig die placed AFTER a 10mm/40SW carbide die. The 357 die is sizing only the shoulder and neck, that's why it feels like it's doing almost nothing... it is.