Handloading for HD questions

rodwhaincamo · September 29, 2009, 02:28 PM

I will be buying reloading equipment soon, and will be experimenting with bullet penetration and performance. I live in an apartment and need to be cautious of rounds going through external walls. I currently am using Glaser Safety Slugs, but have heard that they can penetrate walls, and that they are poor on penetration. I will be testing this. I own a 4" 44 Mag with a ported barrel. I am wanting to know about powders that won't create a blinding flash, and if there are any bullets that fragment easily. It was suggested that I use lead 44 Spl rounds. Any thoughts on that? Also any suggestions on a quality inexpensive reloading setup (I have plenty of spare time so speed is a nonissue). Anything I should steer away from? I know virtually nothing about this.

Brian Pfleuger · September 29, 2009, 02:41 PM

You can't load something that won't penetrate walls.... unless your walls are concrete.

A shotgun with birdshot is going to be just about the least wall penetration you can find while still being absolutely devastating at HD ranges. Glaser safety slugs are about as close to birdshot in a shotgun as you're going to get without using a shotgun..... but I'd use a shotgun.

A 44mag with just about ANY solid bullet is going to go a LONG, LONG ways through typical sheetrock, insulation and 2X4 walls.

The suggestion of using lead 44spl rounds will only help because the lead will flatten to somewhat reduce penetration and the spl is "weaker" than the magnum. I'd guess that those bullets will still go through nearly half a dozen (or more) typical interior walls, depending on how many 2X4s it actually hits.

**Unclenick** · September 29, 2009, 02:48 PM

If you use commercial bullets (and you should search on past liability discussions on the matter of handloads in self-defense), then dropping in some .44 Special loads like the Winchester SilverTip loads, might make some sense. If you are going to roll your own, just use the .44 Mag cases and avoid duplication of purchases.

Reloading can be got into for under $200. You just need a load manual with instruction, something like the Lee 50th Anniversary Breechlock press kit, for which there are instructional videos on line. A set of 44 Special/.44 Mag dies (the one die set does both), bullets, powder, and primers.

There are frangible bullets, but obviously anything that breaks up easily to avoid over-penetration of the building will achieve less penetration of the bad guy, as well. The use of expanding low velocity (for a magnum) rounds like the one I just mentioned is another strategy, the idea being the expansion is going to slow the bullet. The problem is that if you miss, a not infrequent issue in combat, the hollow point will clog with wallboard and won't like behave any differently than a same-weight solid beyond that point. For that reason, I tend to favor a bullet that is light weight and soft but has a flat frontal surface. In something the size of the .44, that will behave as well as a pre-expanded 9 mm or .38 for stopping effect. The softer bullets flatten better on hard objects, then slow still more rapidly. I would be casting fairly soft 180 grain wadcutters for that chambering for apartment dwelling SD, though getting into casting is probably more than you want on your plate before you learn to reload. Another option to reduce bullet weight and penetration would be .44 Shot cup loads. Speer makes the cups, and at very close range, before the shot opens up, they enter almost like a same-weight bullet, but have less penetration.

NWPilgrim · September 29, 2009, 02:57 PM

First, many will advise against reloading for self defense due to legal risks. Not a big issue in my thinking, but you should make your own choice.

Anything that won't penetrate a wall probably won't penetrate enough in a person either. Not reliably at various distances. Can you be sure the bad guy will stand in the open lightly clothed? Or may he hide behind a corner or the sofa while he takes shots at you? I am not a fan of frangibles for self defense as it pre-supposes ideal target conditions.

The .44 Special ballistics is nearly the same as a .45ACP, so it would be a great home defense round. Something like a 200 gr hollowpoint at 800 - 900 fps would be good.

In general, use a faster powder to reduce flash: Red Dot, Bullseye, AA #2, WW231, HP38. I can't vouch for any of these as I don't pay attention to this aspect. The principle is that a quicker powder will more completely burn within the barrel and less burning gases are expelled beyond the muzzle.

Brian Pfleuger · September 29, 2009, 03:14 PM

Check out this video, done by Rob Pincus on The Best Defense.

rodwhaincamo · September 29, 2009, 03:21 PM

My neighbors are downwind from my bedroom. Assuming that a miss would likely have to penetrate both of our exterior walls to enter their abode. I would load mag cases to spl or less pressures. I know a guy that is a carpenter and figure I can get scraps to use as test medium (2 ext walls and and interior wall to boot). Was hoping someone had a direction to get me started in as I don't have the means to test everything, which is one reason I will be handloading. My revolver is a Taurus, and can't handle much more than the typical mag loads. I'm also wanting to make hardcast hog loads since, from what I've seen, they only come in the maxxed out or very light loadings. I live in San Antonio, TX where it's very hot and humid for nearly 7-9 months, and only mildly cold for a month or so for our "winter." Penetrating both ext walls and still having plenty of umph outweighs not "having enough" umph to penetrate well enough in an attacker. Chances are slim to none I'll ever need to fire at a perp anyway, but I can't risk my neighbors well being in the process. I figure a downloaded 44 Spl couldn't perform any worse than a 32 ACP. I would prefer to have nearer 500 ft/lbs +, but unless I move I'll just have to deal with my situation as is.

QBall45 · September 29, 2009, 04:51 PM

No matter how you load em, the 44 will penetrate through all walls of your apartment.

I'm sorry,but you are in for buying a shotgun. 12ga 7 1/2 shot is going to be the ticket for you. Its going to provide slug like performance at SD/HD ranges. Yet it slows rapidly upon hitting the first layer of sheet rock. Most of the shot will become harmless on exit of the back side of the first wall. It may pepper the face of the second wall, but usually fails to penetrate.

Use of any handgun round is going to cause penetration through at least 3 walls & usually a 4th. This is true for 9mm, 40S&W, & 45ACP. Your 44special is sure to act much the same as these.

I'm unable to put up the link, but take a look at Tom Grisham's www.GunTalkTV.com
there you should find some videos covering penetration.

Old Grump · September 29, 2009, 04:53 PM

Old thread from a year ago about my favorite for the '44' in magnum or special, the 250 gr LSWC Keith bullet:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/....php?p=2999741

Jeff H · September 29, 2009, 06:47 PM

FWIW gluelets I have shot in 45acp can punch a hole in a sheet of drywall and they are only powered by a primer. I would think any 44 load would go through lots of walls.

**Unclenick** · September 29, 2009, 08:38 PM

Lots of good arguments for the 12 Ga. HD system, aren't there?

kv501 · September 29, 2009, 09:18 PM

Removed by author due to goof up.

Sorry all.

rodwhaincamo · October 2, 2009, 11:51 AM

It was suggested to use birdshot out of a shotgun. A shotgun is at the bottom of my list. Found out you can buy shotshell casings to load yerself. What do you think of loading 'em with say # 4 or even 2? My main concern is penetrating both exterior walls.

GeauxTide · October 2, 2009, 01:54 PM

Great video.

QBall45 · October 2, 2009, 02:50 PM

If the concern is over penetration. As in going through exterior walls. I would not use #4 or #2 as these will go through.

Try an experiment.
Get yourself 8 empty gallon milk jugs filled with water. Line em in 2 rows 1 behind the other. The fun starts here... Shoot 1 row with 7 1/2 shot & the other with #4. Do the shooting from 30 feet. (This would likely be max HD distance. Let us know which has more penetration & is then more likely to exit the exterior wall.

The answer is that you really want to use light weight 7 1/2 shot target loads in your HD shotgun. At normal HD distances this rd will drop any BG like they hit in the head with a hammer. Bird shot as close range barely makes it out if the shot cup causing it to ask like a solid.

In the end... I sleep with my 45ACP on the head board loaded with Speer GD's.

September 29, 2009, 02:28 PM	#1
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	Handloading for HD questions I will be buying reloading equipment soon, and will be experimenting with bullet penetration and performance. I live in an apartment and need to be cautious of rounds going through external walls. I currently am using Glaser Safety Slugs, but have heard that they can penetrate walls, and that they are poor on penetration. I will be testing this. I own a 4" 44 Mag with a ported barrel. I am wanting to know about powders that won't create a blinding flash, and if there are any bullets that fragment easily. It was suggested that I use lead 44 Spl rounds. Any thoughts on that? Also any suggestions on a quality inexpensive reloading setup (I have plenty of spare time so speed is a nonissue). Anything I should steer away from? I know virtually nothing about this.

September 29, 2009, 02:48 PM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,743	If you use commercial bullets (and you should search on past liability discussions on the matter of handloads in self-defense), then dropping in some .44 Special loads like the Winchester SilverTip loads, might make some sense. If you are going to roll your own, just use the .44 Mag cases and avoid duplication of purchases. Reloading can be got into for under $200. You just need a load manual with instruction, something like the Lee 50th Anniversary Breechlock press kit, for which there are instructional videos on line. A set of 44 Special/.44 Mag dies (the one die set does both), bullets, powder, and primers. There are frangible bullets, but obviously anything that breaks up easily to avoid over-penetration of the building will achieve less penetration of the bad guy, as well. The use of expanding low velocity (for a magnum) rounds like the one I just mentioned is another strategy, the idea being the expansion is going to slow the bullet. The problem is that if you miss, a not infrequent issue in combat, the hollow point will clog with wallboard and won't like behave any differently than a same-weight solid beyond that point. For that reason, I tend to favor a bullet that is light weight and soft but has a flat frontal surface. In something the size of the .44, that will behave as well as a pre-expanded 9 mm or .38 for stopping effect. The softer bullets flatten better on hard objects, then slow still more rapidly. I would be casting fairly soft 180 grain wadcutters for that chambering for apartment dwelling SD, though getting into casting is probably more than you want on your plate before you learn to reload. Another option to reduce bullet weight and penetration would be .44 Shot cup loads. Speer makes the cups, and at very close range, before the shot opens up, they enter almost like a same-weight bullet, but have less penetration. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; September 29, 2009 at 02:57 PM.

September 29, 2009, 03:14 PM	#5
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,694	Check out this video, done by Rob Pincus on The Best Defense. __________________ https://ecommercearms.com I am the owner/operator! Ask me for custom prices! No sales tax outside CO!

September 29, 2009, 04:53 PM	#8
Old Grump Member in memoriam Join Date: April 9, 2009 Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in Posts: 3,144	Old thread from a year ago about my favorite for the '44' in magnum or special, the 250 gr LSWC Keith bullet: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/....php?p=2999741 __________________ Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster--

September 29, 2009, 08:38 PM	#10
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,743	Lots of good arguments for the 12 Ga. HD system, aren't there? __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

September 29, 2009, 02:41 PM	#2
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,694	You can't load something that won't penetrate walls.... unless your walls are concrete. A shotgun with birdshot is going to be just about the least wall penetration you can find while still being absolutely devastating at HD ranges. Glaser safety slugs are about as close to birdshot in a shotgun as you're going to get without using a shotgun..... but I'd use a shotgun. A 44mag with just about ANY solid bullet is going to go a LONG, LONG ways through typical sheetrock, insulation and 2X4 walls. The suggestion of using lead 44spl rounds will only help because the lead will flatten to somewhat reduce penetration and the spl is "weaker" than the magnum. I'd guess that those bullets will still go through nearly half a dozen (or more) typical interior walls, depending on how many 2X4s it actually hits. __________________ https://ecommercearms.com I am the owner/operator! Ask me for custom prices! No sales tax outside CO!

September 29, 2009, 02:57 PM	#4
NWPilgrim Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,357	First, many will advise against reloading for self defense due to legal risks. Not a big issue in my thinking, but you should make your own choice. Anything that won't penetrate a wall probably won't penetrate enough in a person either. Not reliably at various distances. Can you be sure the bad guy will stand in the open lightly clothed? Or may he hide behind a corner or the sofa while he takes shots at you? I am not a fan of frangibles for self defense as it pre-supposes ideal target conditions. The .44 Special ballistics is nearly the same as a .45ACP, so it would be a great home defense round. Something like a 200 gr hollowpoint at 800 - 900 fps would be good. In general, use a faster powder to reduce flash: Red Dot, Bullseye, AA #2, WW231, HP38. I can't vouch for any of these as I don't pay attention to this aspect. The principle is that a quicker powder will more completely burn within the barrel and less burning gases are expelled beyond the muzzle. __________________ "The ultimate authority ... resides in the people alone. ... The advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation ... forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition." - James Madison

September 29, 2009, 03:21 PM	#6
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	My neighbors are downwind from my bedroom. Assuming that a miss would likely have to penetrate both of our exterior walls to enter their abode. I would load mag cases to spl or less pressures. I know a guy that is a carpenter and figure I can get scraps to use as test medium (2 ext walls and and interior wall to boot). Was hoping someone had a direction to get me started in as I don't have the means to test everything, which is one reason I will be handloading. My revolver is a Taurus, and can't handle much more than the typical mag loads. I'm also wanting to make hardcast hog loads since, from what I've seen, they only come in the maxxed out or very light loadings. I live in San Antonio, TX where it's very hot and humid for nearly 7-9 months, and only mildly cold for a month or so for our "winter." Penetrating both ext walls and still having plenty of umph outweighs not "having enough" umph to penetrate well enough in an attacker. Chances are slim to none I'll ever need to fire at a perp anyway, but I can't risk my neighbors well being in the process. I figure a downloaded 44 Spl couldn't perform any worse than a 32 ACP. I would prefer to have nearer 500 ft/lbs +, but unless I move I'll just have to deal with my situation as is.

September 29, 2009, 04:51 PM	#7
QBall45 Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2008 Location: South Central Minnesota Posts: 584	No matter how you load em, the 44 will penetrate through all walls of your apartment. I'm sorry,but you are in for buying a shotgun. 12ga 7 1/2 shot is going to be the ticket for you. Its going to provide slug like performance at SD/HD ranges. Yet it slows rapidly upon hitting the first layer of sheet rock. Most of the shot will become harmless on exit of the back side of the first wall. It may pepper the face of the second wall, but usually fails to penetrate. Use of any handgun round is going to cause penetration through at least 3 walls & usually a 4th. This is true for 9mm, 40S&W, & 45ACP. Your 44special is sure to act much the same as these. I'm unable to put up the link, but take a look at Tom Grisham's www.GunTalkTV.com there you should find some videos covering penetration.

September 29, 2009, 06:47 PM	#9
Jeff H Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2009 Posts: 176	FWIW gluelets I have shot in 45acp can punch a hole in a sheet of drywall and they are only powered by a primer. I would think any 44 load would go through lots of walls.

September 29, 2009, 09:18 PM	#11
kv501 Member Join Date: March 9, 2008 Posts: 18	Removed by author due to goof up. Sorry all.

October 2, 2009, 11:51 AM	#12
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	Shot Shell Loaded With # 4-2? It was suggested to use birdshot out of a shotgun. A shotgun is at the bottom of my list. Found out you can buy shotshell casings to load yerself. What do you think of loading 'em with say # 4 or even 2? My main concern is penetrating both exterior walls.

October 2, 2009, 01:54 PM	#13
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,514	Thanks PeetzaK Great video.

October 2, 2009, 02:50 PM	#14
QBall45 Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2008 Location: South Central Minnesota Posts: 584	If the concern is over penetration. As in going through exterior walls. I would not use #4 or #2 as these will go through. Try an experiment. Get yourself 8 empty gallon milk jugs filled with water. Line em in 2 rows 1 behind the other. The fun starts here... Shoot 1 row with 7 1/2 shot & the other with #4. Do the shooting from 30 feet. (This would likely be max HD distance. Let us know which has more penetration & is then more likely to exit the exterior wall. The answer is that you really want to use light weight 7 1/2 shot target loads in your HD shotgun. At normal HD distances this rd will drop any BG like they hit in the head with a hammer. Bird shot as close range barely makes it out if the shot cup causing it to ask like a solid. In the end... I sleep with my 45ACP on the head board loaded with Speer GD's.